Plus his hands are better and catch radius... If Mahomes wants to throw up a 50/50 he will have a WR with great chance of winning

I think they're more worried about his availability than his ability.

I agree. I still think that Veach gave him the Juju contract offer and he's not going to take that.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">It&#39;s my understanding that the <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Browns?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Browns</a> currently are not among teams attempting to trade for DeAndre Hopkins. <a href="https://t.co/uKJSukruiI">https://t.co/uKJSukruiI</a></p>&mdash; JosinaAnderson (@JosinaAnderson) <a href="https://twitter.com/JosinaAnderson/status/1638208810765414401?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 21, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I still love the idea of getting DHop. I guess one thing that is a little alarming is that the new scouting report seems to be he doesn’t get open like he used to but he will catch every damn ball you throw his way no matter how close it is. I wonder if that’s more suited for a heave ball qb than an efficient qb like mahomes. But no doubt mahomes would slay and I just want him to have a weapon so we can stop the narrative that he doesn’t need weapons.

I think there's a distinction here.

Mahomes doesn't NEED a weapon like Hopkins. We found out last year that he CAN do it when called upon.

The question is really whether that is sustainable. I think most of us believe it's not.

Obviously no one knows anything right now but my best guess for teams involved are the Chiefs, Patriots and Ravens. Giants could be interested I guess.

Didn't the Bills recently clear up $32M+ in cap space?

Yeah, because they were over. They're at $10 million right now...just like us.

Remember when I said I can't figure out OBJ's motivation?

D-Hop IS one of those ring-chasing vets and a guy who might be able to force himself into HoF consideration with a strong late-career surge.

And if he won't convert his base into bonus, his pool of suitors is going to dry up fast. He has a lot of say in where he lands here.

He's not going to the Ravens who don't actually have a QB right now. Or the Giants or Patriots who ain't winning shit. I mean...unless they decide to throw a MASSIVE pile of money at him.

If he's at all motivated by a potential championship and/or a chance to stack up some numbers, he can put his thumb on the scale and the Chiefs would absolutely have to be considered the favorites at that point, right?

And surprisingly the Bills are only projected to have $1 million in cap space next year. Weird.

If i had to pick a "stealth" team to emerge out of nowhere it'd be Buffalo.

You would think that we would be. That PED suspension might **** us though because it got rid of his no trade clause.

Brandon Cooks trade 2023 5th and 2024 6th.

Is Hopkins better than Cooks, yes but Cooks is very good and still very productive.

Hopkins trade 2023 4th and 2024 5th. That should get it done. I just dont see a 3rd after the Cooks deal.

Cards need another RB, a 4th and CEH could be another option. He is still a 1st round RB on a rookie contract. They may feel its enough sweetner to do it.

Cards threw in a broken David Johnson to sweeten the deal in the trade for Hopkins, you never know.

Hmmm....they'd be an interesting spot for him as well.

Wonder if he and Diggs would complement each other. Probably? They could use Diggs a little more downfield and have Hopkins backfill the underneath routes that Diggs was running while Davis was out there dropping passes last season.

Yuck. Imma pretend none of you fellas pointed this out.

Eh - again, I think he effectively has one.

If the Cardinals say "We need you to bonus out your salary to effectuate a deal" and if he doesn't like the answer when he responds "to where?" then he can tell them to pound sand.

I don't see anybody simply absorbing his $19 million base next season. He's going to have to cooperate to get a deal done.

I don't know how they make it work capwise though. That would take a ton to work around because they're pretty short on space in 2024.

Man do you remember all those tight-window throws to JuJu and even MVS last year, where there was literally no separation?

https://i.imgur.com/ApmKc1K.gif

https://i.imgur.com/ZgqcIgP.gif

Now you got a guy who is the best in the NFL at that shit.

Mahomes will do this all ****ing season with D-Hop.

https://i.imgur.com/BSZwk0r.gif

In '21 and prior, the tight window throws plagued us because Tyreek (and others) would often double-clutch the ball and it would bounce to a defender for a turnover.

I wouldn't say Mahomes is scared to make those throws or prefers not to because of his own skills, I'd say he's just been burned by his receivers in the past.

Julio Jones is 110% an exception and NOT the norm. The wheels fell off and his body folded. How many more examples are there out there of an all-time great wide receiver having zero left in the tank after the age of 30? I have 15+ examples of all-time greats that played at an extremely high level well into their 30s.

Brilliant!

So he basically still has a no trade clause, this is going to happen!

Spot on, notice he trusted JuJu and Fortson. Guys that havent burned him.

Mahomes/Hopkins would be another level!

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Bill Belichick on DeAndre Hopkins: &quot;If you open NFL receiver in the dictionary, his picture is next to it. Gets open and catches the ball. Doesn&#39;t matter what the route is, doesn&#39;t matter what the coverage is, doesn&#39;t matter where the ball&#39;s thrown, or what the situation [is].&quot; <a href="https://t.co/Oso5E2XNUu">pic.twitter.com/Oso5E2XNUu</a></p>&mdash; Rivers McCown (@riversmccown) <a href="https://twitter.com/riversmccown/status/1199803139664359424?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 27, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Something isn't right with Cooks. On paper he looks nice, but every team/HC has basically bailed on him after just a season or two.

Would you put Hopkins in the 'all time great' camp?

Because for many of those guys, they became all time greats by VIRTUE of their performance in their 30s. It's a self-selecting group; it's how they accumulated those numbers - by simply continuing to play at a very high level for another 3-4 years into their 30s.

For example, at 29 Chad Johnson looked for all the world like an 'all-time great' and then...wasn't. Nobody considers Roddy White an 'all time great' but through his late 20s he put up 6 consecutive 1,000 yard seasons and averaged almost 1,300 yards/season over that span.

He plays 3-4 more years at that level and his numbers land him in the top 15-20 of all time. But he didn't. He isn't considered an 'all time great' BECAUSE his didn't perform into his mid 30s.

Playing well into their mid-30s is what makes the majority of these guys fall into 'all-time great' status with notable exceptions like Julio Jones and Calvin Johnson who took the Sandy Koufax/Pedro Martinez route and were just so damn dominant in their primes that they didn't need longevity.

I don't think Hopkins falls into that latter category and I don't see anything to confidently state he'd qualify for the former.

And again - I'm offering him $15 million/season here; i'm not saying he'll suck. But I think I'm pricing in the risk of collapse into my offer.

I know we made due with less than stellar wr play but we lost a 1000 yard receiver and we have to do something to replace that. We can go WR in the first but Andy and rookie receivers never have an impact year 1. We should be all over this move.

Uuuuhhhh-no they can't. Current available cap is a little over $9.5M. Before you start on the Jones deal, it's not officially done yet and no one outside of Veach and Jones's people know what the terms are.

As much as I'd like to lay a 50 burger on the hated Raiders (and 49 on the Donkeys) every game, I never want to see a repeat of the DICK Vermin years again.

Desean Jackson and Jeremy Maclin both were incredibly productive their rookie seasons. Has quite a bit more to do with the guys we take. We've taken 3 WRs in the first 3 rounds for Reids entire tenure here. Conley, Hardman and Moore.

Yeah I agree but Hopkins is almost in the same category it just takes 3/4 seasons. Is that their fault? Is it the teams fault?

Dont know for sure but thats what makes WRs like this available to us.

No better team or Coach than Chiefs/Andy to handle a player on his 2nd or 3rd chance. (or 5th/6th in the Cooks case, LOL)

Toney had 12 regular season games total as a member of the NYG and immediately contributed heavily once he got here.

-30 years old
-Missed seven games last year
-Bloated contract
-Requires giving up a solid mid-round selection

This does not fit the profile of guys Veach likes to trade for. I'm not buying it unless ARZ absorbs a nice chunk of that contract. Clearly he's not who he once was.

I don't think a single person has an issue with Toney when he's on the field, it's the can't stay on the field issue that makes him impossible to rely upon.

But you know what fits the model, going into the season with a shit show at WR right?

It's more further disproving the point that rookie WRs won't be productive here. They absolutely can be.

He missed most of those games last year due to a suspension for PED's, not an injury.

Also the Chiefs have successfully signed/traded for DE's who were over 30 during the past few years... Ingram and Dunlap... no reason they can't do the same with a WR who is 30 years old.

Oh yea, especially now because well there's nothing blocking them. If this team doesn't move on a vet WR I'd place the odds on a rookie WR getting a ton of snaps pretty high.

I would say he's an all-time great. The greatest ever, maybe not. But in the conversation for top -10 all-time? Just look at the list of QBs he's had to deal with, and he still posted six 1,000+ yard seasons, and another that was 40 yards short of 1,000 yards, with Brock Osweiler and Tom Savage as his QBs.

Give me another example of an all-time great WR that has had a worse group of passers to contend with, because I honestly can't think of one. And coaching. Holy Mother of God.

How many great WRs would do as well as Deandre, much less better, given the QBs and HCs/OCs that he's carried in his career?

He's been elite, in spite of his QBs and coaches, and unlike most great WRs, he's had to do it almost entirely by himself.

Trying to predict Veach's moves is the thing, but some of ya'll have to understand that "talented" fits the profile of what Veach likes.

If the player is talented, Veach probably has interest. But Veach def strikes me as a "this is the value i place on you, otherwise kick rocks" guy.

He's not blind to talent. But he's not going to exceed what he believes he can reasonably afford to spend on that talent.

So we gotta stop with the "he's too old, he plays 'this' position, he's too often injured etc etc".

None of that actually fits Veach's pattern.

Now, those things play a role in determining a player's value, but if the player is willing to play for Veach's assigned value and he's talented, then we have a match.

THAT'S the pattern that's developed over the years.

Not this, "He's too old, he's too slow, he plays this position therefore.." shit. That aint it. He ain't ruling dudes out because of age or 40 times etc. Can they play? And will they play for what we want to pay? Those are the questions you should be asking.

Yeah - I feel like we've played this game already a few times and that dog just don't hunt, IMO.

If you show out, you'll perform here. Those that don't, won't.

And yes, rookies CAN be productive under Andy Reid and oftentimes have been.

The Von Miller move Buffalo II

Closest comparison I can think of is Tony Gonzalez. Consistently producing with crappy QBs and Crappy coaches.

Very difficult to do and certainly should be considered when having the greatest of all time discussion.

I don't remember when/why I went down this rabbithole a few years back, but the bottom line was that Hopkins numbers didn't improve markedly when he went from Hoyer/Mallet to Watson. '14-'15 was virtually identical to '18-'19 for him. And likely would've been better but/for Andre Johnson getting a massive target share in '14.

And as I noted then, that's often the case for possession receivers. They don't need brilliant QB play to fight off someone for the ball. In fact, oftentimes the opposite is true and better QB play negatively impacts their numbers as they aren't having passes forced to them in traffic.

I mean if you truly think that Hopkins will age like some of the all-time superstar receivers did, you should really have no problem taking on that $20 million figure this season, extending him AND giving up a 2nd for him. But I don't think you actually feel like that's the case.

There's a disconnect between "I'd give a 3 and restructure his deal" and "He's going to age like Jerry Rice..."

Fair points. Take away Jerry Rice, Randy Moss and Calvin Johnson and tell me who had better career stats at the age of 30 though. I would bet a lot of money you'd have a hard time putting together a list of more than 3 or 4 receivers. Hopkins has spent the entirety of his career playing in dysfunctional organizations as well. He hasn't played with all time great quarterbacks and high flying offenses.

No question - and that's the only reason I'd be willing to give him $15 million/yr to begin with. Again, I'm not saying he'll suck, I'm simply pricing risk into the equation.

I'm not saying he CAN'T get himself into that group. I'm simply saying I wouldn't call it a given. There's a pretty long list of guys who perhaps weren't quite as good as Hopkins was early on and hit a wall at/near 30 years old. And a fair number who WERE as good as D-Hop.

You have plenty of Calvin Johnson, AJ Green, Michael Thomas examples out there. But maybe Nuke is Andre Johnson? Maybe he plays like a superstar through 32 after appearing to plateau a bit at 30.

I'm willing to take a reasonable gamble on that possibility - but I ain't betting the farm on it.

Can you explain how a mid round selection is solid....

Hopkins or the next Kaindoh - you call it!

Yeah, I'm not sure about that contract being "bloated" either. Seems cheap to me as is but we would have to redo it to get him under the cap regardless.

Being 30 is about the only honest point of the 4 in that post.

He almost matched JJSS production in six fewer games and shit for QB’s. I wouldn’t be so quick to think he can’t produce at a high level.

I'm not going to argue whether he's going to age like Jerry Rice. Only guy I've ever seen do anything like that was TO. That's unicorn stuff.

However, other great WRs have had consistent success past 30, a large number of them in fact. Especially possession-type receivers, because usually their footwork and hands don't fade like speed does.

And Dhop posted 3 consecutive 1,000+ yard seasons with Watson, who isn't elite either, just more mobile than any QB he had prior. Even Watson's accuracy wasn't a huge step up from previous HOU QBs.

Also, watch any DHop highlight reel. Look who he's playing against. It's a who's who of the best DBs in the league. You can actually type in "Hopkins vs." on YT and it's like a library of the best DBs in the league.

Revis, Ramsey, Peterson, R. Sherman, D. Ward, Lattimore, D. Hall, Bouye, X. Howard, Gilmore, McCourty, Tre White . . . And he beats all of them.

And the thing that kind of blows my mind is that he does it over and over in spite of the terrible throws from his QB most of the time (whichever crappy one happens to be throwing in the moment). I mean, not only does he have to find ways to beat all of the best DBs just to get open, but he also has to deal with the shitty passes at the same time.

i said it two or three years ago in some GDT, that DHop would have at least 25%-30% more yards and TDs if Watson could ever place the ball consistently. But too often the pass was too high (so Deandre had to jump for it), down at his ankles, too far out in front (so he had to lay out for it), too far to the outside, behind him, etc. In that game there were at least 4-5 passes that could've gone for a lot more yards or a TD except the placement (or lack of) forced Hopkins to make some crazy athletic play just to snag it, and he never got the chance to RAC.

So personally, I don't have a problem with paying him $19M/$14M (restructured, of course) for the next two seasons (I'm of course assuming he'd be healthy).

The draft capital is a little different. If KC wasn't in serious need of both a quality OT and EDGE this season, I wouldn't have much trouble giving up even a 2nd, because the 64th pick isn't that great anyway. But we are in that spot, so it's tougher to be okay with a 2nd. A 3rd (96th?), I've already said a couple times in this thread I'd do that. There's no one in this draft that's going to come close to replicating what DHop can do in 2023. Maybe we draft a guy that grows into a great WR by 2024 or 2025. But that's still a roll of the dice. There's a better than even chance that doesn't happen.

Hopkins is elite right now. He's played in 91% of all possible games in his career. He's had just two serious injuries that kept him from playing in ten years, and it wasn't the same injury twice, like it was with Odell. The meniscus is apparently repaired already. And his ACL held up.

There's an argument that could be made that DHop is currently available at a small discount, considering what he's capable of, and what Adams/Hill went for last season.

Sneed, Joshua Williams, and Leo Chenal.

ToM bRadY can be found in the 6th!

So you'd rather use our 1 on a WR then?

He did it with Kyler, David Blough, McSorley and Colt McCoy. And if he hadn't been suspended for 6 games, he would've gone over 1,200 yards.

You do realize the draft has some good WR's right.

Our QB is pretty decent actually

Pacheco and Watson were found in the 7th.

You can do that for other players too. Nnadi, O'Daniel or Watts.

Sure but if you are gonna spend one of your high picks on a WR either way, why not trade for the proven commodity?

It also has some VERY good edge prospects, some DT's, and lots of defensive backs. We only have so many picks, you can't fill every hole through the draft.

The Chiefs aren't going to put all their eggs in the draft basket. There's another vet or 2 coming in, whether it's via trade or signing.

The last thing you wanna do is pigeon hole yourself into, we have to take a WR first.

And Breeland Speaks was found in the 2nd. You can cherry pick until your face turns blue, the simple fact is that you've settled on only one way to fill the roster. That's NEVER a good idea, for any team.

Don't need to.

Exactly.

So you're thinking that the Chiefs should draft someone in the 3rd-4th range and he'll immediately contribute? Like Skyy Moore did?

If they want immediate impact, they'll take a guy in the first 2 rounds. They're not done signing vets yet, you can bet on that.

So I'd give up a second and pay him $26 million over 2.

You'd give up a 3rd and pay him $33 million.

Aren't we just arguing semantics at this point because to my eyes our value of him differs in the margins of it differs at all.

If they make no moves then yea they do, this WR room is really bad at the moment...which is why they will do something because so far Veach has always tried to avoid being pigeon holed like that.

It's kinda funny to me how some of you don't realize the WR room as it sits today is not good.

Veach those were the early days of Brett Veach. He's a seasoned wizard now.

Apparently Skyy Moore is just going to magically become Golden Tate, Toney will never get hurt again and MVS will become consistent after well never being consistent in his entire career!

Yeah, **** it. Who needs a football team. Mahomes can just throw it to himself.

Josh Kaindoh 4th round pick 2 years ago.

Even if you're the biggest Skyy Moore homer, they don't have freakin' bodies to fill the room right now LMAO

When people bring up the Ross' that just speaks to thinking everything will turn to rainbows.

Such a seasoned wizard that our 2nd round pick WR had 33 whole targets.

The way you are looking at this isn't realistic at all.

Mahomes lead the league in passing last year with the same guys, minus Juju.

And let's be honest, there were a lot of times we didn't even know Juju was on the field. Dude had his moments though.

The Ross boys are going to show out!!!

Yeah, let's put it all on Mahomes. Then when retires due to injury at 32, we can all cry in hindsight about them not surrounding him with more weapons.

Just because that worked out last year....doesn't mean you should keep assuming that it will every year.

MVS is inconsistent.
Toney is a question mark for staying on the field.
Moore is a complete unknown.
Kelce is another year older.

We don't even need other players. Mahomes can win games all by himself.

Lamar reportedly "wants to move on" from the Ravens. I just don't see any way they're trading for Hopkins.

Lets not mention that Kelce is getting old...

If you think not adding a vet WR that can be a 1 is the option then you are telling me this team has to go get Jordan Addison, Jalin Hyatt, Quentin Johnston or Zay Flowers and that's that.

No worries, he'll have more than that next year. He just scored his first TD a month ago. LMAO