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-   -   Science Something amazing to tell you concerning physics and motion (https://chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=208580)

cdcox 06-04-2009 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by orange (Post 5817658)
As I mentioned earlier, perfect rolling requires infinite friction.

We don't need to go that far, though. See my last post.

Actually, perfect rolling generates zero frictional force opposing the thrust of the jets.

jAZ 06-04-2009 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MediaCenterJunkie (Post 5816309)
So the group paid $27 ($9 each), and he has $2 in his pocket, equaling $29.

What happened to the other dollar?

The group paid $27 INCLUDING the $2 in his pocket... and got $1 each back.

Nothing happened to the $1 but bad math.

orange 06-04-2009 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arc (Post 5817676)
It most certainly makes a difference. For friction forces to match the thrust of the jet engines, the tires would last a millisecond before melting down, at which time the jet would begin moving down the runway, scrapping along on its struts.


Again, friction forces don't really enter into it. You WANT high friction, but whatever friction you have is going to apply equally to the wheels and the treadmill.

The operative variable is resistance to the treadmill spinning freely.

jAZ 06-04-2009 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sully (Post 5816332)
If he pocketed $2 they paid $28.

No, they paid $27 ($25 + $2 = $27).

He gave each back $1 (x3) = $30 total.

Nothing to see here.

MagicHef 06-04-2009 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arc (Post 5817676)
It most certainly makes a difference. For friction forces to match the thrust of the jet engines, the tires would last a millisecond before melting down, at which time the jet would begin moving down the runway, scrapping along on its struts.

You realize the friction in question is in the wheel bearings, not the tires, right? Besides, those are made of MagicHefium, so no worries there.

Frosty 06-04-2009 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by orange (Post 5817666)
Yes you can. Equal and opposite reaction. The same force that causes the wheels to spin causes the treadmill to spin at the exact same time.

I'm not sure you are adding up your forces correctly. The force of the jets is moving the plane forward. The wheel is only spinning because of its frictional contact to the pavement. However, that is partly from the downward force of the weight of the jet along with a component of the forward force. However, the whole force isn't transferred to the wheels, so the treadmill can't counteract all of it.

jAZ 06-04-2009 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sully (Post 5816349)
You are overthinking it!!!!!
$30-$2 is NOT $27!!

$30 - $2 (kept) - $3 returned = $25 (meal price).

The original question is flawed (presumably by design).

orange 06-04-2009 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cdcox (Post 5817681)
Actually, perfect rolling generates zero frictional force opposing the thrust of the jets.

The friction I am talking about is the friction between the wheels and the ground/treadmill. This is the coefficient of friction.

For dragging you want low. For rolling you want high.

MagicHef 06-04-2009 04:05 PM

I think orange and I have fundamental differences in how we each view this scenario, so keep that in mind as you are discussing this with us.

jAZ 06-04-2009 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baby Lee (Post 5816366)
not 27+2=29 [an irrelevant sum].

This.

orange 06-04-2009 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arc (Post 5817698)
I'm not sure you are adding up your forces correctly. The force of the jets is moving the plane forward. The wheel is only spinning because of its frictional contact to the pavement. However, that is partly from the downward force of the weight of the jet along with a component of the forward force. However, the whole force isn't transferred to the wheels, so the treadmill can't counteract all of it.

Yes, it is. The wheels MUST keep up with the rest of the plane or the plane rotates forward and plunges nose first into the ground.

For the wheels to keep up, they MUST roll or slide along the ground (unless you have a hopping plane). Once you generate enough speed to produce lift, you can then, well, "lift" them off the ground.

cdcox 06-04-2009 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by orange (Post 5817678)
It must or the wheels will rip off. If the wheels don't roll or slide, they have to do something.

Force of jets - rolling resistance = large positive number

(large positive number) / (mass of jet) = acceleration

Lets say after 1 second, the jet is moving at 1 mph.

Jet speed 1 mph and gaining. Wheel speed 1 mph. Treadmill speed = 0.

Now start your treadmill. Run it at 100 mph.

Jet speed 1 mph and gaining. Wheel speed 101 mph. Treadmill speed = 100 mph.

Double the speed of the tread mill, same thing. Meanwhile, the jet just keeps on picking up speed relative to the ground.

The tread mill is just making the jet wheel free spin. The force of the engines cannot practically be overcome by spinning the wheels faster. Just like you can't break the rope by spinning the treadmill faster under the shopping cart. You just can't generate the force.

orange 06-04-2009 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagicHef (Post 5817710)
I think orange and I have fundamental differences in how we each view this scenario, so keep that in mind as you are discussing this with us.

I guess you're still using a motor to spin your treadmill?

Baby Lee 06-04-2009 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagicHef (Post 5817710)
I think orange and I have fundamental differences in how we each view this scenario, so keep that in mind as you are discussing this with us.

I think we figured that out long ago, when cdcox pointed out the ambiguity I applauded.

You view the hypothetical as inviolable, the way you read the wording the airplane CANNOT be allowed to move forward or the conveyor is failing in it's [ambiguously] stated mission. If a plane can't move forward it can't take off. And if it takes wheels with Herculean rolling resistance sufficient to counteract the thrust of 4 jumbo jet engines so be it.

However, hypotheticals generally assume [unless stated otherwise] negligible or no friction [rolling resistance]. And in that case the interactions of the wheels and the conveyor are akin to those of molecules flowing under a flying craft or in the water or ice under skids or pontoons on a thusly equipped craft, and they are irrelevant in the dominant force of forward thrust by the engines.

orange 06-04-2009 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cdcox (Post 5817720)
Force of jets - rolling resistance = large positive number

(large positive number) / (mass of jet) = acceleration

Lets say after 1 second, the jet is moving at 1 mph.



Let's not. The jet NEVER MOVES. The treadmill begins spinning at the precise same instant that the wheels start to turn.


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