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ChiefsCountry 07-28-2015 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duncan_idaho (Post 11623286)
There's plenty of room to walk the middle ground with analytics and "baseball logic."

A balanced approach is the best way to go, IMO. Rely only on analytics, and you're Paul DePodesta/Keith Law. Rely only on "baseball logic and scouting" and you're the Arizona Diamondbacks.

You can't rely entirely on analytics, because you miss things like Moustakas remaking his entire approach over the offseason and becoming a completely different hitter. (For the record, hamas mentioned that in his breakdown of the changes).

But you can't rely entirely on the 'scout's eye' either, because sometimes a players raw skills and abilities don't translate to reality.

:thumb:

DeezNutz 07-28-2015 10:01 AM

Straight statistical analysis will never be able to account fully for the mental aspect of the game, and therefore it becomes a circular argument.

Prove that Moose's mind ****ing hurt his numbers last year!!! Well...

Dude hadn't seen the shift all spring training, and then the season starts. And the shift is all that he sees. He goes for ****ing ever before getting a hit, and then he's gripping for the majority of the year.

Yeah, his approach is different this year, but success (such as the post-season success he enjoyed last year) makes it easier for players to be willing to change. Sounds strange, I know, but when the wheels fall the **** off, like it did for him last year, he's going back to what has always made him successful, and that's pull, pull, pull.

If you haven't played sports (and this is magnified if you have never played at a high level), I don't think you can have a full appreciation for the mental component.

'Hamas' Jenkins 07-28-2015 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hootie 2.0 (Post 11623230)
it's why I can't really take people like 'Hamas' or PB serious because they look at fangraphs and then make conclusions

just yesterday Hamas was like 'nah Moose is the same guy he just had rat shit luck with BABIP last year!'

he totally ignored the fact that was because Moose constantly just pulled the ball into the shift. Every ****ing time. Over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over. OF COURSE YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE A TERRIBLE BABIP WHEN YOU HIT INTO THE DEFENSE EVERY TIME. That's the point of the shift.

This offseason, he worked on it, he became a complete hitter, and now he has more hits to left field than he does to right field. Of course his BABIP is going to much higher when he's using THE ENTIRE FIELD. You can't just say, "well he's just luckier this year because his BABIP is way up compared to last year!" There is a reason for that.
.

You can't even read or lie worth a shit. Are the baby steps that ****ing hard?

Here's what I said to your claim that "confidence made him a better player."

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins (Post 11621891)
Prove that it erased the doubt from Moustakas, then.

When I see Moustakas I see a guy who tries to make contact more than last year, so he K's a little less. He hits the same number of balls hard this year compared to last. His isolated power is the same. His walk rate is the same. His line drive rate is the same.

The only thing Moustakas has changed is that he's less pull happy. It's made him a more complete hitter, but certainly not a more powerful one. That's not a change due to confidence, that's a change in approach.

It's also an example of why saying "I've watched 90 Royals games" is largely meaningless. You can look at a guy through 350 at bats and claim that he's a completely different player when the data demonstrates that he is now using all fields and that (in part because he's hitting to all fields) he isn't hitting into rat shit luck to the tune of a .220 BABIP.

So, you are either incapable of understanding what I posted or you just make shit up in an attempt to change the narrative.

Your claim was that confidence made him a better hitter. I asked for evidence, you provided none.

My claim was that he became less pull happy, which is what led to the uptick in his BA and BABIP. I provided hard data. It also indicated that he isn't hitting the ball any harder or seeing it much better (same walk rate, same BB profile).

Again, show me where Moustakas' confidence plays into this, or shut the **** up.

srvy 07-28-2015 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dunit35 (Post 11623213)
No. He means Alex Smith and this year.

:thumb:

'Hamas' Jenkins 07-28-2015 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeezNutz (Post 11623295)
Straight statistical analysis will never be able to account fully for the mental aspect of the game, and therefore it becomes a circular argument.

Prove that Moose's mind ****ing hurt his numbers last year!!! Well...

Dude hadn't seen the shift all spring training, and then the season starts. And the shift is all that he sees. He goes for ****ing ever before getting a hit, and then he's gripping for the majority of the year.

Yeah, his approach is different this year, but success (such as the post-season success he enjoyed last year) makes it easier for players to be willing to change. Sounds strange, I know, but when the wheels fall the **** off, like it did for him last year, he's going back to what has always made him successful, and that's pull, pull, pull.

If you haven't played sports (and this is magnified if you have never played at a high level), I don't think you can have a full appreciation for the mental component.

This is completely wrong. You know what people often due when they encounter issues? They change. Why do you think that batters in slumps change aspects of their swings? Why do you think that Tiger Woods is on yet another swing coach?

Not only does your claim lack any hard data, it relies on a post-hoc fallacy, and it's also rebutted by observational evidence of athlete upon athlete who doesn't do that.

BWillie 07-28-2015 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anyong Bluth (Post 11623262)
When success in scoring is dependent on accomplishing a task in which it's considered very good if you can be successful between 3 and 4 times out of 10, welcome to arbitrary chance. The difference between an extremely good team and an average team is about the outcome of 15 - 20 games.

You go from 81 and 81 to between 96 to 101 and 61 to 66.

Hence , the inpredictability come playoff time.

Great post. Luck is a part of baseball, time to accept it.

DeezNutz 07-28-2015 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins (Post 11623308)
This is completely wrong. You know what people often due when they encounter issues? They change. Why do you think that batters in slumps change aspects of their swings? Why do you think that Tiger Woods is on yet another swing coach?

Not only does your claim lack any hard data, it relies on a post-hoc fallacy, and it's also rebutted by observational evidence of athlete upon athlete who doesn't do that.

You believe that bat angle or timing mechanisms are the same as approach for an individual who holds (held?) a record for home runs in CA?

Feel free to dismiss the impact of the post-season by claiming logical fallacy. Not going to waste time engaging in this debate because I agree that there isn't going to be "hard data" to support such claims.

Prison Bitch 07-28-2015 10:18 AM

"Scouts eye" folks are no diff from anyone else: they seek confirmation bias for their own views. Take Paul Goldschmidt: no scout liked him and he was never even a top-10 org prospect for AZ. Has killed everything since AA with no major slumps. Scouts totally missed him and they never bring him up.

DeezNutz 07-28-2015 10:19 AM

By the way, Hosmer, who has struggled mightily at points in his ML career and is one of Moose's best friends, is also rumored to be very, very open to change and adjustments.

Hootie 07-28-2015 10:33 AM

you said that Moose had 'rat shit' luck of a .220 BABIP last year. Uh no, he didn't. He hit a billion ground balls to the right side of the infield, right into the shift. He pressed all year. He was sent to AAA. For the first time in his life, his career was in jeopardy.

...and then the postseason happened. George Brett told him, "hey, everyone is at .000 now." Why did he say that? Because he watched Moose press ALL year long.

He crushed the postseason both at the plate and in the field. It gave him ALL SORTS of confidence. He parlayed that confidence into becoming a complete hitter. Learning how to beat the shift. Having the luxury of knowing his career was safe helped him do all of this.

I don't know what your sports background is, Hamas. Or PB. Or anyone. But if you think confidence in baseball has nothing to do with hitting ... you're ****ing wrong. Plain and simple. "Seeing the ball well" is another way of saying, "that hitter has a lot of confidence right now."

It's hilarious to me. Talent gets you there, no doubt. You have to have talent. The difference between guys who make it with talent and guys who maybe don't is confidence. I predicted before the year that if Moose came out and FINALLY had a strong April he'd be a force this year. No pressing.

So far, what has happened?

I know, I guess I was lucky again. Just like I was lucky in Volquez. Just like I was lucky when I mocked PECOTA, fangraphs and Vegas for predicting us to have between 72-80 wins.

Yep. Luck.

Hootie 07-28-2015 10:34 AM

I said if Cain kept his weight back he could hit 20 HR's ...

I know, luck.

I guess I'm just the luckiest ****ing baseball fan in the world when it comes to predicting things that I watch.

'Hamas' Jenkins 07-28-2015 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeezNutz (Post 11623324)
You believe that bat angle or timing mechanisms are the same as approach for an individual who holds (held?) a record for home runs in CA?

Feel free to dismiss the impact of the post-season by claiming logical fallacy. Not going to waste time engaging in this debate because I agree that there isn't going to be "hard data" to support such claims.

If that hard data existed, you could find it. If your claim is true, then post-season success leads to sustainable differences in player production after said success occurs that can't be accounted for by either a small sample size issue or a player's natural aging curve.

The most likely evidence, which is supportable, is that Moustakas looked at his 2014 numbers, saw how pull happy he was, and decided to change things to increase his batting average rather than rolling everything over to the second baseman.

I'm sure Chris Davis had a **** of a lot more confidence after his 50 HR season, but he's never been able to repeat it. Same thing with Bautista. Not surprisingly, both achieved such successes after swing changes, not by being the hitters they always were.

'Hamas' Jenkins 07-28-2015 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hootie 2.0 (Post 11623361)
you said that Moose had 'rat shit' luck of a .220 BABIP last year. Uh no, he didn't. He hit a billion ground balls to the right side of the infield, right into the shift. He pressed all year. He was sent to AAA. For the first time in his life, his career was in jeopardy.

...and then the postseason happened. George Brett told him, "hey, everyone is at .000 now." Why did he say that? Because he watched Moose press ALL year long.

He crushed the postseason both at the plate and in the field. It gave him ALL SORTS of confidence. He parlayed that confidence into becoming a complete hitter. Learning how to beat the shift. Having the luxury of knowing his career was safe helped him do all of this.

I don't know what your sports background is, Hamas. Or PB. Or anyone. But if you think confidence in baseball has nothing to do with hitting ... you're ****ing wrong. Plain and simple. "Seeing the ball well" is another way of saying, "that hitter has a lot of confidence right now."

It's hilarious to me. Talent gets you there, no doubt. You have to have talent. The difference between guys who make it with talent and guys who maybe don't is confidence. I predicted before the year that if Moose came out and FINALLY had a strong April he'd be a force this year. No pressing.

So far, what has happened?

I know, I guess I was lucky again. Just like I was lucky in Volquez. Just like I was lucky when I mocked PECOTA, fangraphs and Vegas for predicting us to have between 72-80 wins.

Yep. Luck.

I'll say it again: prove that his confidence is what made him change his approach.

Prison Bitch 07-28-2015 10:40 AM

Not sure Moose is the best example here, as Steamer really liked him a proj a 3 WAR season.

DeezNutz 07-28-2015 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins (Post 11623370)
If that hard data existed, you could find it. If your claim is true, then post-season success leads to sustainable differences in player production after said success occurs that can't be accounted for by either a small sample size issue or a player's natural aging curve.

The most likely evidence, which is supportable, is that Moustakas looked at his 2014 numbers, saw how pull happy he was, and decided to change things to increase his batting average rather than rolling everything over to the second baseman.

I'm sure Chris Davis had a **** of a lot more confidence after his 50 HR season, but he's never been able to repeat it. Same thing with Bautista. Not surprisingly, both achieved such successes after swing changes, not by being the hitters they always were.

In Moose's case, I believe the post-season success gave him the confidence that he was a major-league player. Last year, he was simply fighting to survive, including enjoying about 5 hours in Omaha when he was demoted, but then his slap-dick replacement was immediately injured.

Embracing a paradigm shift as big as Moose did coming into this year demands a level of confidence in just belonging. That's what I believe last October gave him.


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