Herrera's WAR last year was greater than Craig's, and the Royals are operating with a two-year window here.

There isn't another poster on this board who has advocated more strongly for trading relievers, since they tend to flash rather than sustain success, but we have to play behind DM's moves, for better or worse.

The WARs are a wash, but substantially weakening our pen would be very, very stupid in a win-now movement.

Who are you comparing to Butler?

Craig.

Butler's probably a better hitter, but they're actually very similar in that regard. Their rate stats were extremely similar last year but Craig hurt his knee early in the year so he missed some time. Otherwise the counting stats would've been almost identical as well. Their hitting profiles are extremely similar; both RH doubles hitters with homers that are mostly liners that make it out of the yard and can hit line to line. Where Craig hasn't done it as long as Butler, he can play an OF position, notably one that the Royals have a problem at. Butler's going to be the more valuable commodity, but not by a shitload.

Perez is, at least, on par with Molina.

I don't think Craig is that much better than Frenchy that we would need to bother weakening our bullpen significantly in order to get him. You can't simply brush off the fact that Craig has some injury issues either.

Yeah, no.

Expound.

Yes, Butler's done it longer. But if Craig performs this year like he has the 2 years prior (yes, 2011 was only a half-season, but his post-season was amazing and long in its own right), can you really continue to argue that Butler's a far superior hitter? Especially when Craig was also an elite hitter in the minors that was blocked by Lance Berkman in RF and Albert Pujols at 1b; hardly shitty company.

They're extremely similar hitters. I'm hard pressed to find 2 guys that are more alike from a purely offensive perspective, to be honest. Let's not forget that Allen Craig garnered MVP consideration last year.

I don't want to hijack your Royals thread any more than I already have, but I think it's fair to discuss players without unnecessarily discounting their performance. Butler's among the better 'professional' right-handed hitters in baseball. But y'know what? So is Allen Craig.

I remember he was an Oakland Athletics prospect at one point. However I don't remember Larry Sutton? Who in the **** was Larry Sutton?

Lefty swinging, light hitting first baseman.

I think you need to re-evaluate your assessment of elite minor league hitting. Also, Butler is two years younger than Craig and has been performing at the major league level since 2007. So don't dismiss five years of production like it is meaningless.

Looks like he started opening day RF in 1998. Also, I remember Kevin McReynolds when he was with the Mets he was a real asshole in Spring Training in Florida to a friend of mine when he worked at the park. Was McReynolds still a turd here?

I'm not. But at some point, sample sizes equalize when discussing future performance. If Craig has another year like he did last year, you're looking at 2.5 years of performance right on par with the best production of Butler's career (and let's not act like it was all win and roses with Billy, a lot of you guys were ready to run him out of town until last season). Personally, I'm comfortable saying that Craig will duplicate that performance, though he does have to make a slight adjustment right now; he's not driving the ball terribly well.

But if he makes that adjustment and gets you to 1000+ ABs at a very high level, isn't it fair to say that Craig is what he is and that player is a hitter that is very very similar to Butler? And while Butler is younger, he's also a fat guy and fat guys don't always age terribly well. Craigs a much better athlete.

Butler wasn't a better hitter than Craig in 2012. He had more ABs by virtue of not being able to play defense and therefore avoided the injury that Craig had, but when both guys were in the lineup, they were extremely similar hitters - surely you'll admit that.

And ultimately, I'll admit that I"m probably jumping the gun a bit and taking his 2013 performance for granted. I've seen Craig play under the brightest lights imaginable and excel. I've seen him hit a bomb in game 7 of the World Series and then turn around 2 innings later, reach over the wall and bring back a HR of his own. I've seen him in spring training in person and seen him develop as a hitter. I'm absolutely comfortable establishing his baseline as his 2012 performance because the guy is fearless and he's flat talented.

And if he reproduces at his 2012 level, I don't see how you can still claim that Billy Butler's a significantly more valuable property unless Butler takes a major step forward as well.

PLEASE. Craig had two significant advantages: He batted in St. Louis and he batted in the NL. Billy is just getting into his prime. Craig should already be in it.

How is batting in the NL an advantage?

Pitching in the NL is as good as it is in the AL; it's the offenses in the AL that make it a little scarier than the NL. The NL hasn't been winning the World Series of late through hitting teams into submission; it's been pitching. As to batting in STL, I can only surmise you're referring to the lineup around him, but that really fell hard in the 2nd half last year and it was Craig that did almost all the heavy lifting after Beltran collapsed then Berkman and Furcal went down for the year. The offense remained scary because of Craig.

And again, Butler being 2 years younger than Craig is at least partially offset by Butler being a fat guy. His prime is going to come a little sooner and decay a little sooner (though the 'fat guy skills' tend to fall off more gradually) than a guy that's more athletic.

Oh, and you'll be paying Billy Butler $40 million over the next 4 years whereas Craig will be getting $19 million over those same 4, so coming at 1/2 the price over the same period surely doesn't hurt his trade value, does it?

You have the more established hitter. We have a more athletic hitter that can actually play the field with a decent track record of his own and an immediate history that is extremely comparable to your hitters at half the $$. I fail to see how there is a massive disparity in trade value there.