Originally Posted by ChiefsandO'sfan (Post 9716468)

That will even out with the start of your 2nd half schedule dummy. You cant make up these 4 games.

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins (Post 9716476)

Did you ever stop to think that the Reds are as close as they are due to their schedule and that these four games may not matter as much as you think once it actually evens out?

Originally Posted by ChiefsandO'sfan (Post 9716482)

Can you really sit here and say interleague rivalries are fair?

Originally Posted by frazod (Post 9716204)

I'm okay with Holliday. I mean, I'm never going to rush out and buy a Holliday jersey, but he's our No. 1 guy, like it or not. I just hope he's still useful in October.

Originally Posted by O.city (Post 9716753)

If he could play an equal defensive third base, I'd put Gordon there, put him in the 2 hole and forget about it.

I don't think I'd take him over Craig and/or Adams at first simply because I'm not sure he would have the thud to hit 4th as they do/can.

But to put him and Carpenter in front of Holliday, Craig, Beltran, Yadi, would be pretty impressive.

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins (Post 9716740)

Holliday makes about 17 MM. He's just been "blah" to start this season. Never had an extended hot streak, but he's never looked completely helpless either. He's also been a little unlucky to start the year. His K rate has dropped precipitously and his BABIP is .267, but his GB rate is up while his LD rate is a touch down, but at the same rate it was when he was a 6 WAR player in 2010.

Gordon's near .400 BABIP is a might ridiculous.

Originally Posted by duncan_idaho (Post 9716796)

Gordon is a better hitter than Craig, and he has proven quite durable, something Craig has yet to really do. He's a .300/.370 OBP guy who is going to hit around 20 HR and 40 2B (and that's in a lineup where he has much less help than he would in St. Louis, and much more pressure). If you don't like him 4th, hit him 2nd or 3rd and drop Beltran and Holliday down a slot.

Or forget about Gordon at 1st or 3rd. Play Matt Holliday at 1B and leave Gordon in left. Keeps Holliday's bat in the lineup and moves him off of a position where he is below- to fringe-average. Holliday might also be able to avoid the nagging injuries that always seem to steal a couple of weeks from each of his seasons.

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 9716861)

Gordon also hits lefthanded.

It hasn't mattered this year, but for his career there is a noticeable split there. Good, RH, RBI bats are really in short supply, especially in the Cardinals system.

I'd be extremely reluctant to take a RH bat out of the lineup in favor of another LHer.

I'm also FAR from willing to just concede that Alex Gordon is a better hitter than Allen Craig. Craig's going to hit for more power year in, year out, IMO. Additionally, while Gordon's more likely to draw a walk, he's also more likely to strike out. Seeing as how Craig is used as an RBI/Cleanup hitter, his ability to make contact more frequently is largely what makes him such an outstanding RBI guy. I know RBI is team dependent, but if all things are equal, Craig is a better RBI hitter due to his approach.

In the end, they're comparable hitters, but Gordon is a better athlete/baserunner. I think it's hard to go wrong with either one, but given the difficulty in finding a premier RH RBI bat, I'd prefer keep the righty and sacrifice the athleticism, especially if we're talking about a scenario where either player is at 1b.

Matt Adams? Pft - Gordon in a walk. Adams may be great someday, but the book on him is out right now (hard in, hard in, soft away; take a seat). He needs to adjust to pitchers adjusting to him before I start including him in any of these conversations.

Originally Posted by frazod (Post 9716204)

I'm okay with Holliday. I mean, I'm never going to rush out and buy a Holliday jersey, but he's our No. 1 guy, like it or not. I just hope he's still useful in October.

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 9716420)

1) Would Alex Gordon start for the Cardinals?

I think you'd have to find a place for him, but really - Holliday's not going anywhere. A) He just flat makes too much money. But really, it's more than that. He's a damn gutty player and I think he's a good 'complementary' leader. He's a guy that is a great 'leader by example'. I think you need vocal leaders as well, but Holliday's been a winning ballplayer his whole career and I do think the young players on this roster respect the hell out of him and how he approaches the game.

Gordon can't really play CF and Beltran can't either. In 2014 you'd have an easy answer - Beltran walks, Gordon plays RF and Taveras gets wedged into CF. In 2013, however, I'd rather have Beltran. You forget how nice it is to have a switch hitter in the center of your lineup until you have one. Apart from that, Beltran's just a timely HR machine. I like Gordon a lot and ultimately Beltran will have a streak where he's completely lost at some point this year, but Beltran's ability to switch hit combined with his HR pop gives him the edge, IMO. And while Gordon's not had a chance to prove it, I think it's extremely unlikely that he proves himself to be the post-season player that Beltran has shown to be.

But if you truly believe he's capable of playing 3b - there's your answer. I'd play him ahead of Freese all day, every day. He's simply a better player.

2) Wainwright and Shields.

Sorry, gonna have to agree with the other Cards fans here, but only because I think Wainwright was criminally underrated in 2009 and 2010. A Gold Glove winner, back to back top 3 finishes in the CY voting. 200+ Ks, leading the league in IPs while putting up an ERA+ of 155 and 160. That Adam Wainwright wasn't a tier below anyone. He didn't throw as hard as some of the guys you mentioned, but he was every bit as effective as Kershaw, Felix and essentially anyone else (Verlander's absurd year notwithstanding). No, Adam Wainwright was not a 2nd tier ace in 2009 or 2010 - he was as good as anyone there was.

This year he looks more like that Wainwright than the 2012 model. He's also a guy that's shown the stones to strike out one of the greatest post-season hitters in history in a Game 7 on the road with the winning run on base.

Ultimately, prior to this season, Shields has had only 1 truly great year. And yeah, 2011 was a remarkable season for him, but I don't think it was better than Wainwright's 2009 and it certainly wasn't better than his 2010. And if he's truly back to that form, and it looks like he might be, he's simply a little better pitcher than Shields with a better resume.

3) Billy Butler has a shot at 3000 hits.

Here's the problem, I once had this exact same discussion regarding Edgar Renteria. At the same age Billy Butler is now, Edgar had nearly 1,500 hits and had just come off the most productive 3 years of his career. He was a lynchpin hitter for a 105 win ballclub and looked for all the world like a guy that could reach 3,000.

He didn't even make it to 2,400.

The conversation doesn't matter. Sure, Butler could do it, but his odds are a hell of a lot worse than Edgar's were, IMO and Edgar didn't even approach it. 3,000 hit guys are made in their late 30s. Either they're guys like Craig Biggio that keep knocking out 170 hit seasons after their 35 birthdays or they're Edgar. In other words - it's just not a conversation worth having for another 7 years.

Look at it this way - Butler's 3 years ahead of David Ortiz, essentially. So even if you presume that those will be 3 good years, you're talking about adding another 550 or so hits to his total than Ortiz. David Ortiz has aged better than any bad body hitter I can remember and he hits in a perfect park for him - he's still not going to get to within 500 hits of 3,000.

I'd be shocked if Butler topped 2500, truth be told. But if he can get to 2400 by the time he's 35, he has a shot. That seems damn unlikely to me.

Originally Posted by PackerinMo (Post 9717298)

I wasn't here last baseball season, is frazod a Holliday hater or something?

Originally Posted by PackerinMo (Post 9717298)

I wasn't here last baseball season, is frazod a Holliday hater or something?

Originally Posted by frazod (Post 9717303)

His tendency to piss his pants in the postseason irks me.

Originally Posted by PackerinMo (Post 9717325)

I just checked, 2011 was the only season he missed some time but damn it seems like hes always hurt.

Originally Posted by frazod (Post 9717303)

His tendency to piss his pants in the postseason irks me.

Originally Posted by BigRedChief (Post 9717440)

check his stats about "choking" too. He's just not that bad.

Originally Posted by Marcellus (Post 9717452)

Frazod is still pissed about the dropped fly ball. Seriously.

Originally Posted by frazod (Post 9717507)

I wouldn't say that, but thinking about it still pisses me off.

Originally Posted by Jewish Rabbi (Post 9718201)

It's absolutely un-****ing-real that we have four starting pitchers on the DL (Carp, Garcia, Westbrook, Gast) and haven't skipped a beat. I can't even remember the last time we've had a starter blow up, each and every starter gives us a chance to win the game.

Originally Posted by Jewish Rabbi (Post 9718201)

It's absolutely un-****ing-real that we have four starting pitchers on the DL (Carp, Garcia, Westbrook, Gast) and haven't skipped a beat. I can't even remember the last time we've had a starter blow up, each and every starter gives us a chance to win the game.

Originally Posted by Rams Fan (Post 9718206)

It's an improvement over P.J. Suppsworth from 2010.

Originally Posted by frazod (Post 9718221)

And we FINALLY picked up a game on the goddamn Reds. Now up 2.5 games on both them and the Pirates.

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins (Post 9718348)

Pittsburgh would be leading any other division in baseball and they're in third. Crazy.

Originally Posted by frazod (Post 9718359)

I look forward to the upcoming Reds/Pirates series. They need to start beating the shit out of each other.

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins (Post 9718363)

Any near-Earth asteroids crossing our orbit soon?

Originally Posted by frazod (Post 9718368)

That works.

Although if I only get one asteroid, I'd still prefer it hit at a Broncos/Raiders game in Oakland.

Originally Posted by Swanman (Post 9718624)

Can I have a little asteroid for the ESPN studios if Dickhead V and Stu Scott are in the building?

Originally Posted by Rams Fan (Post 9718147)

So in the GDT, Hamas brought up 2007 after I mentioned Kip Wells.

It's ****ing astounding how different the rotation is from then. I still don't understand how Walt thought Wells could be a capable #2 when he had done nothing in his career previously to prove that. And there was nothing in the minors.

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins (Post 9719000)

Walt was desperate. As the game wisened up, his ability to extract sick value in trades lessened, which made him a less valuable GM. If you look at his success, his firing would be a major red flag for most organizations, but the Cardinals made the right choice.

I don't even want to think about some of the bloated contracts we'd carry if Jocketty was still here.

Originally Posted by Rams Fan (Post 9719237)

I think there red flags everywhere before the season started. Losing what? 3/5 of the rotation wasn't good. And replacing the starters with Looper and Wells wasn't a great idea. I don't blame them for giving Reyes a shot and Mulder imploding.

What do you think has been the change in his performance in Cincy?

The talent there before he was hired or his ability to develop a minor league system?

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins (Post 9718363)

Any near-Earth asteroids crossing our orbit soon?

Originally Posted by PackerinMo (Post 9719435)

Wacha! Wacha! Wacha! Lets do this.

Originally Posted by BigRedChief (Post 9719460)

Does he go 6-7 innings. 3 hits, 1 run allowed?

Whats the over/under?

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins (Post 9719465)

They're gonna try and cap him at 150 innings this year. Even if he does well I'd be surprised if he goes into the 7th.

That said, don't expect him to be Shelby Miller. He hasn't missed a ton of bats in AAA, and there's no reason to expect him to do so here. That's why DJ wanted him to stay in Memphis. Until he learns to make a breaking ball an out pitch he may scuffle a bit with big league hitters, as he's not a sinkerballer or a flame thrower. He needs a third pitch, and right now he doesn't have one.

Hopefully the Royals' BABIP luck dries up today.

I'd be content with 6 IP 6H, 1BB, 4K and 2-3 ER.

Originally Posted by PackerinMo (Post 9719514)

I think he goes 6, with 5 hits and 2 maybe 3 ER's. This is the perfect line up for him to start his first game against to ease him in the majors. Have to agree with hamas though I wouldn't expect him to be on Millers level.

Originally Posted by BigRedChief (Post 9719539)

You guys see the video from this afternoon......... about 25 press people standing around Wacha in the dugout asking him how special is he?

Originally Posted by PackerinMo (Post 9719603)

No, where did you see that?

Originally Posted by BigRedChief (Post 9719694)

Fox sports midwest website and STLtoday website.

Originally Posted by BigRedChief (Post 9719513)

yeah I read or saw where Mo was talking averaging 5 innings per start the rest of the year.

We don't need him to be a #3 or higher this year. Just learn and get that damn breaking ball to the major league level. Ask that guy in the locker next to you for some tips.

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins (Post 9719883)

If he's only throwing 5 per start he's essentially worthless to us. A better plan would be for us to get him about 15 starts, hoping for about 6 IP per start. From there, transition him to a bullpen role once rosters expand. He probably ends up at 165 or so that way, but that isn't egregious.

Originally Posted by BigRedChief (Post 9719917)

You can't keep pitching Miller like you have been either. Martinez is suppose to be ready at the end of June. But, how do you spell Miller and Wacha? Just miss a spot start? Does that ever work?

Originally Posted by Jewish Rabbi (Post 9720121)

My god this kid is dealing.

Originally Posted by luv (Post 9720622)

And, of course, it all goes downhill starting with Boggs. Get rid of him.

Originally Posted by BigRedChief (Post 9720640)

Man I am so pissed at Matheny. Putting Boggs in there was unforgivable. We all saw that coming. Hope that a pitcher can turn it around in a one run game. He hasn't pitch well at all. Took away a win for wacha. Damn thats the worst move I've seen him make.:cuss:

Originally Posted by BigRedChief (Post 9720640)

Man I am so pissed at Matheny. Putting Boggs in there was unforgivable. We all saw that coming. Hope that a pitcher can turn it around in a one run game. He hasn't pitch well at all. Took away a win for wacha. Damn thats the worst move I've seen him make.:cuss:

Originally Posted by luv (Post 9720676)

Yeah, the minute I heard that Boggs was coming in, I thought to myself, "aw shit. There goes that win."

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins (Post 9720684)

He should have stayed with Maness or went to Blazek. Boggs was an arrogant, foolish decision. They deserve to lose this game.

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins (Post 9720684)

He should have stayed with Maness or went to Blazek. Boggs was an arrogant, foolish decision. They deserve to lose this game.

Originally Posted by frazod (Post 9720670)

I'd sooner have Franklin pitching at this point. That ****ing turd has got to go.

Originally Posted by rico (Post 9720815)

In terms of our closers, it seems like we have been the most inconsistent team in the MLB since around Izzy's last season with us.

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins (Post 9720848)

Closers don't last long because all relievers are failed starters. Shittier pitchers don't last as long as good ones. Occam's Razor.

Originally Posted by Jewish Rabbi (Post 9720831)

Nah, every team is like that really. Closers just don't usually last long for whatever reason.

Franklin was great for a year, Motte was nails last year, Mujica has been incredible this year. Even Salas did a respectable job in the role before he gave way to Motte.