Agreed. We're much better off going with an old fart veteran for at least another season.

Hopefully Croyle eventually bursts forth from the clipboard-holding cacoon and turns out to be a great QB

Croyle needs to bulk up. He needs to go through a healthy training camp first, take the reps, have the game slow down for him. Even in the little action he got, he made some rookie mistakes. Plus, I like the idea of working rookie QB's in slowly.

I don't think Kurt Warner is a fair comparison to anybody. How many Kurt Warners are there out there? You don't see too many guys walking in off the street at any position and putting up HOF numbers.

My hope going into the season was that Mike Solari could be a good care-taker on offense. The Roaf retirement and Green injury screwed up that. Now that we have to teach new players the system -- that's when we are going to miss the expertise of Vermeil and Saunders. Vermeil and Saunders taught the players well. Unfortunately, they're gone, and there is no one left to teach it. All this shit was so predictable, other than the accelerated rebuilding timetable, and that is hardly a shocker.

The offensive minds are gone, and we're screwed.

Missing my point. Not saying Croyle can put up HOF numbers. He's no Kurt Warner. My point is that Herm's argument that young players can't pick up this offense is bullshit. Drew Brees was *okay* in it his first year.

The real reason we have to simplify the offense is that no one on our staff is capable of teaching it, along with the fact that Herm thinks playbooks are unnecessay. Solari is capable of running it -- but running it and teaching it are two different things.

Hey Coach Dumbass Edwards, the scheme is not the goddamn problem, the players already know it and set RECORDS WITH IT. Use your goddamn head, if you have one!

Only a f**king moron could take over this team, watch the offense flop, then blame the SYSTEM for it. I mean... the offensive system has always been a problem right?

I now like Herm even less, but so long as it's nothing that's HIS fault... see? It's Vermeil's fault for the system that's to complicated for 11 players who were in the same offense last season. What?!

This clown makes no sense, I'm already tired of him. We need some personell upgrades... change is not always improvement.... in this case it's a way of skirting blame for a piss poor gameplan.

How can they 'keep' a play action passing game that was nearly non existant all this season?!

THIS JUST IN:

Herm promises to fix the Royals, Global Warming, and create Peace on Earth.

"Its okaaayyy man, it really is. As we speak these things are being addressed. I promise that things will be okay, it really will okay. When its darkest before the dawn, the silver lining will shine brighter than a bag of...... shiny things and it will be just fine.

If Herm wants to have a successful offense he needs to find some tackles that can actually block. It is that simple.

Herm is pretty clear that Solari will be the O Coordinator. Everyone can stop wishing for a new GM, a new head coach and new coordinators. It is not going to happen.

What does "ride the pine" mean?

Really interesting !!!!!!!

Why isn't this in the KC STAR ?

That's crazy talk!!!

For goodness sakes, look at the damn roster.

NO Willie Roaf
A 37 year old QB
A 34 year old No 1 receiver
A 36 year old guard
A revolving RT position
A 33 year old center
NO TRich
NO Priest Holmes

This is not the same damned team that broke records and kept missing the playoffs. They are older, slower, broken. This #$%^ing system is built on SPEED. We don't have speed anymore. We started losing it last year, the cracks were showing, and this year we totally lost it.

What, did the system look so damned good in 2001 when Al Saunders and Vermeil took over and we went 6-10 with Snoop Minnis catching the ball?

ANY offensive system will look good as long as you have the players with the ability to EXECUTE the system. When the QB is getting killed, is turning the ball over, when we can't block, when the receivers aren't outrunning opponents anymore, it doesn't fit. Use a system that will fit the players and will win ballgames. And get better players, get younger players who can keep up.

What, the Steelers and Pats have been winning the last few Lombardis with a record setting offense?

What I am sick of is pansy ass players who go out and get hit in the mouth by the other team and fold. This offense has been as SOFT as our defense has been, and that's why we have ZERO postseason wins since 1993. We need a damn offense which goes out there and pushes the other team around and a defense that does the same. This team needs to get rid of all the damned wusses playing on it and get some football players who will go out there and lay some wood and win some important games on the *&^%ing road...

Sitting on the bench

Getting a first down would be a productive start.

Make me long for John Mackovic.

Hope? What the hell is that?

Oh, yeah... Something we lost years ago.

I like hearing the players like LJ and Gonzo revolting on him. They won't listen to the fans to maybe they will listen to their own players.

I know, too much to hope for. Er wait... Hope?

:clap: :clap: :clap:
We need a couple of Dale Carters on this team. Big talent, big attitude. I hope we get a couple of mean tackles this offseason.

It means being a follower.

Not leading by example. Following and relying on how to build a team according to what your head coach knows and specializes in, and not taking charge like a leader, and knowing how to step up and do it yourself. I honestly believe that is what Carl Peterson does. Thats why he needs to go imo. People can blame Herm this and that, but it's all useless imo.
He is not the real core of the problem in this organization.

I just want to prove my point about Peterson.

Look at a few of our coaches over the last 10 years:

Marty...great defensive mind, brought a great defense here...But was absolutely lackluster in knowledge when it came to the offensive side of the ball. As a result, we had a great defense, and a terrible offense.

Vermeil...same thing..except vice versa.

I anticipate the same thing will happen to Herm..great defense, terrible offense

*people blame coaches. I praise the coaches for building GREAT defenses, and offenses here. I say blame the GM for being so incompetent and failing to provide them with assistance in areas, sides of the ball where they incredibly lacked knowledge. Call me crazy, but, I honestly believe that is what goes on in this organization. No wonder were so frickn mediocre. Its frustrating.

A new GM isn't crazy talk. In fact, it's getting to the point where it's becoming a reality.

Those two paragraphs illustrate Herm's brilliance.

Instead of giving an experienced QB who could recite the playbook in his sleep the option to audible this season, let's go with an inexperienced QB and give him more flexibility next year.

Nobody will expect it. Pure brilliance!

we only run 4 plays....how in the hell do you simplify that?

and why didn't we play action pass the Colts? you wait till we lose to decide this?

we're going back to Hackett ball....just watch

It's going to be fun to see how they dumb down an already dumb offense.

this is mind blowing

our run up the butt and punt offense is too complicated???

Hi everyone. Post#1 and I know you have heard from plenty disgruntled Jets fans before or ones who "just want to help you out" so I will try not to be too predictable here.

First of all I will self identify as a Jets fan who was in the anti-Herm camp. Fundemantally dishonest snake oil salesman and shameless self promoter about sums it up. Oh, and someone who makes a virtue out of being a likeable dope. Only after he has gutted your team long enough the whole "likeable" thing gets to be a bit questionable.

Anyway, as to the discussion in this thread. Herm is up to his old tricks again I see. If you start from the understanding that NOTHING is ever Herm's fault then you will also appreciate the need for Herm to find scapegoats (plausible or otherwise). So now it is your OC who gets thrown under the bus in large part for doing what Herm ordered him to do. We saw the same thing twice!! First with Teddy Cottrell and then with Paul Hackett. (yes THAT Paul Hackett. A belated thanks to Chiefs fans who came over to our boards and tried to give us a heads up on Hackett).

Anyway, The OC gets blamed, "Changes will be made" but not a firing. And that part is important. Not a firing. This has the effect of deflecting blame away from Herm (today), forcing the OC in a position where he feels grateful to Herm for "saving his job" and finally it gives Herm another year with this guy and a plausible excuse if the same mess happens next year. After all, if the crap hits the fan then Herm was just being too loyal to his guys right? Any improvements on the other hand are because Herm came in and "took charge". And you know he will call a press conference and allude ever so subtly to the Herm-changes that worked.

It is a brilliant strategy.

Anyhow, congrats on having Larry Johnson and I mean that. You could have four of five top 5 picks in the next decade and not find another one like him. I hope the workload does not abbreviate his career. I would take Gonzalez in a heartbeat. He seems to have something left.

With Herm for better or for worse the palyoffs this year, however improbable at 9-7 mean that he is now at four playoffs out of six years (one of six without extreme luck). Four playoffs in six years looks good on paper and Paul Hackett knows what that can mean to the longevity of your career. I think 4-of-6 by itself added AT LEAST one more year to his tenure with the Chiefs and probably added another HC gig to his career after the Chiefs as well.

Good luck.

I agree, this was my worst fear when he took over. He broke the best part of the team.

when your RB sets the NFL record for most carries in a season you lose the right to describe your offense as "too complicated"....

That's not the point at all.

I am not trying to defend Herm here but from everything that I have read the last couple of days the consensus from the Chiefs is this offense looked slow and old on Saturday. I can't necessarily disagree with that.

I think he is wanting to go young so we can play fast again.

He had talent. Look at Detroit. They're a far cry.

THANK YOU.

You pretty much said everything I was going to say.

Nothing lasts forever. All good things must come to an end. Insert cliche here, but it's the damned truth.

You cannot audible very well in this offense. THAT is the point. That's not how this offense works. There are too many packages and motions and shifting for you to be able to sit at the line and audible in and out of a bunch of different plays.

No offense, but that just made me zone out of even trying to read something good out of your post. Herm is either a like him or hate him guy, and for Jets fans, he's always been hated. If you are incapable of being unbiased, how can anyone really take what you say seriously?

thanks for coming over. You know you wasted your breath. LOts of yahoos on this board were hanging Jets fans who tried to tell them ahead of time. Don't be surprised to hear more yahoos tell you to get lost, or yeah we know, etc. etc.
congratulations on a good year post Herm. We hope to have one soon.

I have no problem with anything he said. We need young talent on offense that can make an impact. If the book is too complex, and we know it is, then simplify it so young WR's can get on the field.

Our offense isn't that complicated.

Herm already slashed a lot of the offensive plays when he got here.

Offensive changes...yeah it's called starting over.

Well obviously everyone is going to decide for themselves but I would say the first few years of Herman Edwards with the Jets I was a kool-aid drinker. A Herm defender if you will. I would say that there was a tremendous benefit of the doubt afforded to Herm by the fan base and the media when he was with the Jets, so it really is incorrect to say that Herm has "always been hated" by Jets fans. It makes for an interesting rhetorical strawman but is far from the case. I can see some of that same sentiment here amongst the defenders of Herman Edwards. Over time I expect that you will begin to see more and more of the "I was a Herm defender but this is the final straw..." type posts.

Again, I was not in the anti-Herm camp for much of the time but it was more of a case fool me <insert number of times> shame on me type deal. Looking back I was pretty gullible.

As to your final point, people will take me seriously or not based upon the contrent of my posting. My post here was intended to relate Herm's history of throwing his coordinators under the bus and in slow motion no less. Meaning that he throws them under one year then keeps them around so he can throw them under the next year as he did with BOTH Teddy Cottrell and Paul Hackett. If you don't see a pattern then you do not see it. If on the other hand, you can see a pattern emerging where Herman is never actually to blame for anything bad happening, where Herman always has an OC, or a running back, or a quarterback to blame when things go wrong yet is front-and-center ready to step up to the mic when something goes well then I think you would be seeing the same pattern that I eventually cottoned on to.

Nice Post. We saw that alot this year. Herm chucked Solari under the bus in the pre-season for passing in the redzone... So we have seen this first hand.

Thanks for the info and we love the way Herms talks to us at his press conferences... How dare we question the Great Herm Edwards..

This guys is a joke and a disgrace to Lamar Hunt's memory...

Rep sir.

Yeah, let's do take a look at Detroit. Completely changing schemes, going from a West Coast offense to a Coryell offense, Detroit improved quite a bit -- 40 yards per game and 4 points per game. Yeah, the offense is just too ****ing hard to learn...

With the shifts this offense does you can not audible out of a play. There is not time.

When was this team ever FAST? This team was certainly not built on speed. We were setting records on offense despite one of the worst WR corps in the league. Under the old regime, the offense was greater than the sum of their parts. No longer. It's that simple.

I think it is probably like Paul (3rd-and-long draw play) Hackett, the gift that seems to keep on giving. He still plying his trade in Tampa last time I checked. There is a bit of a "greater fool" theory going on where there is always someone else it seems who is willing to give him a job.

In one sense Herm provided the (what looks to be good) timing that led the Jets to Mangini. He also provided the 4th rounder that was well spent on Leon Washington. In that sense Herm had his pluses.

The playoffs this year I think will lead to several more years of Herm at Arrowhead. I don't know how strong the ownership is in KC but many teams would not want to expose themselves to the accusation that they are racially motivated in getting rid of a coach. Fortunately for the Jets, the manner of Herm's departure saved us from those charges.

Great post and rep to you,

But you have to have a coach that can get the players to play for him... That can get his coordinators to plan and scheme their opponents. One that trust his staff...

Can we have one of those coaches?

I like what he's saying here. Face it, people, we don't have the personnel anymore to run the Al Saunders variant of Air Coryell. Willie Roaf is gone and Will Shields (along with everyone else) is a year older. The line can't pull for the stretch play anymore and the center is undersized for power running (not to mention the absence of a top notch blocking fullback). Trent Green was great when he had solid protection from his pass blockers, but he struggled in both years when Willie Roaf didn't anchor that line. What Herm seems to be saying is that he's going to consider modifications to the scheme to fit the talent he has available. I think that's a great idea.

It needs to be done.

I want to give the quarterback even more ability to change some things at the line of scrimmage. I want him to have the ability to get to anything we have right now.

Shoulda done that this year with Trent...

No. He fell to the third round because of injuries. The guy played in a pro-style offense at Alabama.

I think he'll compete for the starting job this year - just as Montana did his second year. How was Montana any more ready in his second year? If I'm not mistaken Montana played sparingly in college.

Good article, BTW. Herm has us headed in the right direction. I liked this part:

That is pretty laughable..

Herm and offense in the same sentence...

**** Herm. When he came here the offense worked. All he needed to do was fix the D but nooooooooo not Herm he wanted to fix the #2 offense in football. Congratulations Herm.

:hmmm: Herm and offense did not appear in the same sentence anywhere in that post.

Really? No kidding? Peterson? No shit? Peterson? I love it when fans from other teams tell me about a problem this team has had for 17 years as though I didn't know it existed.

Getting younger, more athletic, faster players involved in offense is a priority. Reducing a truncated play book baffles me. Herm identifying Solari as using an entire regular season to "learn the passing game" is shocking.

There is no doubt in my mind that young athletic WRs and OLmen are in demand. With the right scheme, KW could do a lot that TG is doing now if TG left and we had cap room to shop for some younger talent. The "win now" window is closed. DAWolf is correct. Its time for a youth movement. If that means a new scheme, so be it. I would prefer Huard stay and run that new scheme until Croyle matures, unless Croyle can beat him out in camp.

Let's not forget that DV brought his Rams QB, his Rams coaches, his Rams playbook and a few Rams players with him when he made that journey on I-70 West in 2001. This roster is NOT capable of running even a run-heavy version of the GSoT anymore.

Here's my only problem - what variation of the Coryell system used big receivers? It seems like we have the personnel now to switch to the west coast w/power running (ala Seahawks and Packers), but we're stuck with an offensive coordinator that's never run that system and a quarterback who knows Coryell. What now?

Just keep "Remember the Titans" away from Herm. They had 6 plays.

Dear lord ... i think i just puked in my mouth a little. :Lin:



:banghead:

you don't change offenses WITHOUT changing the offense staff. This is not an attack on Solari ... but you really don't want your Offensive Coordinator learning the system while trying to teach the new system to the players.

that is just a disaster waiting to happen

the same stupid ass thing Vermeil did with the defense




simplify .... cutting back on plays???

holy crap, how much simplier can a gameplan be than what we ran against the colts.


i feel sick ... i really feel sick :sulk:

As far as Solari goes, I'm not his biggest proponent. But in his defense, how can an OC feel comfortable calling pass plays downfield when the WR's can't get separation. The perfect pass is not a way to base your offense passing. Let Tony G go, use his money to get some WR help. Kennison is a borderline number two. Parker shouldn't see the field, and it's time Dante moves on. Use Bennett as KR/PR.

Herm said Solari was "learning the passing game" this year.
:shake:

HEY Herm Haters!!!

I got this to say, you have to at least respect the idea that he is seriously looking at his philosophy and his player's abilities, the success and failures this year and willing to change to become better, and this makes you bit*h at him?

They ran the same offense, but the playcalling was more conservative, exp. when green went down. We've all heard how complex the playbooks are, the motions, the amount of looks, etc. Maybe it is time for that offense to go away, the players aren't the same for it anymore.

My point is; it takes a man to admit he's wrong and make changes, hard as hell for me personally, and to have herm already saying he want's to look at this, means he won't be sitting around doing nothing, he'll be proactive to make improvments, not going to off to make wine.

No system will work with this bad of an o-line and that is all on Carl.

Shields is done, Wiegman has declined, and I have no hope for any of the flunkies the Chiefs used at either tackle position. Outstide of maybe Waters the Chiefs have giant holes all across the OL. Carl had plenty of time to groom replacements and he didn't get it done.

That has to mean, learning how to call pass plays with our WR corp. truely a challenge, I'm sure

Well damn. But they dont belong anyway....

crap, look like doorknob this morning.

AS didnt have much trouble.... Cant be that challenging?

Unless you are being Lead by Herm, then masturbating with a cheesegrader become challenging to say the least.

o just great next year no first downs!

:clap:

We have to hope that Black can play RG and Terry can play RT. I think replacing two starters on the OL with outside talent is the best we can hope for. Any more than that and it will be a disaster.

In this case, you DO change the offense and keep the offensive coordinator.

Why?

Because Mike Solari was never allowed to call HIS offense. This was HERM'S offense all along.

Herm's gameplan was offensive.

There, I did it and it works 100 percent.

I heard this all before. It was called "Getting yardage in chunks" and it was espoused by Marty. It blew chunks. Personally, I don't believe a word from Herm because he's Carl's hand puppet. Much the same way Gunther was.

We are simply moving away from Coryell ball to the straight ahead Martyocre power running/play action game. In effect, going backwards in (football) time.

What we saw in the playoffs is what we'll see in the regular season next year. And there won't be any significant changes in personell. We'll have the same QB, and the same porous OLine.
It'll just be more conservative to protect the aged QB.

Hello Damon Huard, goodbye Trent Green. Green was just a season away from riding the Washington pine, a heartbeat away from going in for Brunell.

Why is it we did so well when the playbook was simplified?

Why didn't we play-fake on first down, the first play of the game, when Indy was expecting us to run? Dungy over Edwards, as usual!

Next time, buy dinner, Herm!

You are nuts if you think they aren't going to put forth a serious effort to upgrade the OL this offseason.

I posted this in another thread, but I think it went under the radar: Does anyone know what the cap hit would be for saying good-bye to Green? Is it so nasty that this isn't even a realistic possibility with Carl looming in the background demanding his money's worth?

The only change from Herm I want to see is him staying the **** away from the offense.

When you say upgrade, I want you to dream big and tell me who the Chiefs would go after.

let's get it out here and then we'll see how 'nuts' I am when the season rolls around.

It appears the most notable player available in free agency is the Cardinals' Leonard Davis, so I don't see a lot of avenues to immediate improvement.

ROFL

Everytime they played up the Herm, Dungy, Lovie relationship on the telecast Saturday all I could think about was the inevitable fact that in close three-person male relationships, two of them are ALWAYS talking about what a dunce the third one is.....I can imagine the conversation and giggles between Dungy and Lovie after this one! I am sure they treat Herm like the drooling cousin chained to a post in the attic.

I'm still upset that he didnt call for more quick throw short crossing route passes, they work almost all of the time. When he finally did with Indy they scored a TD. Then next possesion, the crossing routes were open again but now Green decides to throw deep for int. Perhaps there is some truth to the type of offense your capable of and you have to de-program someone like Green. I have no problem with any offense that catters well to the skills of the players thus enabling the moving of the chains and scoring points.

but Herm says the offense is getting even more Marty-ballish


so the offense that solari did learn under vermeil/saunders is going away even more.

How is exactly did you make the leap to "Herm now is gonna let Solari do what he wants"?