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View Full Version : The draft is the problem


Dick Bull
09-20-2004, 08:46 AM
Think about it. When Carolina was an expansion team they picked up all the veterans to win now. Bit them in the ass cause they had no infusion of young talent. Winning right away is good, but if you arent grooming young talent then it's gonna catch up with you.

The only first round draft picks we've had in the last 4 years is L J and he does real good job keeping the bench warm and Sims who isn't really dominating.

jcroft
09-20-2004, 08:48 AM
Sims isnt a "real first round draft pick?" What, number isx isn't high enough?

Dick Bull
09-20-2004, 08:51 AM
Sims isnt a "real first round draft pick?" What, number isx isn't high enough?

OMG, I totally forgot Sims.

Anyway 2 out of 4

Saulbadguy
09-20-2004, 08:53 AM
This thread sucks.

Phobia
09-20-2004, 09:01 AM
I agree with the premise of this thread. The arrogance of personnel department is really hurting us. We've had clear weaknesses in several areas of the team and they've been ignored in order to reach for players we didn't necessarily need. Then they turn around and fail to fill those holes through UFA or trades. I know injuries hurt, but they're part of the game. If you've prepared your depth properly during the offseason, they can be overcome. If not, you get what we're seeing in KC.

This year, we needed help at RT, WR, and LB. We got a DT, H-back, and Guard with our 3 first day picks. All three decisions blatant mistakes that day and glaringly moreso obvious today.

Dick Bull
09-20-2004, 09:06 AM
This thread sucks.

From what i've heard for $5 you do too.

:)

ck_IN
09-20-2004, 09:14 AM
I'd say you're right on the money. DV's drafts have been a total mess.

Our player eval genious (CPS) has drafted the likes of snoop minis, eric downing, omar easy, shunard harts, eddie freeman, billy baber. We traded up to get Sims when Henderson was available at our previous spot. DV and CP have drafted some of the biggest busts and reaches this side of Cinci.

DV's drafts have been a joke and now the lack of talent he's brought in is starting to surface.

Ralphy Boy
09-20-2004, 09:28 AM
This thread sucks.
I was hoping for more myself.

I'll add it. J Diddy, you might very well have some point in that, but the bottom line is these are our players. They have to learn how to be the defense we need, or they'll be replaced. The problem is that there isn't a lot of other guys lined up waiting for a chance who can play any better. If I were Gun, I'd give each of them a stay after school 100 hits on the tackle sled chalkboard punishment until they get it right.

I can deal with an occassional blown assignment, what I can't deal with is poor fundamentals and a lack of heart. If you have a lack of either but a great deal of the other, it can be enough to compensate. But they have neither right now.

The offense has taken a tone, it appears to me, that they are professionals but are relying on their previous reputation as having been the best in the league for the last couple of years. That may not be true of everyone of them, but I would say that Green, Roaf, Gonzo & T Rich aren't playing with a lot of heart. It is also true of the coaching staff who did nothing notable to get better on offense. I know they drafted Kris Wilson and Sammy Parker, but those weren't notable additions. We've had a glaring weakness for a #1 WR since 2001 and everyone here knew needed addressing. Everyone took the tone that if the defense could just be top 15, our offense could carry us.

We are now last in our division standings, the 20th rated offense in yards, the 26th rated defense in yards and the 32nd rated defense in points. Trent has a 53.9 QB rating, a 50% completion %, no passing TD's & 2 Int's. The stats are obvious, i'm just pointing them out for the hell of it.

Ralphy Boy
09-20-2004, 09:31 AM
On a side note, I can't help but be happy for teams like Detroit & Cincy who I have felt have made some good choices in personnel & coaching the last couple of years.

jcroft
09-20-2004, 09:33 AM
OMG, I totally forgot Sims.

Anyway 2 out of 4

No worries. I do agree with your general point.

LVNHACK
09-20-2004, 09:36 AM
From what i've heard for $5 you do too.

:)


ROFL

ChiTown
09-20-2004, 09:40 AM
I agree with the premise of this thread. The arrogance of personnel department is really hurting us. We've had clear weaknesses in several areas of the team and they've been ignored in order to reach for players we didn't necessarily need. Then they turn around and fail to fill those holes through UFA or trades. I know injuries hurt, but they're part of the game. If you've prepared your depth properly during the offseason, they can be overcome. If not, you get what we're seeing in KC.

This year, we needed help at RT, WR, and LB. We got a DT, H-back, and Guard with our 3 first day picks. All three decisions blatant mistakes that day and glaringly moreso obvious today.

Yep. While reading this, let's keep in mind that this is really our last year to make a legit run with the core of this team.

Going into this year, we had no pass rush, no ability to stop the run, marginal LB's, and only 1 decent CB. Then, as we were all begging, we all knew we neded a WR that could get separation. How did we address this:

Pass Rush - We get a rookie DE in the 4th RD who looks like he has some potential, but he isn't going to be able to really bring it for a while. Not to mention, our starters of Holliday and Hicks are probably the Worst in the AFC West

Stopping the run - We added Lionel Dalton and rookie pick Jr. Siavii. Remarkable, Dalton looks like a good addition, but Siavii still looks like a kid who needs technique help. Sims is leveling off at non-existent, which is good :rolleyes:

LB's: Well, we addressed OLB with a rookie - Keyaron Fox, who won't see much, if any, of the field in 2004. Then, we are forced to move Beisel to starting MLB, where he has never played before. Good thing we have reliable depth in place :rolleyes: But, all is not lost, we still have Kawicka "I have never met a play that I haven't overplayed" Mitchell. He looked stellar on Sunday, not.....

CB: Have no fear, we drafted a Safety in 2003 (J. Battle) to move to CB. He's been outstanding thus far, so much so, that McCleon is the starter. Dex was just terrific in coverage yesterday, NOT! Other than that, we have the rookie Bennie Sapp, and Will Bart to pick up any fallen pieces. Makes you want to grant sainthood to Warfield, doesn't it?

WR: My favorite. We went balls-to-the-wall making sure we were ready at WR in 2004. Don't talk to me about Boe and K Wilson, that wouldn't have solved the problem. Ladies & Gents, we need a WR with speed and someone who can get separation. Did you see the pathetic route running by our WR's? Horrible.....Good thing Rich Smith is bringing those reliable preseason hands to the reg season table. While it was painfully obvious we needed a FA WR for this team, it was completely lost on the arrogance of CP and DV.

Right now, I blame the 1st two losses on the aforementioned two culprits. They thought they could just bring the same ole' shit that got beat at home in the playoffs last year, and waltz into the SB. What a crock of shite! We did absolutely nothing to help this team, well except for getting rid of our kickers, it's the same ball club from 2003, we're just older (not a good thing at all). Hey, I was fooled as well, prior to the start of the season. I bought into the "all we need is Gunther" mantra, after beeing beat into submission. Not anymore. Gun, or no Gun, this team lacks the right personnel. I'm tired of Carl and his BS. It's time for a change.

Dick Bull
09-20-2004, 09:43 AM
First and foremost, I didn't want to pull this long drawn out conversation of the draft and so forth and so on. I am not voyager. I don't listen to draft stuff non stop, and except for 2 days a year could care less about draft day. My point being is they loaded up on old timers rather than making sound draft judgements.

I know Kiper isn't they god of drafts, however if every organization in the world lists a guy as a potential 1st rounder, why pass on him to pick a guy that everyone in the world knows isn't going be picked until the 4th round.

Is it cockiness or trying to find a diamond in the rough?

Furthermore, I could have started this thread saying the Chiefs drafts blow ass and then a great conversation could of ensued. The posts make the thread not the starter.

KC Jones
09-20-2004, 09:46 AM
I'd say you're right on the money. DV's drafts have been a total mess.

Our player eval genious (CPS) has drafted the likes of snoop minis, eric downing, omar easy, shunard harts, eddie freeman, billy baber. We traded up to get Sims when Henderson was available at our previous spot. DV and CP have drafted some of the biggest busts and reaches this side of Cinci.

DV's drafts have been a joke and now the lack of talent he's brought in is starting to surface.

No, it goes further than Vermeil. Our drafting record has been abysmal for a much longer time. We don't have much to show for our drafts from Gunther's era or even the late Marty era. Frankly you have to say our personnel department hasn't been as good as other departments around the league. There are others that have been worse, but ours isn't near as good as some of the top teams.

We'll see what happens this year and next, and then hopefully someone will clean house at Arrowhead and rebuild the organization from the inside out.

Dick Bull
09-20-2004, 09:48 AM
I'll add it. J Diddy, you might very well have some point in that, but the bottom line is these are our players. They have to learn how to be the defense we need, or they'll be replaced. The problem is that there isn't a lot of other guys lined up waiting for a chance who can play any better. If I were Gun, I'd give each of them a stay after school 100 hits on the tackle sled chalkboard punishment until they get it right.


Will they really be replaced....

Now really...............

Dick Bull
09-20-2004, 09:51 AM
No, it goes further than Vermeil. Our drafting record has been abysmal for a much longer time. We don't have much to show for our drafts from Gunther's era or even the late Marty era. Frankly you have to say our personnel department hasn't been as good as other departments around the league. There are others that have been worse, but ours isn't near as good as some of the top teams.

We'll see what happens this year and next, and then hopefully someone will clean house at Arrowhead and rebuild the organization from the inside out.

I'm kinda hoping that is what is getting ready to happen with the whole Lamar calling CP out about ticket prices in the public.

I think if Lamar wants to do it then it probably needs to be NOW. Cause like the rest of our team, he ain't getting younger. Lord knows I don't want the Chiefs to go the way of the Royals.

ChiTown
09-20-2004, 09:53 AM
Lord knows I don't want the Chiefs to go the way of the Royals.

In the NFL, that's impossible. You always have the money to reload and get back into the game. Problem is, you have to have the right braintrust to get you there. Braintrust? Well, it's more like Brainfart right now at 1 Arrowhead Drive.

KevB
09-20-2004, 09:55 AM
No, it goes further than Vermeil. Our drafting record has been abysmal for a much longer time. We don't have much to show for our drafts from Gunther's era or even the late Marty era. Frankly you have to say our personnel department hasn't been as good as other departments around the league. There are others that have been worse, but ours isn't near as good as some of the top teams.

We'll see what happens this year and next, and then hopefully someone will clean house at Arrowhead and rebuild the organization from the inside out.

Bingo. Our drafts have been garbage for awhile. We've made some nice veteran acquisitions (Green, Roaf, Wiegman), and got lucky on some (Priest, Waters). We are getting very limited help from our last 5 or 6 drafts, and that's no way to win a Super Bowl.

ck_IN
09-20-2004, 10:02 AM
<i>No, it goes further than Vermeil. Our drafting record has been abysmal for a much longer time. We don't have much to show for our drafts from Gunther's era or even the late Marty era. Frankly you have to say our personnel department hasn't been as good as other departments around the league. There are others that have been worse, but ours isn't near as good as some of the top teams. </i>

I agree that our drafts with Marty weren't great but at least we got some decent defensive players. With DV we've gotten nothing. Our previously average drafts have become pathetic under DV.

Outside of Fuji I can't think of a single pick of the DV era that I'd even consider average.

Dick Bull
09-20-2004, 10:10 AM
<i>No, it goes further than Vermeil. Our drafting record has been abysmal for a much longer time. We don't have much to show for our drafts from Gunther's era or even the late Marty era. Frankly you have to say our personnel department hasn't been as good as other departments around the league. There are others that have been worse, but ours isn't near as good as some of the top teams. </i>

I agree that our drafts with Marty weren't great but at least we got some decent defensive players. With DV we've gotten nothing. Our previously average drafts have become pathetic under DV.

Outside of Fuji I can't think of a single pick of the DV era that I'd even consider average.


I like blaylock and Sims, sims was the undisputed top d lineman coming out.

BigChiefFan
09-20-2004, 10:10 AM
Yep. While reading this, let's keep in mind that this is really our last year to make a legit run with the core of this team.

Going into this year, we had no pass rush, no ability to stop the run, marginal LB's, and only 1 decent CB. Then, as we were all begging, we all knew we neded a WR that could get separation. How did we address this:

Pass Rush - We get a rookie DE in the 4th RD who looks like he has some potential, but he isn't going to be able to really bring it for a while. Not to mention, our starters of Holliday and Hicks are probably the Worst in the AFC West

Stopping the run - We added Lionel Dalton and rookie pick Jr. Siavii. Remarkable, Dalton looks like a good addition, but Siavii still looks like a kid who needs technique help. Sims is leveling off at non-existent, which is good :rolleyes:

LB's: Well, we addressed OLB with a rookie - Keyaron Fox, who won't see much, if any, of the field in 2004. Then, we are forced to move Beisel to starting MLB, where he has never played before. Good thing we have reliable depth in place :rolleyes: But, all is not lost, we still have Kawicka "I have never met a play that I haven't overplayed" Mitchell. He looked stellar on Sunday, not.....

CB: Have no fear, we drafted a Safety in 2003 (J. Battle) to move to CB. He's been outstanding thus far, so much so, that McCleon is the starter. Dex was just terrific in coverage yesterday, NOT! Other than that, we have the rookie Bennie Sapp, and Will Bart to pick up any fallen pieces. Makes you want to grant sainthood to Warfield, doesn't it?

WR: My favorite. We went balls-to-the-wall making sure we were ready at WR in 2004. Don't talk to me about Boe and K Wilson, that wouldn't have solved the problem. Ladies & Gents, we need a WR with speed and someone who can get separation. Did you see the pathetic route running by our WR's? Horrible.....Good thing Rich Smith is bringing those reliable preseason hands to the reg season table. While it was painfully obvious we needed a FA WR for this team, it was completely lost on the arrogance of CP and DV.

Right now, I blame the 1st two losses on the aforementioned two culprits. They thought they could just bring the same ole' shit that got beat at home in the playoffs last year, and waltz into the SB. What a crock of shite! We did absolutely nothing to help this team, well except for getting rid of our kickers, it's the same ball club from 2003, we're just older (not a good thing at all). Hey, I was fooled as well, prior to the start of the season. I bought into the "all we need is Gunther" mantra, after beeing beat into submission. Not anymore. Gun, or no Gun, this team lacks the right personnel. I'm tired of Carl and his BS. It's time for a change.
Well said. I really believe Carl as a GM is the root of the problem. He sucks.

jcroft
09-20-2004, 10:14 AM
I like blaylock and Sims, sims was the undisputed top d lineman coming out.

Was Blaylock a DV draft? Seems like that was the year before he got here...

Dick Bull
09-20-2004, 10:18 AM
Was Blaylock a DV draft? Seems like that was the year before he got here...

DV first year

Draft history (http://www.drafthistory.com/teams/chiefs.html)

BigRedChief
09-20-2004, 10:20 AM
Dalton and Salivi made some plays in there not the # 1 pick Sims.

Last years #1 is sitting in front of a fan on the sidelines.

For every Tony G we get 6 years of bad picks. There is no excuse for blowing the number 6 pick in the draft. Thats where Ray Lewis was picked.

KCTitus
09-20-2004, 10:22 AM
For every Tony G we get 6 years of bad picks. There is no excuse for blowing the number 6 pick in the draft. Thats where Ray Lewis was picked.

Actually, I think you mean Jamal Lewis...Ray Lewis was the 26th pick in the first round in 96

BigRedChief
09-20-2004, 10:49 AM
Actually, I think you mean Jamal Lewis...Ray Lewis was the 26th pick in the first round in 96
Whatever. The 6th pick in the draft should at least be a solid 10 starter(barring injury) average a pro bowl or two durint that time

Dick Bull
09-20-2004, 10:50 AM
Whatever. The 6th pick in the draft should at least be a solid 10 starter(barring injury) averaage a pro bowl or two etc.


Sims missed almost all of his rookie year with an injury

ck_IN
09-20-2004, 10:57 AM
yes he did but I think he's been in the league for two more years since then. He's contributed nothing. And the rookie injury excuse is long past relavence.

ChiefsCountry
09-20-2004, 11:01 AM
Instead of LJ, we could have had Boss Bailey. Instead of Junior, we could have had Rashaun Woods. Our two biggest problem areas: LB and WR.

Personally, here is my opinion on how teams should draft. Other than being a crapshoot but oh well. First, don't draft on potential draft on production in college. Most cases this works.

Second, stick fairly regionally. Chiefs example: Big 12, Big 10, Pac-10, and SEC West area (small colleges in these areas too). Players know the area and are comfortable in it. Most of the Chiefs best players over the years are from those schools. Len Dawson, Bobby Bell, Neil Smith, Derrick Thomas, John Alt, Priest Holmes, Will Shielfs, Tony Gonzalez etc.

Third, pick the best player available not the player that fits your biggest need especially in lower rounds.

htismaqe
09-20-2004, 11:30 AM
Instead of LJ, we could have had Boss Bailey. Instead of Junior, we could have had Rashaun Woods. Our two biggest problem areas: LB and WR.

Personally, here is my opinion on how teams should draft. Other than being a crapshoot but oh well. First, don't draft on potential draft on production in college. Most cases this works.

Second, stick fairly regionally. Chiefs example: Big 12, Big 10, Pac-10, and SEC West area (small colleges in these areas too). Players know the area and are comfortable in it. Most of the Chiefs best players over the years are from those schools. Len Dawson, Bobby Bell, Neil Smith, Derrick Thomas, John Alt, Priest Holmes, Will Shielfs, Tony Gonzalez etc.

Third, pick the best player available not the player that fits your biggest need especially in lower rounds.

You contradicted yourself.

ChiefsCountry
09-20-2004, 11:35 AM
You contradicted yourself.

Bailey was the best player when we picked last year, and Woods was this year. It just happened that those were our two biggest areas of need. Sorry about that.

Dick Bull
09-20-2004, 12:15 PM
Bailey was the best player when we picked last year, and Woods was this year. It just happened that those were our two biggest areas of need. Sorry about that.

Last year, based on college stats LJ would have been the better pick, epecially not knowing about the running back situation.

tonyetony
09-20-2004, 12:22 PM
Did anyone notice Chris Gamble yesterday? He was well within reach for us this year but we traded down for wilson and junior when we did not need to. We could have all 3 easily.