1. Imagine our linebacking core right now without DJ. Nap Harris hasn't looked great & is hurt, his plausible replacement Thomas hasn't proven anything yet, Edwards is aging and down with a hammy. Take DJ out of the LB equation and IMO they go from a C rating to an F.

2. Rodgers hasn't proven anything yet. The people that know him best, the Packers coaches and front office, spent a 2nd round pick on Brohm. Little question mark there.

3. Gunther is not god to me, but I'd trust him to develop a linebacker before I would've trusted Solari and Herm to develop a QB.

4. Rodgers would've probably missed at least training camp and possibly preseason in a hold-out, as King Carl would've struggled to pony up the money for a high draft pick QB. This would've put AR farther behind in his development if he was with KC instead of GB, couple that missed time with a Herm and Solari led development, and you might have the chemistry for a Ryan Leaf experience.

5. If AR proves to be injury prone to even the slightest degree, you absolutely don't want him behind OUR O-line.

6. You really have to give DJ through this year to prove himself one way or the other. Hopefully he'll spend more time on the sideline watching our offense play and catching his breath, so we can see how he produces when he's not totally spent from spending 85% of the 60 minute game on the field.

God, this is ****ing lame. Derrick Johnson has already proven himself. He's worthy of a long-term contract.

Nobody is saying DJ wasnt a good pick and isnt a good player. He is.

Its all about value. Personally, id rather have a young franchise QB than a solid outside linebacker. Its obviously a higher impact position.

I agree, alot guys on this board seem to want to see him as a future HOF guy and a perenial pro bowler. I'm just sayin give him this year before writing him off as just above average, I think he could be that guy.

sink or swim

Rodgers isn't a "young franchise QB." He's a three-year backup, picked later in the first-round, with a terrible history surrounding the guy who coached him.

This is one of the worst threads on the Planet in a while. F**king laughable.

Oh, and Keith Rivers isn't even close to as good as DJ.

Your right. I probably should have worded the question differently.

"In the draft, Do you value a potential Franchise QB higher or a solid outside linebacker?"

Anyhow, this will be a fun thread to bump at the end of the year.

Pointless question. Everyone would take a "potential franchise QB" over a "solid LB." Just like everyone would take a stud LB over a nothing QB.

Why? DJ was the right pick without any question whatsoever. Even IF Rodgers was to do well and DJ didn't breakout, it's a complete non-question.

time to fish or cut bait

Dude please, you mean a potential bust or a solid OLB

come on man - with all due respsect, this is seriously, stupid.

Oh, so if a LB is taken 15 he better grow to be the very best in the league. all others are failed picks. gotcha..

:rolleyes:

Typical Mecca...

LOL, you guys don't see the value in picks, LB is a devalued position unless the guy is a pass rusher. When you use pick 15 on a non pass rusher he has to be very very good to say he was worth the pick.

Keith Rivers is going to have to be a multi time pro bowler and defensive captain for his pick to be worth it.

And we'll see on that, Rivers was much better coached in college and is alot more polished entering the league than DJ was. Rivers is the best cover LB to come out in years...DJ had a faster 40, physical talent wise they compare, Rivers is more polished and ready because of the high level of coaching he received in college though. His results should come faster...I also think Rivers brings better intangibles.

And that's not saying Derrick Johnson is a shitty player because he's not, it's a relation on the value of position to pick.

Now is as good a time as any for a Bump!!

Rodgers was:

18-22, 193 yds
1 TD
3 Rush, 5 yds, 1 TD a few nights ago.

I missed this thread the first time.

My answer? Absolutely.

Regardless of whether or not Rodgers has success or fails.

The Chiefs franchise has an AWFUL history of passing on franchise QB's.

Need we name them?

Not really. At least not in the Peterson era. We always drafted too high. Rodgers was the only 1st rounder that Carl passed on that might turn out to be something. Most never did anything.

For some reason I think our fan base has devalued that position to an extent, or become overly comfortable in the "lets pick up a vet" mindset.

In some ways that's why I think so many people think Croyle will be fine and give it no 2nd thought the fan base really hasn't seen a QB fail miserably in such a long period of time.

I think your 100% right. Chiefs fans despise CP on one hand, yet openly crave the 7-10 win drug he has fed in our veins for 20 years.

JFC, Man.

Montana? Deberg? Marino? Ken O'Brien? Drew Brees? Matt Hasselbeck? Tom Brady? David Garrard? Mark Brunell? ****, even Aaron Brooks?

The track record is HORRENDOUS.

Need I go on?

No offense, Bro, jfc!!!!!

I was only talking about first round guys. I cant hold it against the Chiefs too much for passing on guys like Hasselback, Brady, Garrard, etc....every team in the NFL passed on those guys.

But overall your right. Developing QB's is this franchise's weak point and IMO the #1 reason we havent been back to the Super Bowl in forever.

Our team in all honesty has never even tried to develop a QB..and now when they do it isn't a guy with the great pedigree or a "can't miss".

The Chiefs went from no risk to extremely risky...

The fan base devalued it because the Chiefs devalued it.

Carl & Marty took a team that had only been to the playoffs once in 15 prior seasons to the playoffs in year two. They continued that streak until 1998 and in doing so, went through 8 starting veteran quarterbacks.

DeBerg, Pelluer, Kreig, Montana, Bono, Gannon and Grbac (and Gannon, again).

They "proved" to the Kansas City media, city and fans that QB's were disposable. It was all about defense (which they had) and running back (which they didn't have). The QB position was interchangeable.

Hence, 2008.

And that approach will get you what it got them, playoff losses.

Exactly.

And that continued this decade with Trent Green.

But Chiefs fans, for the most part, just want to be a "part of it".

Carl Peterson knows this fanbase...

Yea it's obvious hell it's rampant on this board how many times did we see posts like "atleast we aren't Arizona" or something like that?

If you aren't good enough to win the whole thing you lost just the same.

The problem is that Carl Peterson has somehow penetrated the fabric of Kansas City.

When the Chiefs lose on any given Sunday, the entire city mourns.

When they win, everybody's happy and looks forward to next weekend!!!

It wasn't like that before his arrival. Apathy was everywhere an no one cared. No "water cooler talk", no sports radio and certainly no national media coverage.

So in most people's minds, just getting to the playoffs was enough.

And it's still that way.

That kind of goes in line with a theory I have about numerous people being pissed off about rebuilding and would have rather just gone with the vet general Chiefs approach. I think like you said a good number of fans are happy to just be a part...but namely win 7 or 8 home games because it's a party day to drink beer all day and basically party it up.

Now with this approach they have taken that away, there will be no good time party every weekend and I think some fans who liked that part of the game and wanted things to stay like they were aren't happy about it.

That doesn't even count the people who fear what the 80s were so they're just happy to take their 7-9 wins.

I just realized who Brodie Croyle is.

Hes former Brown QB Charlie Frye. A mid round talent guy beind sold as a QBoTF for a few years, but is basically just filling the slot until something better comes along.

No to Rodgers ... DJ is decent ...

The problem with this debate is that it takes coaching out of the equation.

When I look at DJ, I see a guy who, until this year, was playing out of position.

When I look at this defense, I see a group that is coordinated by a guy who is a terrible talent evaluator that seems to always find a way to put players in position to to miss plays.

If DJ had been drafted by the Tampa Bay Bucs, Monte Kiffen would have found a way to put DJ in position to succeed, to get the most out of his talent.

Jimmy Wilkerson is having an outstanding preseason right now for the Bucs, and because Kiffen knows what he's doing, I fully expect him to play at much that same level into the regular season.

I've always argued that ****her did more to contain DT than any offense ever did.
His sack numbers didn't really decrease, but his overall pressure wasn't as consistent, and his overall tackle numbers did decrease rather substantially.

Those a just a couple of examples.

But that is the kind of thing that ****her has done consistently.

Right now, I'm waiting to see what Chan does in the regualr season to really get a feel for Croyle's development, because other than that first drive in the first game, the Chiefs haven't really opened up the playbook, except for a couple of plays.

Rodgers is having a better Week 1 than DJ so far...

Damn.

Now is as good as time as any for a BUMP!!

Hell no, this board hates QBs not named Elway. If we just keep drafting olinemen, eventually we'll find a combination that makes Croyle look average. yeah, that's the ticket.....

I've never seen the most important position the field get devalued like it does here.

No because we would not have the qB coach to teach him.. nor the coaches that would allow him to succeed..

True that.

Look at the Vikes, if they had a more accurate QB, they might be a more TRUE Super Bowl threat.

Derrick Johnson is one of the best 4-3 OLBs in football. He's far superior to Aaron Rodgers as a football player.

The first statement is true. The second statement is false. The Chiefs would be in a much better position right now. Are you watching Rodgers? He looks great tonight against one of the league's best defenses.

Minnesota does not have one of the league's best defenses. Their pass defense has been awful for years. Everyone assumed that Allen would fix it and so far he hasn't.

Rodgers has looked good and I'd probably rather have him than DJ, but one decent game against a poor pass defense doesn't mean all that much.

Heh. Allen was virtually non-existent against the Packers...I guess we might have gotten the better part of that deal after all...

Even though D. Johnson has been a dissappointment so far I would say no to Rodgers. The Queeefs would of been forced to throw him into the fire too soon and would of ruined his developement.

Bring in the savy vet! Lets play for 9-7 and hope that we can make some noise in the playoffs!

Looked pretty darn good last night.

I don't think I've ever said that.....go tell one of the Huard people that one.

Bump....what the heck!

Bump....

DJ sure looked good on that run defense today huh??

Rodger is 16/19 for GB today...

Of course under Herm he'd probably just break all his bones.

Seen this thread a number of times, but I've put off commenting.

I like DJ, but if I could have Aaron Rogers the way he's playing, and knowing how badly we could use a QB like him right now, I might be inclined to take him instead of DJ.

However, who's to say had we taken Rogers that he'd be the QB he is today? Would he have gotten the coaching he needed to develope here? Would he have sit under and learn from one of the better QBs to ever play the game in KC? Would he have the OL and coaching staff here to allow him to play like he does in GB? I have to anser no to all those questions.

Hindsight is easy, but we have to remember the variables that influence a players ability. I don't think Aaron Rogers would be the QB he is today if we had drafted him instead of GB.


We have a good LB in DJ. With Aaron Rogers, we'd probably just have another QB we have already given up on.

i think this coaching could kill any QB

DJ's average at best.

This mentality towards drafting QB's by both the Chiefs organization, their fans and the city is the main reason why the Chiefs haven't won a ****ing thing in 37 years.

The Chiefs should be drafting a QB every year or at least, every other year. Instead, they've drafted four first day QB's in 25 years.

That's why they suck and will continue to suck.

The point that seems to continually get missed is the VERY QUESTION in the thread title.

If it was "Who is a better player?" or "Who would you rather have right now?", there would be NO discussion.

Ah, I found the thread...






Deberg, I owe you an apology.

I've always thought you were certifiably insane for asking if we ****ed up by taking DJ and passing on Aaron Rodgers - even though I never said so in this thread.

But brother, I've seen the light.

I'm now on your side.

Please accept this apology, and to answer the question - yes, we ****ed up passing on Rodgers.

DJ has been an epic disappointment for the 15th overall pick.

Disagree.

I think DJ's average at worst. He has enormous upside but our terrible coaching is holding him back. His biggest problem by far is that he can't tackle. In 5 years, every one of Gun's defenses have sucked, sucked, sucked at tackling.

We've never seen what he can do without Gun. I'd love to see what he can do without a Gun. DJ is actually a pretty outstanding coverage LB and I'm sick of Gun's LBs constantly overpursuing plays. Maybe I'm naive, but I think a different coordinator could get a lot more out of a talented player like DJ.

When a guy has been in the league 4+ years, he is what he is there should be no talk of upside anymore.

Only in hindsight.

In hindsight, we ****ed up by not trading for the No. 1 pick and taking Matt Ryan.

(BTW, Rodgers would be nowhere near as good as he is now on that team after having THREE ****ING YEARS to learn.)

Uh, no, we didn't "**** up" by not trading away every good pick we owned for Matt Ryan.

Because that's what it would have took, I've posted the pick values on here many times.

Our 1st, our 2nd and 2 of our 3rds to move up high enough to draft Ryan.

And that's just to move to #2. You're advocating moving up to #1?

Bump.

Thoughts??

Should the Chiefs have drafted Dan Marino over Blackledge? Would of should of could of.

heh

We could cherry pick like this about every draft. Still, it's interesting to see so many rush to defend an average LB when comparing him to a very capable, promising young QB.

KC fans hates them some QB's.

As I type this, what a beautiful deep ball from Rogers. But, what am I saying, Thigpen has this thing on lock. In similar conditions yesterday, his throws looked the same. Tight. Zip.

Derrick Johnson is rated 90 in Madden. He's far from a bust.

I thought Rodgers was a steal at the bottom of the first but I was a fan of his since I played football for the same JC he did. But who knows what he would be like if he had to play for KC for the last 2 seasons rather than learn the ropes in Green Bay. It sure worked out better for Rodgers that he ended up in Green Bay.

Not to mention Jim Kelly...thanks for bringing it up :cuss:

It was until I figured that out, thats when I realized how much of an effect Carl and Marty really had on this fanbase...

I never seen people want to win a Superbowl so bad, but want to do it running for 3 yards and a puff of smoke, while trying to play defense...

We're a well trained bunch. We've been taught to be afraid, and, like the spineless dogs that we are, we're scared shitless.

Ryan Leaf!!! Oh noes111 Turnovers1111 Money1111 Clark's money(?)11111 Oh noes1111

You know what I think it is. I'm resolved, after being a huge gun supporter, to thinking our coaches on d are the problem. I mean in dv's tenor you could easily say it was personnel because we seemed to pick a lot of players nobody knew anything about. (yes I knew dj was during vermeils tenure but it was supposedly a no brainer) Despite getting good talent acknowledged league wide they all seem to bust.

We need a new fresh blow up so I now am on the official get rid of all the fuggers band wagon.

Now as far as the OP, I think they'd of equally bust.

Well hell, really we should have not traded our first rounder for Trent Green and instead should have traded down and picked up Drew Brees near the end of the first round in 2001...

Baby Lee hax0rz ur account posting ur shitz

Bullshit. Vermeil was a fine singer. A veritable Domingo.

LOL, I meant to say tenure. That being said, vermeil was always too choked up to carry a tune.

Now Dorsey too.

These players still have that talent. They just need to be coached, and used properly. Hopefully, that change is coming.

Our young corners have done well, for the most part. (with maybe the worst pass rush in history)... I wonder if that might be because Herm was a D-back, and it's just about the one thing he does know how to do.

The more you yell, the more your lineman learn. The louder you yell, the more they absorb it. The more you slap their hands, the better their footwork becomes.

In with the quick edit.... :D

you had coners didn't you?

please tell me I'm not crazy

Yeah, yeah... I did.

If you hadn't taken the time for the pic, you'd have had me.

what can I see, I'm nothing if not thorough

D.J. is talented, and that's about it. He doesn't take on blockers. He doesn't tackle well. He doesn't rush the QB well. and how many INTs does the great coverage LB have? Not to mention he constantly over pursues, and if he doesn't take himself out of the play, he gets swept out of th play. Coaching has a whole hell of a lot to do with it, but this is more of your homeristic coddling..

IMO, it all boils down to coaching. These guys are all NFL caliber athletes (for the most part) and I'm convinced that if put on another squad, DJ would be a total beast. We've seen flashes here and there, but nothing is sticking. This is directly attributable to a coaches (Gun) lack of ability to get the best out of his players, whether it be their ability or the scheme...it's the fuggin' coaching.

...fire 'em all. Start over. We've got good athletes, and I'd bet the turn around would be very quick if we could just coach them better. I mean, even by next season's end. With good coaching, we could be a playoff team next year. Especially in this weak ass division.

One final bump. These were Rodgers final numbers this year:


Thoughts?


Games 16
Qb Rating 93.8
Comps 341
Attempts 536
Completion % 63.6
Yards 4038
Yds/game 252.4
Y/A 7.5
TD's 28
INT's 13

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/7200

Johnson has been a massive failure. Guys in their 4th seasons should not be moving around like a street free agent.

Give me Rodgers by a mile.

Hindsight, Rodgers for sure, who ****ing new DJ wouldn't be an impact here...only the chiefs