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DJ's left nut 03-09-2011 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirk digler (Post 7476026)
Part of their winning is due to the East being so down but you make a valid point.

The reason why I don't give them much credit is because take Lebron away they are horrible which shows it is 98% him and they pick up the other 2%. It is the similar to if Peyton Manning got hurt the first snap of the season the Colts wouldn't win 4 games. But if Big Ben gets hurt the team doesn't suffer and they still can compete for a SB.

It's not that simple.

LeBron James has a unique skill-set, one that's exclusive to him and one that you can absolutely develop a team around.

If Kobe Bryant is Peyton Manning (i.e. your 'conventional' superstar talent), LeBron James is Michael Vick.

Vick is a guy you can build a team around that's not a 'conventional' team in that you don't need to have your elite LT or your strong possession WRs. You don't need a power back or a strong pass-catching TE. What you want is speed - loads and loads of speed. You open up your deep routes and you create space for him to work with underneath with his legs. Further, those deep threat WRs allow for him to show his strength (his arm) without highlighting his weakness (his short passing).

Now if Vick leaves and is replaced by Matt Cassel - the Eagles are going to absolutely fall apart. Their speed WRs can't be utilized. Their lack of a strong RB will put too much pressure on Cassel and he'll fold. All those parts that were put in place expressly to cater to the unique skills of Michael Vick no longer function without that unique person in place.

That doesn't mean it was 'all Vick', it means it was Vick and parts that were very very good at what they did in a roll designed expressly for Vick.

James isn't a conventional player - he's a massive human being that can explode into tight spaces in/around the paint and occasionally get on a hot streak from outside. He isn't a good mid-range player, he isn't good in the blocks, he doesn't have the handles people claim and his court vision is good for a big man, but probably about average for your standard PG. He's an incredible scorer because he's physically capable of doing things nobody else can do.

He's Michael Vick. Remove him from the Cavs and those players that fit so well around him, guys that were fantastic for the roles they were asked to fill, are now out of place. Much as DeSean Jackson would be if Matt Cassel was throwing him deep balls.

dirk digler 03-09-2011 10:40 AM

Sorry DJ I am going to have to continue to disagree about the Cavs being a championship type team while Lebron was there, well at least the last 2 years.

If you look at recent championships they have their superstar(s) + they have a Tier 2-3 player(s). The Cavs didn't have that.

Heck if you go by this list they didn't have any in the top 5 Tiers

http://renuz.net/sections/Sports/s00...rticleID=10324

DJ's left nut 03-09-2011 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KC_Connection (Post 7476072)
No, I'm just pointing out the incredible flaw in your argument. Jordan didn't win a championship for the first seven years of his career. If it was 1991, you would have had morons like you calling him a loser and downplaying his greatness because of it.

Had Michael Jordan died in 1991, he wouldn't be Michael Jordon.

You are what you earn. MJ is MJ not because of the scoring numbers he racked up in the 80s, but because the championships he won in the 90s.

'Morons' like us want our legends to actually earn their crowns. "King James" hasn't earned shit yet.

DJ's left nut 03-09-2011 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirk digler (Post 7476611)
Sorry DJ I am going to have to continue to disagree about the Cavs being a championship type team while Lebron was there, well at least the last 2 years.

If you look at recent championships they have their superstar(s) + they have a Tier 2-3 player(s). The Cavs didn't have that.

Heck if you go by this list they didn't have any in the top 5 Tiers

http://renuz.net/sections/Sports/s00...rticleID=10324

And again - you're looking at conventional clubs.

With a guy like LeBron, you don't build that kind of team - look at what's going on in Miami.

You have to build a different kind of team around him. Just like the 76ers did with Iverson (who is one of the only other truly unique players to come into this league in a long time). In fact, the nearest facsimile to Iverson was probably Wade, and the team Wade had around him was essentially Wade and an old Shaq (shaq's been very washed up for a long time now).

The key question is, however, were those teams playoff capable?

There's no way you can argue that those teams weren't better regular season fits than the Heat are. Trying to argue otherwise just makes you a dogmatic pain in the ass - there's just no results to support it.

But you can try to argue that the lack of a viable secondary star makes them too vulnerable to cold-spells in the playoffs. This Heat squad wouldn't have that problem. And that would certainly be a fair argument, but it's one we can't speak intelligently to yet as we simply don't know.

But you can close the book on the regular season discussion. The 08/09 and 09/10 Cavs teams were absolutely better built regular season teams than this Heat team. 66 wins and 61 wins simply do not lie.

DJ's left nut 03-09-2011 10:54 AM

Oh, and one more post in my Blitzkreig on the Heat thread (and I hate doing it as it comes in the middle of a losing streak and makes me look like a douche).

Bosh crying for more touches in the paint simply emphasizes how poorly this team was constructed.

Dear Chris:

YOU CAN'T HAVE MORE TOUCHES IN THE PAINT!

If you get stationed in the low blocks, you're going to draw defenders down there with you. Then when James and/or Wade try their standard dribble-penetration in the hopes of getting a shot up while drawing a cheap foul, there will be help defenders there to stop them. Spoelstra could draw a couple plays up for you here and there and give you some courtesy touches, but those will end up telegraphed in short order. If he intends to do that, he'd better save it for the playoffs.

In short - you have to play on the perimeter because Wade and James need that space in the blocks to remain largely unoccupied to be effective. Perhaps in the future you'll choose your teammates more wisely.

Sincerely,

Anyone that paid attention and saw this coming several months ago.

P.S. Yes, this team is absolutely a championship contender. A few clever adjustments at the right times (i.e. situationally situating Bosh down low) could be enough to cover weaknesses just long enough to get them through each series. They could also just blow teams off the floor a time or two per series and that's enough to survive. Additionally, the Lakers match up quite poorly against the Heat and LeBron is in Kobe's head. Don't throw dirt on them yet, the Heat are still a title team.

dirk digler 03-09-2011 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 7476631)
And again - you're looking at conventional clubs.

With a guy like LeBron, you don't build that kind of team - look at what's going on in Miami.

You have to build a different kind of team around him. Just like the 76ers did with Iverson (who is one of the only other truly unique players to come into this league in a long time). In fact, the nearest facsimile to Iverson was probably Wade, and the team Wade had around him was essentially Wade and an old Shaq (shaq's been very washed up for a long time now).

The key question is, however, were those teams playoff capable?

There's no way you can argue that those teams weren't better regular season fits than the Heat are. Trying to argue otherwise just makes you a dogmatic pain in the ass - there's just no results to support it.

But you can try to argue that the lack of a viable secondary star makes them too vulnerable to cold-spells in the playoffs. This Heat squad wouldn't have that problem. And that would certainly be a fair argument, but it's one we can't speak intelligently to yet as we simply don't know.

But you can close the book on the regular season discussion. The 08/09 and 09/10 Cavs teams were absolutely better built regular season teams than this Heat team. 66 wins and 61 wins simply do not lie.

I will concede that overall the Cavs team was built better than the current Heat team they have the worst bench production in the NBA and are really lacking in size down low, which I know is stating the obvious.

Come playoff time though I think the result will be the same. No Finals Appearance and no Championship

WebGem 03-09-2011 01:26 PM

WTF?????

How in the HELL are the Lakers favored by 2 points @ Miami tomorrow? If there's ever a bet that's literally free money, it's the Heat ML.

Edit: I was just told that line is a mistake, but it's weird because 5dimes is still offering it and you can still bet it there. 5dimes has never been a trend setter for lines, and it hasn't been on bookmaker or pinnacle at all yet, which is weird in itself (to be on 5dimes first). But I was told by someone else who's far more familiar with sports betting that he's 95% sure it's a mistake and it'll either be pk or Heat favored by 1 or 2.

If this line and the more likely line didn't cross over 0 I'd think about middling it...oh well.

Chiefs Pantalones 03-09-2011 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WebGem (Post 7476995)
WTF?????

How in the HELL are the Lakers favored by 2 points @ Miami tomorrow? If there's ever a bet that's literally free money, it's the Heat ML.

Because the Lakers are an actual team put together by people that know what they're doing. Unlike the real life NBA Live xbox franchise mode Miami Heat.

WebGem 03-09-2011 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanilla Thunder (Post 7477011)
Because the Lakers are an actual team put together by people that know what they're doing. Unlike the real life NBA Live xbox franchise mode Miami Heat.

No, I was wrong about the line. I just edited my post.

And believe it or not, the Heat were put together by people who know what they're doing too. And when they win it all this year nobody can talk anymore shit about them.

KC_Connection 03-09-2011 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 7476613)
Had Michael Jordan died in 1991, he wouldn't be Michael Jordon.

You are what you earn. MJ is MJ not because of the scoring numbers he racked up in the 80s, but because the championships he won in the 90s.

'Morons' like us want our legends to actually earn their crowns. "King James" hasn't earned shit yet.

Team awards or not, MJ was well on pace to be one of the best players of all time in 1991. Just like LeBron James is right now in 2011. Criticizing them for not doing what their teams were unable to do isn't fair.

DJ's left nut 03-09-2011 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KC_Connection (Post 7477067)
Team awards or not, MJ was well on pace to be one of the best players of all time in 1991. Just like LeBron James is right now.

"On pace for" means hasn't done it yet.

I'll ask that the self-appointed 'King' of the NBA actually win a championship before I anoint him as such.

WebGem 03-09-2011 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 7477073)
"On pace for" means hasn't done it yet.

I'll ask that the self-appointed 'King' of the NBA actually win a championship before I anoint him as such.

If LeBron doesn't win a title before he retires that will be absolutely shocking.

KC_Connection 03-09-2011 01:55 PM

Bosh isn't exactly an effective post-up player (he has no post moves and little passing ability), so I'm not sure why he would even want the ball in the low post. He needs the ball at the high post to be effective.

DJ's left nut 03-09-2011 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WebGem (Post 7477077)
If LeBron doesn't win a title before he retires that will be absolutely shocking.

Indeed it would be.

But he has to do it first.

People have been calling this guy God for so long that's he bought into his own hype. Consequently he's busy shooting air jumpers in Vegas while Durant is figuring out how to move through traffic better.

Enablers like KC Connection have done James (and the NBA) a terrible disservice. If this guy would've ever worked to get the most out of his talent, he could easily have had at least 1 ring by now and well on his way to GOAT status.

You'll get no argument from me in this respect - LeBron James is probably the most talented player to ever play this game. To this point, he's coasted off it - that's why he doesn't have a ring. He's still trying to coast off it by surrounding himself with star players.

At no point has he considered the possibility that maybe he's at fault for some of these failings. He'll put on his pouty face and tell the media he has, but his actions simply don't support his words.

KC_Connection 03-09-2011 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 7477088)
Indeed it would be.

But he has to do it first.

People have been calling this guy God for so long that's he bought into his own hype. Consequently he's busy shooting air jumpers in Vegas while Durant is figuring out how to move through traffic better.

Enablers like KC Connection have done James (and the NBA) a terrible disservice. If this guy would've ever worked to get the most out of his talent, he could easily have had at least 1 ring by now and well on his way to GOAT status.

You'll get no argument from me in this respect - LeBron James is probably the most talented player to ever play this game. To this point, he's coasted off it - that's why he doesn't have a ring. He's still trying to coast off it by surrounding himself with star players.

At no point has he considered the possibility that maybe he's at fault for some of these failings. He'll put on his pouty face and tell the media he has, but his actions simply don't support his words.

LeBron James has improved every aspect of his game since he entered the game as a rookie. To suggest that he hasn't ever worked at basketball is a claim based on no evidence.


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