You are clueless if you think Martin ever had a choice. As if there would be no backlash for choosing not to participate.

Not clueless at all. He most certainly did have a choice. There are consequences for most choices in life. Backlash or not, he had a choice. He made one didn't he? Any backlashes because of it?? Yep. You're the one whose clueless if you think he didn't.

This is apparently worse than we thought. This isn't about racism. This isn't about homosexuality. Jonathan Martin may be a well-spoken black man who votes Republican and invests his money wisely. I don't have any evidence of this, it's just a theory, so don't jump on me for "blaming the victim".

This was a story before the n word was ever used or before anyone knew it was incognito. The idea that this story was built on race is silly.

I don't really care about martin. I enjoy this story because it is fun reading about incognito. One of those stories where each revelation is more train wreckier than the last.

When you fight the monster, you become the monster. Who wants to pick up sociopath tendencies? When you're pushed to the limit? You use what you have seen worked before. No matter how awful.

Yep. Add to it that Incognito is white, Martin is half black and you have the perfect narrative to feed the perfect storm. This will be historic before all is said and done.

It will reach new heights because race is involved. To think otherwise is silly.

You are clueless to the environment of hazing and whistle blowing. When the choice is to play along, or ruin everything for yourself, that is barely a choice.

If you say so.

I love all the fat old white high school heroes calling Jonathan Martin a pussy. Yep, huge puss... "what's that honey? Apple picking this weekend? Yeah, sure. love to."

this is a mess because a lot of the players seem to be willing to go to bat for Ritchie regardless of skin color whereas the media and fans want to torch him.

So it sounds like the players know this falls on the Dolphins FO/Coaches, and Ritchie was their scapegoat.

I've only heard Wallace so far.

Fwiw, I don't think its about race.

ROFL rep

Incognito is an asshole and went way over the line. I don't see anyone condoning what he did. I still don't know why a 24 year old 6'5" 320 pound super jock can't stick up for himself, it's lame.

You know Martin may just be the brainchild here and realize the potential goldmine he is looking at without even breaking a sweat.

Sometimes you have to make difficult choices. It's called life.

Martin went to an upscale private high school in West Palm Beach, then attended Stanford. I'm certain he's an extremely intelligent individual that just so happens to be a very good football player.

Being a super-athlete doesn't mean he has anger issues or can't control his emotions when confronted, which seems to be the biggest question surrounding these incidents.

He obviously didn't "fight" Incognito because that's not in his nature.

I thought Martin went to some ritzy prep school in LA? But I agree, he probably just isn't that "type" of person to start a fight over whatever was going on.

You're right, my bad. He went to Harvard-Westlake, which costs like $25k per school year (not including donations).

The fact that Martin is smart and well spoken probably didn't help his soft reputation. People expect their football players to be mouth breathing full reeruns like Incognito.

So...?

One of the interesting things is the several Dolphins players that don't seem bothered by Incognito's use of the n-word. They just seem kind of like, "yeah, so."
And I've heard more than one media member sort of indignant that there's no outspoken reaction from them. Like, "Hey, your apathy is taking this story line away from us. Be outraged."

You probably know the most how tough or soft they both are. You should probably go tell the Dolphins players.

miami is a tire fire of an organization... they can't get out of their own way. Look players are going to stick up for teammates...Hell, the chiefs stuck up for Belcher. That doesn't mean that said player (incognito) is not a problem.

No, but let's just assume we all know all the facts and what's best for their organization based on some media reports and opinion pieces.

what is your point? Mine was that too often people - dumb foot players - equate a soft spoken intelligent guy - as soft. whereas, a loud pile of shit like Incognito is celebrated as barney bad ass - a real player's player.

@AdamSchefter: De Smith is calling a meeting with agents of Dolphins OL Jonathan Martin and Richie Incognito in FLA to discuss how damaging situation is.

Again, what are you talking about? You want to wait and see...what for? The ****ing trial? The made for TV movie? What do you need to see or read before you come down on whether Richie Incognito is a pile of shit? Spoiler alert: he is.

Amazed how many people back incognito...Martin may be a panzy but Richie is the biggest pos around no doubt

Funny how perceptions are, I think most people expect their football players to be roll models and positive members of the community.

Other than a couple players who think this is overblown who is all these people you speak of? Names please

This story was big because of implications of bullying and extortion. We didn't know race played a part until a day or two ago. I didn't even consider race until we heard incognitos voice mail. And frankly, I still don't really care about either's race.

I don't know about all that but putting the team reerun in charge of toughening people up and management being involved in any way in the participation of hazing is ridiculous. They need to clean house.

You are naive if you think a football locker room mirrors life. It is comical that anyone thinks martin choosing to just say no was all that had to happen. There are consequences. That's the nature of hazing. In the case of the Nfl, it can be a career ending choice. Y

Extortion?

I think everyone recognizes that Incognito has some character problems. You don't get kicked off of two college teams and your first NFL team if you are a model citizen.

But there are all kinds of unknowns left in this story. We don't know how much of whatever Incognito did was ordered/condoned by his coaches and how much was overboard freelancing. We don't know the details around why Martin was the target. We don't know why Martin left the team. We don't know why Incognito's teammates seem to side with him over Martin. To simply say Incognito is a pile of shit and nothing else matters is as ridiculous as saying that Martin is a pussy so he probably deserved whatever he got.

You mean like his teammates and his father? Because it doesn't really seem like he's being backed by many others.

Aren't you the same guy saying it was reasonable to call for coach and front office firings?

I phrased it wrong...some people in the thread seem to want more info on what happend before thinking incognito was wrong or made matters worse. Most don't seem to support him outside a few phins

I doubt you know what the locker room dynamic was or why his teammates and coaches considered him soft.

But, thanks for the speculation, I guess.

I haven't seen anyone support what Incognito did irregardless of how they may feel about Martin. Then again I have only seen a small percentage of the posts in this thread which is why I was asking for names.

Who? I haven't seen that.

seaofred has commented several times he thinks there had to be something more going on, and that perhaps Martin instigated the response.

They forced him to pay $15k for a Vegas trip he didn't attend

I never said Martin instigated the response. In fact, I said Richie was most likely just a scum bag. I have just been saying there has to be more to the story. I didn't/don't want to condem Incognito until we have all the facts and with the reports coming out that the coaches told him to "Toughen" Martin up, I think that was a wise choice.

Those seem like pretty reasonable things to wonder about. That's a far cry from putting all the blame on Martin or absolving Incognito.

Forced?

Try forcing me to give up 15 grand. or 5 grand. or 5 ****ing dollars. Unless you have a gun to my head, kiss my ****in ass.

Nobody forced him.

Coerced him maybe, but forced sounds like an excuse for him not standing up for himself.

Sure, Incognito is a douche, and that doesn't make the shit he did right, but Martin is as much to blame. Stand up for yourself. Be a man!

But extortion implies some sort real power over the person being extorted.

What could the DB actually done to him.

Don't get me wrong I think RI is a dirt ball, history tells us that.

But I really don't now how much real power one had over the other.

Yeah, I was never putting any blame on Martin and absolving Incognito. Basically just wondering the rest of the story. But if you didn't come straight out with torches and pitch forks you were automatically on Incongito's side.

That's how it always seems to go around here. *sigh*

Get players to take cheap shots at him at practice, outcast him in the locker room, snitch to coaches that he was a bad teammate, snitch to the organization that he wasn't getting along with others, harass the living shit out of him, convince others to also harass the living shit out of him. Incognito was on the leadership council so he had the power to also be a snitch.

Martin is in a job where almost 100 percent of his time is spent with teammates or with the team. There is a reason hazing hasn't stopped. Because historically players who don't go along have their lives made a living hell. For some reason, incognito extended the hazing past rookie season. And potentially, this was a practice encouraged by the coaches.

I agree, I just don't like to term "extortion" in this situation.

Like I said RI is a dirtball and he done doubt is a bully.

I don't think he will play in the NFL again and I have a hard time seeing any blame on JM.

Where did you read that players were taking cheap shots at him in practice? What other players were harassing the living shit out of him as you put it? Incognito was the snitch on the leadership council? Interesting.

Apparently you never golfed at the country club with a set of Dick's Sporting Goods on special Wilsons and a $15 club dollar bag filled with a sack of discount balls from the local driving range.

Lot's of shit talking that brought a man to tears. Almost felt sorry for him by the time I was done. Almost.

:D

:D

No, he won't play in the NFL ever again because he's a real meany who bullied a guy...LMAO Deal is he CAN PLAY so someone WILL give him another chance. Martin's the one who will never play again, mainly because he can't, but he wanted out anyway so...

Somewhere Conrad Dobler is laughing at all of this as well as all the other "Old School Enforcers" who are still alive.

Extortion (also called shakedown, outwresting, and exaction) is a criminal offense of obtaining money, property, or services from a person, entity, or institution, through coercion.


Not knowing anbything more than we do, we can't PROVE extortion, but from the outside looking in, senior teammates asking for or expecting for financial gain from the rookies (dinners, entertainment, trips) via peer pressure or under fear of punishment certainly qualifies.

You have to remember, not everybody is such a bad ass as you are.

You don't have to be a bad ass to not write a check.

Its pretty ****in simple, just don't do it.

Trainwreck here for Philbin.

This guy is toast.

Yep. Only Obama can be the top guy in this country and not get held accountable for anything...

I'll bet he's glad he didn't join the military! LOL, especially the marines... But like they say, at least he's in a better place now, so wherever that is, I'm sure he's not being harassed and the lack of money makes his day all the simpler.

Yes, they went over the line, so man-up, face him down (perhaps he can't!!), and be done with it.

I guess the one doode is happy he wasn't dealing with Hernandez though... He'd be dead by now!

The fact that management ordered this was moronic at best and certainly creates liability for the organization. It will be interesting to see how far it will carry this case of bullying the incredible hulk.

Right, and everyone gets a trophy too...:rolleyes:

Lot of dumbshits around here.

I hear you, but you're talking about a guy who wanted out...

And judge mental clowns.

No, Philbin's response will go something like this:

"As an organization we've always asked our veteran players to motivate the rookies when needed. I was unaware of the tactics being used for motivation by Incognito. Would I have known there would have been a cease and desist order on the spot. I sincerely regret the actions taken by our former player and assure you steps will be taken to prevent any further occurrences".

Just like Washington DC baby, diffusion of responsibility. Pretty isn't it? Sorry it didn't work out to your liking this time.

Exactly, but the difference is Obama would no doubt get away with it.

IF the NFL works like any other company management represents the company and their actions are automatically a potential liability. If this is indeed a result of something management ordered there will be consequences.

So many message board tough guys... Man, it's like a leather bar in here.

It was asked what could possibly happen so I threw out plenty of realistic possibilities.

Ryan Leaf fought back -- Junior Seau stole his credit card and then sent a message cheap shot to his own teammate in practice. Dez Bryant refused to carry Roy Williams' pads in practice. Williams' retaliation? He invited the defense to the team dinner and forced a $55,000 tab onto Bryant. If not for Dez whining about it in social media, Roy would have gotten away with it. But Dez got viewed as a cancer for doing that. If Dez wasn't a superstar, would that have damaged his standing with the team?

Incognito's role on the leadership council is important. I didn't say he was a snitch. I'm saying he was in a position to be one. If Martin refused to pay for Vegas, what could stop Incognito from communicating to coaches that Martin was a terrible team player and needed to be benched and possibly cut?

As far as Martin standing up to Incognito is concerned, the fact that so many other players have spoken out on behalf of Incognito suggests that that might be easier said than done. It's very possible that Martin was unpopular with his teammates. He's big, but it's not clear that he's big enough to take Incognito to begin with, much less if the rest of the team is aligned against him.

Jeff Darlington ‏@JeffDarlington 23m
Ryan Tannehill: "If you asked Jonathan Martin who his best friend is on this team two weeks ago, he'd say Richie Incognito."


Jeff Darlington ‏@JeffDarlington 14m
Tannehill has strong words about the relationship between Incognito and Martin, noting Incognito was always first to be at Martin's side.


Jeff Darlington ‏@JeffDarlington 12m
In reference to the prank that occurred before Martin left team, Tannehill says the team played the same prank on Tannehill multiple times.


Jeff Darlington ‏@JeffDarlington 6m
Do not discount Tannehill's sentiment. He knows this team, and these players, better than you do. And he put his name behind his words.

Sorry, I don't trust a word anybody within the organization has to say right now. Everybody on the Chiefs also stood behind Matt Cassel for 3 years too.

Very true. It's going to have a lot to do with what can be proven as far as what the HC knew about the situation and if someone steps forward to backup the fact that he's condoned tactics such as this in the past. If he can make a case for ignorance I think he'll be OK. It's not like Incognito has a history of such behavior (that I've seen anyway) and trusting Incognito's judgement at this point in his career would be negligence.

Also depends on whether or not management was approached on this issue before it exploded. Only time will tell I suppose.

ROFL

I don't know about that. What is more realistic to me is the fact that people will stand in complete judgement of a situation without knowing all the facts and feel justified is saying or making up anything in order to see that judgement through.

Bart Hubbuch ‏@HubbuchNYP 1m
Dolphins OL Tyson Clabo: Martin "needs to stand up and be a man. I don't know why he's doing this."

Bart Hubbuch ‏@HubbuchNYP 1m
Tyson Clabo just obliterated Martin with his comments. I don't think there's any way Martin can return to the Dolphins.

How interested would you be in this squabble if a racial slur wasn't used?