I'm with Fish on this. If you started out wanting a salt tank, I don't see the jump to a planted tank with vanilla fish. You've got a ton of options for a 100G African cichlid setup.

I wouldn't say cichlids in general are a no-no for planted tanks. Certain species of cihlids are diggers though, and can uproot plants. But certainly not all. I've never really had a problem with plants being uprooted by my fish. It just depends on what you get.

And I didn't mean to sound harsh in regards to "boring starter fish". I'm just not a big fan of the little "dime-a-dozen" varieties that you find in every Petsmart. I grew bored with that a long time ago. I get much more satisfaction in having wide variety of larger fish of different types. It's more of a challenge I guess.

And I agree that clown loaches are pretty cool. But compare that to cichlid varieties like these:

Ngara Flametail cichlid:
http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/8722/bgk4tc.jpg

Tropheus Firecracker cichlid:
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/5...moorii20mo.jpg


Sunshine Peacock cichlid(I have one of these):
http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/5885/219018.jpg

German Red Peacock cichlid(have one of these too, but not old enough to look this good):
http://img802.imageshack.us/img802/3...ec20redpae.jpg

That kind of color and variety is easily possible, and these are all mellow cichlids that would do fine together.

"Betas don't play with others very well at all."

This is a very good point as they really do best in their own tank. However, that wasn't the case w/ my Betta. I originally had him in a 10g w/ my African Dwarf Frogs, then my light fixture died. I said screw it and moved the Betta and Frogs to my 55g. Surprisingly, the Betta keeps to himself. I think as long as your Betta is submissive, you have a large enough tank w/ plenty of hiding spots, and no other long-flowing fin fishes in there, it can work, (IME anyway).

Bettas are also notorious for fighting other Labyrinth fishes, (those that swim to the surface for air). For instance, a Dwarf Gourami is a Labyrinth fish and is a cousin of the Betta. But, again, I had a DG in w/ my Betta, and they did fine. Unfortunately, I had to cull the DG last month due to an illness.

That's another thing to prepare for... disease. It doesn't matter if you do things "right", illnesses can attack fish, (freshwater or saltwater), at any time. Having a quarantine/hospital tank is a must in this hobby.

I've lost plenty to disease. Lost a 6 year old severum a few years ago to Popeye disease. That shit is nasty...

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/2170/231285001.jpg

Basically the fish's eyes swell up until they eventually explode or the fish dies, or both.

Water quality is usually to blame, but not always. I've heard that often times disease is spread through bad feeder fish you put in the tank.

I didn't think you were being that harsh, Fish. There is some truth to your post. Cichlids are beautiful and interesting, (I won't argue that). I think the main focus should be to give Silock info on what he prefers. He said that he's had Cichlids in the past, but then mentioned that he wanted to try a planted Community tank. This is why I'm giving my input on the subject.

That sucks. I've been fortunate and never had to deal w/ Popeye. I've had to deal w/ Ich, Columnaris, Swim Bladder Disease, Bent Spine, and Neon Tetra Disease though and what a pain in the ass! My water quality is pristine too, so I agree that there could be other factors that play into why fish get diseases.

Popeye is EXTREMELY easy to treat. The best thing you can do is aid medication absorbtion and protect the underlying tissue by swabbing it with Methylene Blue.

The biggest factor that plays into fish susceptibility to disease, IMO, is their origin. Neon tetras have a high mortality rate because they're genetically "watered-down". Some fish, like otocinclus catfish, are fragile because their wild-caught and the methods used are often very traumatic for the fish.

EDIT: I've had virtually ZERO opportunistic infections (Columnaris, Saprolegnia fungus, etc.) since installing a quality UV sterilizer.

FYI, male bettas make GREAT tankmates for community fish. You just can't keep them with fish that are notorious fin-nippers because they'll get abused and you, obviously, can't keep them with other male bettas.

HEY PORKER~ Long time, no see!

Whoa!!! Hit Smack!

What are you doing here???

Man this is a blast from the past.

How the hell are you???????

Amazon Sword - bought one, now have 3. Slow growers but very pretty. When they shoot up the central stalk and it starts to bud, cut it off and plant it.

Anacharis - really best in a colder tank. Supposedly one of the easiest aquarium plants to keep but in my tanks (all 78-80 degrees) they don't last.

Cabomba - another cold-water plant, does better in ponds.

Anubias Nana or Dwarf Anubias - VERY slow grower, plant it in shaded areas as it will grow algae. Attracts black "beard" algae which is nearly impossible to get rid of short of plucking leaves and throwing them away.

Java Fern - slow grower, doesn't need much of anything and can do well even in low light. Reproduces by forming new plants at the tips of its leaves, so if you can wait, you only need 1. I bought 1 about a year ago and now have 12 in 2 different tanks.

Cryptocoryne Wendtii (green or red) - another hardy, low-light plant. Reproduces through runners and will eventually spread vigorously. Another one I bought 1 of and now have several.

Some other plants that deserve mention:

Ludwigia Repens (red Ludwigia) - stalk plant, grows in bunches. I've found it to be much more forgiving of a tropical Amazon setup (higher temp, lower pH) than Cabomba and Anacharis. With the right lighting and ferts, it turns a rosy red.

Hygrophilia Difformis - VERY forgiving plant. The biggest issue I've had with it is that it grows TOO well. Three 6-inch stalks now covers nearly 1/3 of my 55G tank, substrate to surface.

Somebody knows their plants! :thumb:

:)

I'm completely obsessed. I've done DIY CO2, built my own powered reactors, I buy granulated fertilizer ingredients online and mix my own ferts, I've built a custom light fixture for my daughter's 14G tank and it goes on and on and on.

I'll post some pics later - all I'm getting right now is the glare coming in from the south door...

My 55G tank is on the left. My daughter's 14G tank is on the right.

http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/q...h_DSC00733.jpg http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/q...h_DSC00721.jpg

Where the **** you been?

http://thumbs.anyclip.com/tpWcqw7C4/tmb_1930_480.jpg

Fine together but what about with non cichlids? I don't want a cichlid only tank. Wife wants glofish and tetras.

Beautiful tanks! I especially like what you did w/ the Driftwood! I have a 12" piece of Mopani for my Pleco and tried adding plants to it, but it was full of fail. I attached Anubias and Java Moss to it, but the bastard keeps knocking them off the wood. :doh!:

That's all she wants?

No, I made a list earlier in the thread. That list wasn't comprehensive, either. It was just what we found on liveaquaria. I'm sure there are more species out there that are very colorful (preferring reds and blues) that aren't cichlids.

I had a 60 gal freshwater tank that was super easy to maintain. But then I accidentally killed 2 fish, my eel died mysteriously, and I was sad. Don't ever love is what I'm saying.

I've used quite a bit of Mopani (the wood you see in the 14G tank is actually Mopani). I've attached Java fern and moss to Mopani with no issues and if you look closely at the 14G picture, behind the leaves of the Amazon sword, there's a java fern attached to the middle piece at the top. Of course, I don't have a pleco so you can probably guess which one is your issue. ;)

I actually had more problems getting them attached to the new driftwood because it was so smooth (I ended up using the girls' little rubber bands for pony tails :)) Mopani has so many little cracks and crevices, there's lots of places to stick plants. Here are some of my previous attempts:

http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/q...3-16_moss2.jpg http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/q.../th_middle.jpg

My problem with Mopani is that it's so dense. In terms of tank decor, it eventually becomes more like a ROCK than a piece of wood, settling to the bottom and becoming un-assuming, which is the last thing you want from your centerpiece driftwood. I actually had some interesting Mopani arrangement but ultimately opted for the much more visually impressive hardwood piece you see in the pic I posted yesterday.

No.

Cichlids will make quick work of glofish and tetras. What she wants is an Amazon-style freshwater tank, which is what I have. Softer water (lower pH), plants, etc. Cichlids (with some notable exceptions) are from Africa and water is hard with not alot of plants (because the Cichlids will destroy them). In fact, there's only certain Cichlids that can cohabitate. If you go with Cichlids, you're going to only have Cichlids (and perhaps some bottom dwellers like Pleco).

Like KC Fish said, alot of freshwater community fish are kind of boring. If you want "interesting" my daughter has Kuhli loaches.

http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/f...585684-800.jpg

She also has Killifish, which much like Bettas, have coloful males. This is what her's look like:

http://koti.phnet.fi/monea/Epiplatus...opertsport.jpg

If you want to get some color but don't want Cichlids, I strongly recommend Colombian Tetras - they're my favorite fish.

http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/f...533925-800.jpg

Pretty much. Fish die, they just do.

just google it

Well much obliged, Lumpy.

I'll graciously concede that freshwater crown to you, though (or htismaqe w/ the late run). I know a fair amount about cichlids and that's about it. Everything else I just kinda chuck in there and hope they live.

When you have to cross your fingers and pray that your $100 Clown Tang starts eating in the 10 or so days it's going to have before it starves to death (and invariably it won't), you develop something of a callous attitude about the loss of a .99 cent molly. So I've not done nearly the homework I should on community fish.

And the plants are way above my head.

There are a handful of cichlids you can try with that bunch, but they're still iffy and can be pretty susceptible to bad water conditions.

I've found that I really enjoy the shell dwellers; they're fairly small Tanganyikans that breed like rabbits. They're very passive and fascinating to watch. They're kinda like the sea-monkeys of the cichlid kingdom in that they're constantly interacting with each other. That said, they're pure bottom runners, so they're more of a supplemental addition, IMO.

Bolivian Rams are awfully neat, especially when they pair off. They can be fairly colorful, but not always. Blue and Gold rams can be extremely attractive, but just a small water spike will kill them off. Usually right about the time they pair off and become badass, you'll look in the tank to see 'em floating. Kribensis could work as well (not a Rock Krib; those are Victorian and mean as hell, just a regular Kribensis).

Here's what I'd suggest - Rainbows.

http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/rainbowfish/

They're extremely colorful, like cichlids. They' significantly more docile, though. They'll school better than Cichlids (who mostly just form territories and go to war). They seem to be much more in line with what your wife is looking for. If you're looking for a planed tank, these are unquestionably the way to go. I've had decent luck with them in the past, before I let my freshwater tank go to seed.

(!@#$ it, just save up your nickels and go saltwater; you'll never go back ;) )

I've got two mollies left in my FW tank - they were born in the tank before I was wise to how much of a nuisance livebearers are. And of course, because I don't really care much for them, they're as healthy as an fish you'll ever see. :D

My next large tank is gonna be Mbuna cichlids. I just haven't been able to talk my wife into it yet since I have 2 tanks and a large koi pond already.

I second this suggestion. I was looking to go Boesemani Rainbow before I got into the Colombians...

I had some tank-born cichilds that were freakin' indestructible.

I never figured out what was paired with what, but they were pretty obviously some form of pseudotropheus. The damn things were all the same orange color, even though I didn't have any red zebras in the tank.

It was kinda neat watching 'em because you could start to figure out which ones had a chance to survive. Every now and then you'd see one motoring about in the open water and you knew it was dead to rights. Then you'd see this tiny little orange dot stick its head out from under a rock then dart right under as soon as it saw you. You knew that one had kinda figured out that every other living thing in that tank would eat it so it had to lay low for a bit.

the mouthbrooders are kinda cool, until you end up with a tank full of orange mutt cichlids.

I'm gonna flip back. My community tank sucks, I'm bored to death of it. I think I'm just going to drain it altogether and pitch the gravel (black and white gravel I've had since 2002). I'm going to go with fine sand as the substrate and either make a Tanganyika/Rainbow tank or just go back to the Mbunas. In either event, I've learned a lot more about rockscaping since I set up my saltwater tank, so I'm going to go pretty heavy on rock to make it work a little better.

It will take the better part of a weekend and the tank's in my office, so it will probably have to wait until after the holidays...at which time I will probably decide that it's not worth the effort again and just get a blue-jaw trigger for the reef...

I had 50 gal with puffers back in high school. Lasted about 4 years and then everything died.

Only about 2 years ago did I find out from a mom-n-pop that most puffers put out a poison that kills everything when they die.

Shame. I had figure 8's, spotted, had one about 1 & 1/2 inches around and about 3 long (fresh water) and some black mollies.

First one died and erased the tank.

Still enjoyed them more than any other fresh/brackish fish...

I threw a figure 8 puffer out the window of Centennial Hall at Truman and into the ventilation fan below my window several years ago.

That little bastard was wrecking everything he could get near and I'd had enough of that. So I netted him and chucked him out the window. He one-hopped off the laundry facility roof and into the fan.

It was in more early, far more impetuous days of owning a fish tank; my original 42 gal hex (which I still want to set up as a seahorse tank one of these days; perfect shape for it).

Not one of my better moments.

Excellent suggestion. Assuming your pH is pretty neutral, I'd pair them with some cool catfish, like these Synodontis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synodontis_multipunctata

That's where I'm going next.

My planted tank is black substrate (black Seachem Flourite) and with the wood, plants, and everything it's very "warm" on the color spectrum.

My next tank I'm gonna do Mbuna cichlids with rockscapes instead of driftwood/pants and white sand or small grain substrate. Since I won't have any plants needing 6500K full daylight, I want do like a 50/50 lighting setup (10000K/actinic ) similar to what you'd use with saltwater/reef and get a bluish "cool" color spectrum to contrast with the tank I already have.

The upside downers are very cool. I have 2.

http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/q...h_DSC00722.jpg

I was going to say you're too kind, but then I read this post...

:eek: JFC!!!!

LMAO

I had a synodontis decorus I lost in the great tank disaster (we don't talk about the great tank disaster..) as well as a couple of cool lace cats. They got along great with the cichlids and they're a lot of fun.

The most interesting part about them was their reaction to water changes. Anytime I did a heavy water change, they were 100x more active than they were in bad water. They were essentially the caged canary of my fish tank. When they were looking sluggish and not coming out much, I knew it was time for a water change.

Tang tanks are way cool. Assuming you rock it up, there's usually little aggression. Julis, altolamps, shell dwellers, etc all work well.

Not sure if any of you fishkeepers have an octopus in your tank, but I thought this was a good article on the intelligence of octopi. Just thought I'd share (long read)

http://www.orionmagazine.org/index.p...s/article/6474

Hey, Silock. Just checking in to see you if you found a fish tank yet?

Thanks to you assholes sparking my curiosity and a friend who was moving and giving me a 10 gallon tank, supplies and 5 fish, I've got a fish tank bubbling next to my desk right now, making me have to piss.

The kids love it so far. I hope it's not too big of a pain in the ass.

Also, it came with a big ass plattydaddypus or some goofy looking black algae sucker that hangs on the side like a hobo with a sign. It's too big and needs a new home so I can put some shiny little bastards in it.

I am going to drop a couple of deer antlers in it. You'll Swim around that and you'll like it, Nemo.


another aquaintence is trying to sell me a 30 gallon setup already for a hundo, but I'm not sure I'm that dedicated yet.

Um, you're welcome? :D

I blame you asshole. When they die I'm going to have 2 crying little girls call you.

I don't even know what I have. I think 2 angelfish, 1 that looks like a small bluegill(1") and a pink thing I think they said is a glow fish, and then the big fat plattydaddypus.

plecostomous(sp). what a fantastic algae eater. good luck with your now overactive bladder.

Who you callin' an asshole? Asshole. I didn't make the damn thread. :D

Btw, it sounds like your big fat hobo plattydaddypus is a Common Pleco. If it is, yeah, you had better rehome that guy... and quick! I have one in my 55 gallon and he's already a foot long, (they can reach up to 2').

Edit: Here are a few pics of my Common Pleco so can see if that's what you have in your tank.

r

Q

i had a pleco in my first tank, was just a little turd. had him about 4 or 5 years, and he was about 18'' (that's what she said). just a great horrific looking fish.
out of the blue he croaked. i purchased another one, and he died within days. no other fish did, so i just decided no more.
got to have the bottom feeders in all setups (insert social joke here).

They are pretty badass. The only problem w/ the Common Pleco is, when you have a planted tank, they uproot everything! It's annoying as all hell placing all the plants back in the gravel just so the li'l bastard can do it again.

wasn't aware of that. i never had live plants. really, all i had was mossy-leafy stuff that floated at the top for hiding/cover for the little fish.

yep, that'd piss me off to no end.

Well, aside from that BS, I can watch that guy for hours, (that's what the guy in the xxx store said). What's really cool is when they blink. The first time I saw that, it freaked me the hell out!

When I had my 2 lb Oscar (guessing... idk he was freakin huge) I think I liked my stinkin plecco even more. When I bought him he was maybe an inch long and only there for the obvious tank cleaning reasons. By the time he died he was easily a foot long and a few inches wide across his head and he actually had personality which I'd never seen in a plecco before. He'd come up and say hi when I feed Oscar. (oh... no algae or crap for me? thanks asshole)

I've heard of people training their Pleco to be fed by hand. I tried that once. He just freaked the hell out and splashed my ass. I chucked an algae wafer at his head, he ducked, then he flipped me the fin. I think he really understands me now.

Not yet. I keep checking Craigslist for a good deal. Just hasn't happened yet.

Wait, you talk fish when you go to buy porn and sexual gadgets?

somehow after reading about the "helicopter" manuever the other night, is it any wonder? :eek:

She likes the "Gonzo-Copter" every now and again. I just try not to hit her with it upside the head. Last time I did that? Knocked her out cold.
Posted via Mobile Device

wow. just too much info, brotha. i mean, that's great for you guys and everything. but i don't think i can finish my cheerios now.:D

Damn it, Kyle! That wasn't what I was meaning! ROFL

Follow along now, childwen... I don't have the time to bust out the Crayolas!

Cabletech posted this...

Then I posted this...

Cheerios? WTF are you, some kind of tree-hugging, pansy? :p

Scalloped Hammerhead:

http://images.nationalgeographic.com...68_600x450.jpg

Cleaner, yes.

Algae eater? No. Actually not at all.

Plecos and other foragers (I like Corydoras catfish because they stay small) will eat food that falls to the bottom and will clean up some of the detritus in tanks, but they don't eat algae.

If you want true algae eaters, the Otocinclus catfish is very good at eating green hair algae, as long as you get them before the algae gets established. They eat the new growth, so if you get them early, the algae never gets a foothold. Siamese algae eaters and their cousins the flying fox are good at removing black and beard algae too.

In defense of the pleco, they can reduce the amount of algae you have because the stuff they eat would eventually decay, leading to nitrate buildup and the eventual growth of algae. But their effect is indirect.

yup, you're right, dude! this is true and right. my bad. and yes, the cory cats do a great job of eating algae. it's been a few years since i had any of those fish.
now i'm getting the itch to restart my tank(s).

it was the breakfastist thing i could think of. haven't eaten breakfast in a few weeks.
and what if i'm fighting my cholesteral levels, trying to be a better person?:cuss:

This thread really makes me want to get an aquarium up and running again. Had a 55G mbuna tank for a number of years that I really enjoyed, but eventually let it go after I lost a bunch of fish due to a combo of neglect and disease. I always wanted something bigger, anyway - a 90 or 125. Maybe after I move in the spring, I'll dive back in.

I always wanted to get some Ps Demasoni, but they don't play well with others. I thought a Demasoni and Yellow Lab tank would be pretty cool, but also wanted more variety. Wish those things weren't so aggressive.

I had a pair of Ps Acei breed in my tank last time, which was pretty cool.

I had a trio of Synodontus Petricola, which were awesome little cats. They would cruise around the tank together, and were awesome looking fish. Would probably get some more of those, were I to do it again...

right before i let my tank go the wayside, i'd almost talked myself into starting up another tank, probably +size of 55 gallons--making it exclusively for cichlids. that's probably the route i'll go when i start back up. little more expensive fish (esp with the more colored varieties). but they're just so lively. good luck to you, friend.

Stop right now. You're making me want to cruse CL for tanks. I had some awesome wild caught petricola that died from floor polish fumes.

DO IT!

http://kansascity.craigslist.org/for/2695448036.html

http://kansascity.craigslist.org/for/2730172242.html

http://kansascity.craigslist.org/fuo/2694397546.html

http://kansascity.craigslist.org/hsh/2728166438.html

http://kansascity.craigslist.org/for/2709125112.html

Oh, sure... make me feel bad. :huh:

So, is there a market to get rid of an oversized plecosaurus? I'm guessing this one is 8-10"

If by market you mean you could pay someone to take it off your hands, then yes.

Not really, (at least not in Omaha). I placed mine on Craigslist for $10 and the only guy that was interested wanted him for free. I told him to get bent and deleted my ad. From what I understand, some fish stores will take them and may or may not give you a store credit.

Local pet stores will often accept your existing fish and give you some sort of store credit for it. As long as it looks healthy. I've done this numerous times. They won't give you "market" value for it obviously, but it's better than having to cull the fish because it's too big. Ask around and see if any of the local stores will accept it. Don't bother with Petsmart or Petco or any chain stores though.

You might be able to sell it or give it away on craigslist...

R

:moon:


I not type fastest.....

LMAO

Okay, so I picked up a 30 gallon off of craiglist for $80 with a stand, filter and light (and miscellaneous decorations that I probably won't ever use). This will eventually be my sump tank when I find a good deal on a much larger tank, but this will get me started.

I picked up a retrofit 55w CFL kit from AH supply to replace the 20w fluorescent in my hood. This is purely to keep the costs down. Picking up the substrate for a cichlid tank later this week, if not tomorrow. Also, going to get some rocks (tested with vinegar first) to put in there to give them some hiding places. Going to throw some plants in there along with 1-2 cichlids at first to get the cycle going.

Will update with pics.

:thumb: Excellent! Can't wait to see pics! If you want, I can ship you some filter media to help kick-start your cycle. I use Bio-Bags, (no carbon). Just let me know if you want me to send one your way.

I was under the impression that I wouldn't really need that since the plants will soak up the ammonia and keep it from killing the fish. Am I wrong?

Need to let your water cycle for at least a week before you put fish in. Or your fish WILL DIE. (duh)

[QUOTE=Silock;8198808]Okay, so I picked up a 30 gallon off of craiglist for $80 with a stand, filter and light (and miscellaneous decorations that I probably won't ever use). This will eventually be my sump tank when I find a good deal on a much larger tank, but this will get me started.

U got a pretty damn good deal. Considering that a brand new 55 gal retails for about99 bucks retail. Nice

Plants don't absorb ammonia. Plants absorb nitrates. The bacteria you need convert ammonia to nitrates.

You either need live media, like Lumpy offered to send you, or you need to get something like Fritz Zyme Turbo Start.

If you go the Turbo Start route, it MUST be bought at a local LFS and it MUST be refrigerated. If you buy Bio Spira off the shelf somewhere, chances are it's useless because the bacteria are dead.