See? :D

I was just about to point that out, lolz!

Probably helped KU that Duke lost at home to an unranked team...

Wow...ku was clearly kissing somebody's ass. Lose and move up? Oh well. I think ku has to win out at this point to get that #2 seed. If they wind up losing one more in the regular season, and then not win the Big 12 tourney, they would go into the NCAA tourney with 7 losses. That is a lot of losses for a 2 seed.

ku did drop to #10 in the espn/coaches poll:

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-bask...kings/_/poll/2

Nice to see all the Kansas fans here. I assume you've stopped pretending that you don't care about Mizzou anymore.

Maybe you can tell your coach to grow up and do the same.

If Baylor wins out(except for ISU), and Iowa State wins out... Big12 is ours! :)

ku fans only care about educating us Saul. KC_Connection said so.

I for one only came by to congratulate you.

You maybe mad, but i'm too lazy to bump the KU thread. Man that was funny, tell your coach to grow up? Bill Self? LMAO

Don't hold your breath.

Hmmmmm 'think your education got you on that one.

When it comes to the ku/Mizzou situation, Self is being a big baby. Even the pundits on tv think ku is being stupid about it. I did not hear any of them comment that ku was in the right in their stand on the issue.

Why? Seems fair to me.

They played against a higher ranked seed in a tough environment and damn near won. KU proved that they are easily a top 10 team in that game and made a stronger claim than ever for a top 5(ish) spot.

They're a lot better than I thought they were. They certainly didn't deserve to drop after that game.

7th in the AP and 10 in USA Today... 4th in Sagarin and 3rd in kenpom. Tied for most wins against the top 25 with OSU and Kentucky (4-3 though).

If they sweep Baylor, it's fair to say KU is a higher #2, right? And he has MSU as a #2... MSU also has 5 losses, the same record vs top 50 (7-4) and two fewer games vs top 25 (3-2). Their SoS is right up there with KU though (KU is 2nd and MSU is 9th). UNC has a losing record against the top 25 (2-3) and has been mediocre against the top 50 (4-3).

If Baylor wins Wednesday, they would have a good argument for a #1 or the highest #2... KU has some more work to do, and there's not a big difference in that group of teams, but they have a pretty good argument for being in the Midwest, IMO.

This was supposed to be a low expectation season though, so granted I'm not arguing about success or a high seed, I'd almost rather see them go into the tourney as a 2 seed in the west or a 3 seed, so maybe they'll play with a chip on their shoulder... not that it really matters, I'm just preparing for the full reerun that will take place around here if they end up a 1 or 2 seed and lose in or before the SS. Outside of Kentucky and Syracuse (with Melo, at least), I don't have much confidence in any team this year.

I don't think you should be rewarded for losing. I expected them to either stay the same, or wind up around #9, or #10 at worst.

If Mizzou were to lose at Lawrence by only three points, would you expect them to stay at #4 or drop?

But Duke sure did after losing at home to Miami.

Mizzou would've been losing to a lower seed on the road; I'd expect them to drop to around 6 or 7 at that point.

Duke lost - they had to go down. And KU didn't do anything to show that anyone behind them deserved to leapfrog over them. They essentially did stay the same, its just that Duke moved behind them with a bad loss.

Meh. Not really that fired up about it. Although I would say that if Mizzou was the #8 team, and Duke lost ahead of them, and they lost to #4 ku at allen fieldhouse, I am not sure Mizzou would move up in that situation. ku is getting the benefit of their reputation, which is no big deal in basketball, since everything is decided come tournament time.

One could spin ku moving up by saying that the voters showed Mizzou some respect by saying ku lost a very high quality opponent. I can live with that. :thumb:

RULES

No, they aren't... the 3 teams around them -- Duke, MSU, and UNLV -- all lost, and the voters have made it obvious that Murray State has hit a wall around #10. KU lost by 3 on the road to a higher ranked team, and the two teams that could have jumped them both lost... Florida moved from #12 to #8 because of the other losses... 4 spots for beating South Carolina and Vanderbilt.

KU was also up by 8 points with 2 minutes left on the road against a highly ranked team.

And that highly ranked team had to have everything happen perfectly to pull out the win.

There are not many reasons to move a team up in the rankings if they lose but this would be the exact scenario when it works.

Rankings ain't going to mean shit when the letdown comes tonight at Oklahoma.

Hope I'm wrong and if so please shovel me a large plate of crow because I'll be more than happy to take it.

****!

I'm sorry, this violates my stated policy of never agreeing with Wickedson under any circumstances. "Agreement by omission", where I know what he probably has to say but lack any affirmative confirmation of it, is okay. However, once he starts actually putting ink to paper and articulating positions that match mine, it's time to re-think my stance.

So I've changed my mind - KU should actually have fallen out of the rankings because of that loss. They showed the charmin-esque mental toughness of an true NIT champion on Saturday. A legitimate top-25 team would never have let the moment get the best of them like that.

And Bill Self smokes pole.

There, I feel better now.

When did one of the pundits say KU was wrong?

All I heard them saying was that it was an unfortunate and upsetting situation but never did any of the announcers call out KU. Maybe I missed this?

Please provide a link or transcript when one of them said KU was being "stupid". I'd be very interested to hear that.

Like I said, lots of things were going on where I was during the game. I easily could have missed Vitale, Shulman, or one of the guys on the panel say that.

hehe

I think the AP poll is a case of them moving up on the basis or reputation and having a "good loss". They dropped two spots in the coaches poll. At the end of the day, it is nothing to get your panties in a wad for. ku has a great hoops reputation..that is a great thing for your school. Where ku ranks does not hurt Mizzou in anyway, hell, it improves our SOS, and it was a great win that will help our seeding come tournament time. Teams do not usually move up after losing, but at the end of the day, it means very little.

The ranking will not mean squat if ku does not win in Waco this week. Mizzou's #4 ranking will not mean much if they do not win tonight in Norman. The only thing that really counts right now is winning. Rankings are fun to banter about and talk about, but it is the performance on the court in the next few weeks that is going to decide the season.

All three teams have destiny in their hands. They also all have to play each other in the next few weeks. Winning is the only thing that matters now, we are in the home stretch of one the best conference races that I can think of in my lifetime.

Dickie V. put is on Bill Self. Said the rivalry should continue, and that if Bill Self were to say ku would play, that the AD and administration would go along. 4

Everyone said the rivalry should continue. Everyone pointed out that Mizzou is willing. Everyone pointed out that Kansas was the jilted wife whiny about divorce...that analogy just makes ku looks dumb on its own, by the way. If you think the announcers and pundits on Saturday were supportive of ku's position, you are more stupid than we give you credit for.

I understand where you're coming from, but how many mulligans do the Hawks get? KU has 5 losses. The 6 teams ranked above them have 12 total losses. The 3 teams behind them that round out the top 10 have 8 combined losses, and one of those teams beat Kansas on a neutral floor.

really??

Missouri is leaving for the SEC, there is nothing for KU to gain by playing that game.

I didn't watch any of the gameday stuff.

Were all the panelists calling KU a "jilted lover" and calling them "stupid"?

I didn't get that feeling from the broadcast at all.

They mentioned Self's agreement with the Baylor coach's quote about wanting to "Date" your ex-wife (nice editing there, Holly).

And Vitale and Shulman proceeded to comment on the analogy and disagree with the conclusion.

The heads made it clear that they felt KU was being petty.

What if Maryland left the ACC? Would Duke go out of their way to schedule them?

True - 5 losses is a hell of a lot of losses for a top 7 squad at this point.

That said, who really deserves to be ahead of them? I still can't convince myself that MU deserves their 4th slot, but I can't find many teams out there that deserve to move ahead of them based on resume.

Kansas has lost 3 games to teams in the top 5, right? 1 more to a top 20 team in ISU that's on fire right now, and then their bad loss to Davidson. As a voter, don't you set that loss off against their win vs. OSU? We all know that Sullinger not playing is the reason KU won it, but its STILL a W against the #2 team in the country.

5 losses is a bunch, but seeing what I've seen so far this year, I couldn't move any of those teams ahead of KU in good conscious.

No, but Maryland is Duke's Kansas State.

What if North Carolina left the ACC?

Yeah, I'm thinking they'd keep playing each other.

Or you can just go with the standard beaker line of "seriously, the MU game has never been that important to us", as though that's actually believable. I'm sure that KSU/KU rivalry has really been your biggest one all these years.

Is Texas scheduling A&M anymore?

That rivalry is as old as KU-MU.

And the University of Texas is the biggest cockholster in organized college athletics.

When you're citing the actions of UT to justify your behavior, you should probably re-consider what it is you're doing.

Texas can eat a whole bowl of dicks.

I would rank them as follows:

1. Kentucky
2. Syracuse
3. Ohio State
4. Mizzou
5. Baylor
6. North Carolina
7. Florida
8. Duke
9. Murray State
10. Georgetown
11. Kansas

Just because Texas has made the same bone headed decision does not make it right. The pundits on Saturday listed a ton of rivalries throughout college basketball that occur with teams from different conferences.

And yes, if Duke or NC were to change conferences, I would bet that they would still figure out a way to play every year.

Using Texas to justify ku's decision just shows how ku is nothing more than UT's bitch.

eh, I'm not really concerned about it.

If they play, they play. If they don't, they don't.

I was just curious to hear about other rivalries ending because the way MU fans talk around hear you'd think this was a completely unprecedented thing that the University of Kansas is pulling.

And that obviously is not true.

You really think Kansas wouldn't curbstomp Murray State? And Duke's had 2 lousy losses this season (the Miami loss is as bad as Davidson). I certainly don't see anything that Georgetown has done to impress me.

I guess I can buy putting Florida ahead of them and I think NC has the most talent in the nation so they can stay as well. But I don't see how you could put them any lower than 8.

UT's bitch?

Being associated with UT has lead Kansas to many great athletic achievements and monetary advantages.

I don't think the University has a single regret being involved with that powerhouse.

Texas/A & M is the only other rivalry you can cite that is ending in the same way. Meanwhile, they are at least 10 long standing rivalries between teams from different conferences that continue each and every season.

Nope - there are clearly other schools having asshurt little temper tantrums right now in addition to Kansas.

Meanwhile rivalries like Iowa-ISU, UGA - GT, Clemson - SC, WVU - Pitt, ND - USC and ND - Mich continue to thrive and generate plenty of entertainment for their respective fanbases.

Thank God some of those programs didn't have petulant children like Zenger, Self and Dodds running the show whenever a rough patch came along.

If the KU administrators would simply call it what it is - petty resentment - I wouldn't give them so much grief about it. But that's exactly what this is all about.

Worst part is they have the perfect place to play.


Just take out the Illinois game for the Tigers and KU can drop some someone, play at the Sprint center in December.

Done.

So....uh....UT's bitch then?

Mizzou better get their heads on straight. They're headed into Norman, and OU swept KSU this year. They can play. I hope we don't see another meltdown like the OSU loss after the Baylor game. Need to stay focused on the big picture, winning the Big 12.

Kansas told Missouri if they left they wouldn't play them, that's it and that's all.

I agree with most of this, although I would probably put Murray State at 11, Georgetown at 9, and ku at 10. If you swapped ku and Georgetown, I would not be terribly upset. I agree with DJ, I think ku, as well as Georgetown, would stomp Murray State in a heartbeat.

I was going to start arguing until I saw Murray State and Georgetown... no need to go full reerun, it was actually a decent discussion for a little while.

Yep, and ku is looking foolish for doing so. You have confirmed the point many of us have made.....the rivalry is ending at ku's choosing. ku bears the responsibility for it...that's it and that's all.

It isn't as big a rivalry to us that it is to you, sorry bro.

Whatever. It sure seems like it to me. Just look at the ku posters over the last 24 hours or so. Hell, KC_Connection is probably still off somewhere arguing about the refs. Sure seemed like you guys cared on Saturday night and Sunday. Some of us Mizzou fans have even tried to shift the focus of the thread to tonight's game with OU, but you ku fans are having none of that.

Fine, I'll argue... Florida's most impressive wins have been FSU when FSU was playing like crap and MSU.... and they're the only top 15 team with a SoS over 90 (101). Only one win against the top 25. Plus everything you said about Georgetown and Duke.

But, Florida @ Kentucky, Duke @ UNC, and KU @ Baylor are all this week... so, meh.

Georgetown and Murray State over KU?

Explain? And I hope your reasoning goes beyond their records...

On Murray State:

1. Teams should be ranked based on their bodies of work. I think UNC might beat any team in the country, but I'm not putting them at #1 because their body of work doesn't support it.

2. I'm not betting the farm on a Bill Self coached Kansas squad versus a mid major after December. I've seen enough Scooby Doo episodes to know that the ghost is really the motel owner in a rubber mask.

Carry on dude, sorry to ruin your day.

Whatever. Go back to drinking your kool-aid about aliens curing cancer in the DC forum, or whatever your tin foil hat is telling you to post about today.

LMAO

Whatever you want to believe is fine. Free country.

Some KU fans say they don't care about Mizzou nearly as much as Mizzou cares about KU, then the Mizzou fans mock KU fans whenever they even think about talking about Mizzou.... and then they don't get it when Mizzou leaves and KU isn't begging to continue the rivalry with a non-conference opponent.

As far as who's to blame though, it's just something else to bitch about. If the tables were turned, the conversations would be, too... both schools would blame each other using the same logic that's being used now.

There it is! Knew that one was coming.

Guys - KSU has been their biggest rival all along. Duh.

Since I was at the game I watched the replay last night after the SB and color me shocked when I learned that Frank had yet to see The Outlaw Josey Wales.

Murray State's body of work:

SoS: 305
Top 25 record: 0-0
Top 50 record: 2-0

This is kind of like saying, well we know MU won't make the final four [see: history]...so I don't want to rank them that high.

After review, I would put KU ahead of Georgetown. I forgot about their loss to Pitt.

You can make the Murray State argument all the way down the rankings, but you have to put them somewhere. Kansas has 5 losses. I haven't seen anything out of them that says they are anything more than a solid team.

5 losses is 5 losses, and 23-0 is 23-0.

KU is better than probably 5-6 teams that you have in front of them (and has actually beaten three of them).

The fact that the majority of the voters in these ridiculous polls are too lazy to look past largely meaningless records doesn't mean that you have to do the same.

So the five losses ku has should just be completely disregarded then?

They did just barely pull out a victory against Southeastern Missouri St. at home earlier this week, though. Impressive stuff.

No, simply put into context. KU has played one of the toughest schedules in the country this season, this can't be ignored.

I agree, losing to MU by 3 points at MU is not impressive at all. Anything better than a solid team would have curbstomped MU last Saturday night.

And it is not, they have by far the most losses of any team in the team 10. They are not being slighted in any way for their schedule.

So Kansas is a top 5 team in your eyes? There are only 4 ranked teams with more losses than Kansas.

Meanwhile, you think that Kansas should be ranked higher than any team with 5 losses. Okay. I agree with you.

But wait. You think Kansas should be ranked higher than any team with 4 losses. Wow. That's a bold statement, but I'll listen.

Hold the phones. Now you think a 5 loss team that has lost 2 of its last 3 should be ranked higher than any team with 3 losses? Run along. This conversation is over.

Florida has 4 losses, and UNC has 3... not really by that far. And the polls are week to week... KU fell 5 spots when they lost to Davidson and 3 spots after losing to ISU... not only because of who they lost to, but what the teams around them did. And they're also tied for the most top 25 wins and top 50 wins in the nation, and their SoS is #2, while 5 of the 7 teams ahead of them in the AP poll are 50+.

If they played the same weaker schedule that many of the other top 10 teams played, though, they wouldn't have 5 losses. If they played Murray's schedule, for example, they'd be winning in blowouts every game. It's all relative.

So you think ku is being slighted..where would you put them in the rankings? #5? #4? Tell me where you think they should be. I think they have a good ranking where they are, maybe a bit high (a spot or two, I have already said I would put them around 9 or 10), but enough to make a stink about, but apparently this is a touchy subject, so I would like to hear where you think they should be ranked and why?

About 5th-6th sounds right, yes. It's quite clear that they are very much on MU's level considering they played them to a near draw on the road.

You are describing a very narrow-minded way of evaluating teams, without any emphasis put on context and schedule. The voters aren't supposed to vote on who the teams with the best records are. They're supposed to vote on who they perceive the best teams to be.

In other words, they'd be a better team if they didn't have to play the Missouri's, Iowa State's and Davidson's of the world.

Gotcha. :thumb:

And what is the most considered factor is determining which teams are best? Record has to be the first factor, and then scheduling behind that.

A five loss team in the top five seems to be a bit much, I think they would be overated at that point.