We can't run. We can't throw. We can't execute trick plays. Is it Herm's "style of offense," or is it the players not being able to execute? I'll leave it to you to decide, but I know where your bias is and what you're going to conclude, anyway.

I do trust Herm, although the criticism that he undervalues O-line is a fair one based on the Jets history. The team needs to be good next year or Herm will definitely be gone. And there's no way the team will be good without a much much better O-line. We'll see.

I don't trust Carl and choose to pretend he's not really there. It helps me stay optimistic.

No..he's the protege of an offensive genius..and should probably be more competent in that department than Herm is, but he's not.

Why? Talent. The Jets don't have it, and we sure as hell don't.

Herm was left with this sh*t when he got here. Roaf bailed. Shields bailed. Herm brought in McIntosh..mistake, playing the wrong position, but still a mistake, and they drafted Niswanger and hauled in Terry. I think the only mistake Herm really made was trusting this line to pull through and be average, so our younger guy could get some experience on a decent line. But they couldn't.

C'mon. He had two seasons to replace just about the greatest O-Line ever assembled. And who the hell else was gonna get the ball last year? Huard to Parker? Huard to Kennison? Huard to Webb?

Tony was our only viable weapon, and LJ had to run, and he wanted to, it was a contract year. He may have been over-used, but last year would have been a 5-11 type year if we hadn't run LJ as much, and CP would have imploded long ago.

I think it is a combination of Herm's style, players not executing and definite lack of talent on the O-Line.

2 are fixable 1 (Herm's style) is not.

Chris Horn.

The fact is we can't block water from running up hill and the NFL these days is set up for offenses to rule. So with no blockers we are a bad football team. I don't see Gonzo as wrong and I don't see Herm wrong either(as far as game straegy is conserned). Herm blew it with our kickers and he blew it with our O line evaluation. That's on him and that's why we can't win. The loses are on him.(period)....

PhilFree:arrow:

Players not executing is just sad. How many times this year have you seen recievers drop dead-on passes? A ton.

Kennison's old ass dropped one in the endzone for crying out loud. It's just pathetic. You can't expect much when Huard is taking the snaps and our line are 6-foot tall 300 lb. marshmallows.

I think Herm is trying to be less conservative just to show it doesn't work still. Don't get me wrong, I think he wants to win, but I'm sure he notices the outcries from players and fans alike, and tried to mix it up the past couple of weeks. And it failed miserably both times. You all asked for it, here it is. It's just as good as being conservative.

We don't possess the talent, toughness, or execution on the offensive side of the ball to put up more than 2 touchdowns a game.

0% chance Ty Law is a Chief next year. I would like to cut Surtain as well. I actually think Benny Sapp can play one corner spot, although I know others disagree. We'll bring in a mid-level free agent and draft a guy on day 1.

The over-use of LJ argument is silly, in my opinion. LT had more touches last year if playoffs are included, I believe. And his injury was a blunt force injury and not a repetitive stress injury. The over-use was a result of Michael Bennett getting hurt and there being no one else on the roster who could carry the ball. As you said, Herm inherited a mess. He got Dee Brown who fumbled something like 2 of the 5 carries he was given.

As far as Herm losing the team, I see no evidence for this whatsoever. Losing in an NFL clubhouse is never easy, but I've seen no quotes - even anonymous ones - from players bashing Herm. Do you have information that I don't?

You're absolutely right. This is as much a personnel issue as it is a coaching issue. The combined efforts of Solari and this mediocre offense (and awful offensive line) are what's killing this team. That's why I place more blame on Carl Peterson and his poor personnel decisions. There was NO reason to promote Solari to offensive coordinator and there was NO reason to attempt to rebuild the offensive line with players like Turley. Furthermore, I do not think Herman Edward's blaring mediocrity with the Jets warranted him a job here in Kansas City.

In short, I place more blame on Carl Peterson for the spot we are in now.

I think Sapp is a definite upgrade from what we're putting out their each week. Maybe if you stapled a Bob Evans coupon to the opposing WR's jersey they'd be more apt to stay on them, but they're just getting beat over and over. It's sad. And Pollard has been no gem at safety, he gets absolutely owned.

I'll admit to having an anti-Herm bias. I had it before he came. I tried to keep an open mind. But, every time Herm opens his mouth and talks about his philosophy on offense, it gets more conservative and worse performing. We did this voluntarily last year in the playoff game. The offense had been semi-effective with a mix of running and downfield passing. No one forced us to revert to a 100% sideways passing game then. But we did. And we opened the season that way too. Everything I see on the field week-after-week confirms my initial suspicions about Herm.

To elaborate just a bit more:

I have a preconception about Herm.
He says something (before the first game is played by his team) that reinforces my preconception.
The offensive philosophy on the field matches what Herm said he would do.
The offense performs poorly.
Herm says something else about the offense that further reinforces my preconception.
The offensive philosophy on the field matches what Herm said he would do.
The offense performs even more poorly.

Rinse and repeat.

What would a logical person conclude from this series of events? I conclude that my initial preconception was correct.

I know you're right on Pollard, but I'm still not ready to give up on him. He came out as a junior, and didn't play D last year. So we're seeing baptism by fire for a very young player at a position where every error is glaring.

Herms a bum, he shouldn't be coaching in the NFL period.
Im *****ing done with this team til changes are made.

Oh, I'm not giving up on him yet. He makes big plays sometimes..he's the next Greg Wesley in my opinion, but if he doesn't step it up substantially next preseason or year, I think he could be relegated to the ST squad, with occasional looks as a OLB.

Is somebody going to explain the whole "both barrels" concept? I'm still confused by the thread title.

Discuss.

I have less than zero faith in Carl, he should be fired, but I'm not confident he's going anywhere. And I think this could all blow up and we could be heading for a decade of garbage, but maybe not. You just don't know yet... a lot of it will probably depend on Croyle. The offensive line has to be fixed, quickly, or Herm probably won't make it beyond another year. And that's fine with me. I really am not going on some "real fan" tangent, I have nothing to rub in anyone's face. I don't blame people for not going to the games, I would have no desire to pay NFL ticket prices to see this team right now.

It's not even that, my biggest point would be, and I don't even want to say it... that the one thing I actually agree with Herm about is this team, as built right now, just can't open it up on offense. And that's probably 50% of the complaining on this board. Obviously you can't be run/run/pass totally predictable, but there have been times where we've passed the ball, opened it up, spread formations on 1st down, deep throws downfield, and just gotten clobbered. I just don't feel like arguing for 200 posts about it, there's just no point, which is why I don't even feel like posting. I lost faith in that after the Denver game. That was not a good defense, they gave up 44 points to Martz-ball the week before, so we opened it up, and their defense clobbered us, picked off Huard and Croyle both on deep balls, got sacks, fumbles, just clobbered us. Then the next week we went conservative against Indy and only lost by 3. Not that Herm handled the Indy game 100% correct, but you tell me which way suits this team better. In the ideal world, we'll address the offensive line and be able to open it up more next year. I don't think Herm is a gunslinger but I don't think he'd honestly be much worse than Cowher given similar talent. We'll see, I could be wrong.

Honestly, I think Carl might have beat the fanbase down far too much for Herm to ever have a chance. Which is too bad, but that's not totally Herm's fault. Trying to rebuild a roster with youth for the first time in the 27 year plan, nobody's gonna have the patience for that, fans or players.

Depends on your interpretation I guess (or how much you really hate Herm Edwards). Looks like Gonzalez just called out the offense itself and maybe Solari. He said he doesn't want to play this kind of football and doesn't think Herm wants to either.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by Zouk
0% chance Ty Law is a Chief next year. I would like to cut Surtain as well. I actually think Benny Sapp can play one corner spot, although I know others disagree. We'll bring in a mid-level free agent and draft a guy on day 1.

The over-use of LJ argument is silly, in my opinion. LT had more touches last year if playoffs are included, I believe. And his injury was a blunt force injury and not a repetitive stress injury. The over-use was a result of Michael Bennett getting hurt and there being no one else on the roster who could carry the ball. As you said, Herm inherited a mess. He got Dee Brown who fumbled something like 2 of the 5 carries he was given.

As far as Herm losing the team, I see no evidence for this whatsoever. Losing in an NFL clubhouse is never easy, but I've seen no quotes - even anonymous ones - from players bashing Herm. Do you have information that I don't?
__________________________________________________________

they havent come out yelling aout him yet but only because he is black and they feel they will look bad.

Yepporoloyoyo.

FAX

I like out two young S's they I wouldn't give up on either of them just yet. We're gonna have to get younger a CB and we could still use a truely dominating DT. After that we need to fix our O line with FA's and there's some good ones who'll be available. There will be plenty of $$bucks availble this year so I don't see this as a long term rebuilding process. Hell the NFL isn't a long term game these days so I expect a big improvement in '08.

PhilFree:arrow:

It just sucks that our team is actually making a valid attempt to get younger all around, and some people can't appreciate that.

I love the fact that we have the most productive rookie WR in the league, and our defense if full of faces 30 years or younger. It's just gonna be a while before we get a competent young group of guys who can compete week in and week out.

If nothing else, you've got to applaud Herm for bringing in a slew of solid young guys to build a foundation upon. Even if he isn't the coach who sees that youth prosper.

take it sentence by sentence
 

“I’m tired of it and don’t want to play this style of football,” Chiefs tight end Tony Gonzalez said.

“It’s not what I’m into.

I don’t think Herm (Edwards) wants to.

We want to win. Let’s get it over with.

I don’t want to keep the game close until the second half because we’re a second-half team.

That’s bull.

Let’s just go out there and win a football game.



“Let’s get rid of that stress.

I’m tired of it.

I’m sitting on the sideline thinking,

‘Here we go again.’

You can’t help but let those thoughts creep into your mind.”

You are happy that they are young and will be here awhile?
god damn it this team is 4-8 i don't want them here along time, all this says it that were young and these bums are here to stay!
holy shit herm as got to go, Law is over the hill
I cannot stand another fourth and 4 with a 2 yard pass im gonna kill be myself. Solari should move to IRAQ and Herm can be his driver!!!

You are an I D 10 T...!

When our team was old and everyone was saying we needed to get younger we were winning now we are the turd of the NFL
god damn the Raiders are better than us!!

It's the decreased production, not just the injury. Football Outsiders ran several articles on this last year predicting a significant fall off in production this year. The correlation between carries in season n and decreased produciton in season n+1 is very strong. Carries correlate more strongly with decrease in production that "touches" which include pass receptions. The typical pounding on a pass reception is less than a typical running play. LT's production has been off this year too, although not as sharply as LJ's.

Mostly reading between the lines. There can be no doubt that the intensity on the field has been less since the Indy game. I haven't had the sense that we were going to win any of the games the last few weeks. The players aren't exerting as much effort.

With Herm as the coach, can you blame them? His bad play calling and lack of wanting to reach the end zone passes off to them team.

Play to win, yeah right.

Football fans in Maryland must lack patience and intelligence.

I'm beginning to understand why you have less than 200 posts in 5 years.

We all get that we suck..but it's called re-building. A complete overhaul is necessary and that requires playing younger, mistake-prone players.
We might be trash for this year..and possibly the next, but the Raiders are gonna be trash for another decade at least.

Well I have doubt. I just don't see it. It's a hard thing to argue because I can't point to anything tangible, but I just really think you're wrong.

I want to hear more from Brian Waters and other veterans on this team.

Until Edwards is gone...

LJ quit in the playoff game before his payday
He was right -what's the point
"The other team aren't dumb dumbs"

I don't see Gonzo opening up on Herm. Just venting and stating the obvious. Nobody's very happy right now. But Herm was hired as Head Coach and the Head Coach takes the heat when things suck. And, things suck. A lot.

The oline is where the bleeding is worse. I think it's interesting that Herm decided at some point that these guys were serviceable. Doubly interesting is the fact that a good HC along with a good OC can compensate for a marginal oline through the use of plays that maximize their abilities while minimizing the potential for mistakes.

But no. We can't do that. Instead, we scale back the offensive game plan to such a predictable level that enemy defenses know what we're going to run before the ball is snapped. We scale back the playbook to 3 plays. We start a quarterback whose skills are so limited, the enemy only has to watch 15 minutes of tape on the guy to understand his tendencies.

And we do this game after game. Over and over. Until finally, everyone can see what we really are. Garbage. And, what does Herm do? Does he take responsibility? Does he institute changes early enough to make a legitimate effort to save the season? Does he declare "rebuild" and bring in the young players? No. He does none of that.

He blames the players - knowing full well that there will be people who pull out the "coaches don't catch passes" card. He blames the OC for being new on the job - knowing full well that he chose him for the position. And, he blames the team for "not making plays in the fourth quarter" - knowing full well that they are incapable of recovering from a deficit under his system.

I wish I could believe in Herm's plan. Maybe someday he'll spell it out so I can believe. Until then, it looks like he's making it up as he goes along and covering his ass along the way.

FAX

There is a middle ground between the Indy game and going in a spread formation every down.

Don't:
Talk in the press how 21 points is a lot of points, talk about circuis offense, etc.
Make all of your pass plays less than 5 yards.
Think that you have to use all 3 downs to get a first down.
Think that 1st and 15 is an impossible obstacle.
Consider that the purpose of the offese is to rest a defense.
Take your foot off the offensive accelerator when you enter FG range.
Make it tougher on your rookie QB by castrating the offense.
Run pass patterns where EVERYONE turns and faces the QB after going 5 yards downfield.
Run the same play from the same formation more than twice in a game.

Do:
Use first down and 2nd and 6 or less to throw intermediate routes of 12 to 20 yards. The pass rush is less on these downs.
Make the defense defend the whole field. Even if it is a decoy reciever, spread the defenders out.
Expect and trust your players to do their job. If you don't they will meet your bad expectation every time.
Expect your defense to make mistakes.
Have the intention and well-crafted plans to score TDs in the redzone.
Find some weakness in the defensive opponent and game plan to exploit it. If there is a weak point in thier line, send 3 blockers to that point of attack.

2 is a wake up call but wait until he opens all three!

:bravo: Great Post!!!!!!!!!!!

I just really didn't see the scaled back offense today. I saw loads of motion, empty backfields, play actions on all downs, Jared Allen as a TE, an attempt at a reverse pass, etc.

what the hell is bowe doing today. Was he not getting seperation?

Has the defense gone from perennial number 32 to number 9 in the NFL?

Yes.

Do I think that the Chiefs will address their offensive line woes in the off-season?

Yes.

The Chiefs should target Max Starks, Ryan Lilja and do their best to draft a top tier left tackle, left guard, center and right tackle (Waters is due to breakdown at any moment).

The AFC West is obviously in transition as a whole and San Diego's only winning because the Raiders, Chiefs and Broncos are experiencing a youth movement.

I seriously think that the AFC West is up for grabs next year and IF the Chiefs make the right personnel moves, they'll be in the hunt for the divisional title next December.

Two words: Insanity and stupidity

This is what i have noticed They start off the games pretty well. Then when the Defense see's the offense isnt going to do a damn thing again. They lose focus.

Herm as someone said puts self doubt in the offense. This team is just bad. Why oh why do Herman Edwards football teams suffer from tons of injuries.



I know why the QB's do. His ****ed up play calling. Then he puts his QB's in obvious passing situations and its like hitting a baseball off a tee.

This comment was directed to the entire offensive coaching staff

He doesn't shop for the groceries, he just cooks them. This is Carl's line. This is Carl's team. The last 2 drafts are the only places Herm has had any say what so ever.

Look, I said before this year and still to this day believe the Chiefs are a largely untalented team that no coaching will overcome. The problem is we have the wrong people leading this "rebuilding".

1. We have a coach who I believe if he had New Englands offensive talent we'd average no more than 20 a game and he'd be repeatedly screaming at the QB for changing plays and scoring to fast...he has actually done this before in NY.

2. We have a GM who at his heart doesn't want to rebuild. Signing Edwards, LJ moves like that are not rebuilding moves. It's like I call it, halfass rebuilding.

The Chiefs can be ready to compete probably in 3-4 years if it's done right, I just have no trust in the team to do it right.

Also anyone who points out the defense is #9..answer these questions...how many holes does it still have..answer a lot due to shittyness and age...how many times has it folded in 2nd halfs...at home...

The defense is further a long than the offense but it is nowhere close to being a finished product either, this team just by in large lacks talent but it also has an incompetent coaching staff fueled by a GM who will almost undoubtedly go out and sign FA's to win 8 games when in reality they shouldn't heavily play the market this year..

If the Chiefs finish 4-12.....they can draft 2 starting OT's.....a guard in the 4th and probably a corner in the 3rd.......I'd probably try to sign Bryant Johnson so Kennison and Parker are both gone...but there is no need to spend 100 million dollars in FA this year when they can get younger players in the draft to do the same thing.

IMO, the Defense is close to being a finished product. They have been pretty damned good all year considering how piss poor our Defense is.

There's to much age to be close to being finished consider this.....both corners will need to be replaced probably after this year..MLB and 1 OLB need to be replaced.....and we still need a DT.

You can play with older players. **** look at New England they are pretty good, and they got some old folks there, but they have good players in key areas.

Vrabel is old, Bruschi is old. Seau is old, Harrison is old. thats some good age right there.

Those old guys are still productive...it also doesn't hurt to stand behind the best Dline in the league that has a ton of 1st round picks on it.

We can do that too if we get a Line comparable to NE's.

Thats what the Chiefs are working on. To get the Dline to be very good. Thats why they drafted 2 young guys this year. WE all know it all starts up front. Donnie imo is just as good as any of NE's LB'ers right now. We serously need corners though. I do like Brackenridge though. I think he's going to be a starter very soon.

This defense is close. Not quite there, but its damned close.

Completely calling out Mike Solari saying he's a stress I love it.

Remember Guntha's run, run, run, then pass offense? The one that Elvis threw for 3,000 and 4,000 yards in? Gunther may have drafted like shit but he got more out of his shitty drafts than Herm has gotten out of his good drafts.
Not at all saying Gunther should have stayed or should return, just comparing them.

You've got it backwards. You run a complicated offense when you don't have the personnel to dominate -- which applies to every team in the league with the possible exception of New England.

I agree, and it was only one barrel.

Absolutely.

I can't believe what it has become.

Since Herm arrived?

“I’m tired of it and don’t want to play this style of football,” Chiefs tight end Tony Gonzalez said. “It’s not what I’m into. I don’t think Herm (Edwards) wants to. We want to win. Let’s get it over with.

Maybe I'm not seeeing how he called Herm out. He said,"It's not what I'm into. I don't think Herm wants to." :hmmm:

Let's hope not. Our Defense BLOWS against the run. It's been that way all year. Nap Harris is no better than Mitchell was. This defense folds late in games the same way DV's did. Now, that might be becaise the offense is the worst in football and the defense is on the field for so long, but still, though improved, this defeense is nothing to hang your hat on.

and to think Herm will stay employed. Gunther was gone after 2 seasons. His record was .500. Herm's......TBD.

While he didnt come right out & say "I'm sick to death of Herms style", he might as well have.

He took a direct swipe at Herms stated philosophy, which is to keep it close until the second half & hang on tight for the win.

But to be fair to Herm & Solari, i totally agree with those who've said that we DID try to open it up today...spread, tricks, 4th&whatever, 1st down passing etc.

But the line & Huard werent up to the task, to me THAT is the story behind this loss.

I agree. However, Herm KNEW what we had in the OL and QB BEFORE the season. He was Okay with it. He instructed us to "dummy-down the offense". You can't just turn it on when you want if you've been running things a certain way for so long. We CHOSE this path. Herm's been here long enough to be held accountable for part of the mess. It's not all DV's fault. Why some give him a free pass is beyond me. Anyway, that's just my opinion.

[QUOTE=scott free]While he didnt come right out & say "I'm sick to death of Herms style", he might as well have.

But to be fair to Herm & Solari, i totally agree with those who've said that we DID try to open it up today...spread, tricks, 4th&whatever, 1st
down passing etc.
]


Horrid locked on to TG did not look at another player ,so I will not give Solari or Herm any credit other then being bad game mangers

Tony regrets resigning every day....he career will end playing Herm ball.

The whole philosophy of "playing to maybe get lucky in the 4th quarter" is outmoded...it is stupid and cowardly. It is also the essence of Herm Edwards.

You can't play to "stay close." You have to play to win...from the very first snap.

But Tony knows, we never have a chance because our coach gives up before the game even starts. He's a coward and a loser.

The War is already won before the battle is ever fought with Herm Edwards... /Bill Belichek

Wait so the board sucks now because people don't like Herm or how the organization is doing things?

Yep, unless we follow Herm blindly and drink Carls Red Koo-Aid, we are not fans.

Maybe they should move over to WPI and post....

See shit like that pisses me off. If you weren't a fan you wouldn't care at all....honestly part of being a fan is to show your displeasure when the organization does stupid things.

If everyone just sat back and swallowed it..well you get things like Carl for 19 years and that makes you an enabler..so how's that make them "better fans"?

I'm sick of Tony's post game whining. When the season ended last year he made a comment about how tiring it was to continually lose and he wasn't sure where he would end up playing. Then Carl offers to make him the highest paid TE in the game (again) and he's happy to sign on the dotted line. At the time he signed his extension he knew damn well the direction the team was headed and the philosophy of the head coach. He could have tried to insist on some changes, etc., but he was happy with the cash.

That's where I'm sitting. There was a lot of rebuilding to be done after last year and it seems we started defense first. I think the FO really underestimated the rate of decline on our line. We were respectable last year and it seems the conventional wisdom was that if we could get respectable play out of Shields' replacement we'd be respectable.

No.

Huard had a better line last year and looked better. So did LJ for that matter.

We have more playmakers this year (Bowe, Gonzo, Smith, LJ) than last year but we can't string together long drives because we can't get consistent play out of the line.

It'll get worse before it gets better...cdcox perfectly explained why.

I don't think last year has anything to do with it. There wasn't much open for him to run through and he was tentative. He wasn't use to getting the ball and seeing squat open up. He changed the way he ran and started looking like Donnel Bennet - straight up the center's but for 2 or three yards.

Smith is a smaller back and just seems to run with that "squirmy" style. Marcus ran that way as well. You didn't really see any hole there but it was just big enough to squeeze through.

Me personally I like that type of back better then the smash mouth football run up the middle and destroy both lines type.

I wonder if Gonzo will threaten to retire next year if he doesn't think that we do enough in the offseason.

“We have to play a certain way. We try to do that to protect the quarterback and make sure we can throw the ball. You have all of these fancy ideas there at the end and there are certain things we’re stuck with because of how we have to play."

The way we are playing has not protected the quarterback. I am, however, very curious what Herm would like to do if he had the players. Someone should ask him.

Just go look at the offensive stats he had with the Jets......he had offensive talent most years he was there.

I'd say just look at what the Jets best offensive year was there...

BRAVO!

Great post.

Yep.

On a related note, when was the last time a receiver didn't have to jump to catch one of Damon's passes?

or catch one on the bounce..........

Just to save me the trouble of looking it all up, would anyone who knows like to clue me in? What was the Jets offense like under Herm?

Average at best.

Best yards ranking - 12
Best points ranking - 15

They were ranked 21st or worse in total yardage 4 out of 5 years.