I love the fact that the entire rebuttal of all you ballwashers has been to invent a narrative that was not said and then use that as what I, and others, have said instead of what was really said.

But that tends to happen when you and try to pass off boiled water as lobster bisque.

I don't have a rebuttal, so I'll just invent something that I want them to say so I don't sound like a clueless automaton*


*It should be noted that I'm giving you credit for hypothetically using words such as automaton that you probably don't know, since if someone put a bullet through your brain the copper jacket would have been the first original item to pass through in the entirety of your lifespan***


***Providing it wasn't recycled.

If, in two years, we're still wallowing in this mire, I'll join you guys in your wacky madness. Heck, I'll even be the guy who marches out front carrying the big baton thing and walking while tilted backwards and wearing a big, giant, fluffy hat. Ef' 'Em will be my watchwords and Destruction my middle name.

Until then, I shall look forward to the ways and means whereby Pioli and company figure out how to fix this damn thing and implement their ideas. Although these arguments are rife with passion, I'm unconvinced that this, particular front office is simply a gang of incompetent stooges with an all-encompassing will to lose. Been there. Done that.

FAX

That doesn't make sense. They have been using changing the culture since the very first day they started. It is not like they started using it last week.

Let me help.

You think Haley is the right guy? After watching his progress with this team?
His play calling? The teams lack of progress? Seriously?

You think Cassel is the guy, after making us all pine for Thigpen or Huard?

Sometimes it is better to just cut bait, once you realize you have a stinkfish on the line.

Cut your losses and move on. I am still holding hope for Pioli, but right now if it were up to me, Cassel and Haley would both be moving on.

Huh? I'm not talking about just signing about a few old guys from free agency.

I'm talking about the draft. I'm talking about the RIGHT coaching hires instead of the wrong ones (Nolan v. Pendergast).

Do you really think Pioli and Haley were comfortable ranking in the bottom 5 on offense and defense this year? Do you think they are shrugging their shoulders as you are now?

BULLCRAP.

The Broncos were an 8-8 team competing for the west division crown last year.

The Chiefs won 2 games.

One of those things is not like the other.

The Chiefs and Broncos had comparable defenses, though.

One team did something about it. The other team tried, and failed. Miserably.

Don't stick your head in the sand.

Nobody is saying that.

Simply stating that it's too early to throw in the towel, and declare Pioli, BB's bitch, and an imminent failure. It makes you look slightly like a panicky over-reacting nancy. Just kidding dude.

I think you're smart Hamas. No, I know you're smart. But I also think you make up your mind about people, and it skews you overall outlook. If Pioli doesn't attack this roster with diligence this off-season, then i will be right there with you, but I think with the late hirings, and such, he wanted to see it all himself, and also let his coach find out whether they were really this bad, because, I'm sure they think Herm is a dumbshit.

:clap::clap: I'm not sure what was expected by some.

I bet they're not a whole lot more surprised than I am. I bet they're not any happier about it than I am either. They probably hate losing even more than I do. And I hate losing in a way I doubt you can possibly even understand.

But, on the other hand, I do have the ability to grasp reality.

Which is a skill that generally comes sometime after you move out of your mom's house.

Actually he just pwned you.

8-8 does not translate to a 2-14 team. Hell we need 6 new starters to get to 8-8.

You know that's not true.

What the ****.

You basically believe Pioli and Haley resigned themselves to being a bottom 5 offense and defense before the year?

Do you not realize how ludicrous that sounds?

I think it's ****ing bullshit. Why fire Chan Gailey if you're gonna suck anyway? What would be the point?

Bullshit, keg. Bullshit.

Forget the overall team record and look at the defenses.

The Chiefs and Broncos needed the SAME overhaul on defense...one team got it done.

The Broncos had more talent on D than we did.

The only position we come close to competing with them at is CB.

It's not like Dumerville, Williams, Woodyard, and Bailey weren't there last year, and Dumerville makes that whole D better.

Comparable defenses?

Comparable statistically but not in terms of the players on the field. They've had more talent on that side of the ball than we have for years now, they've just consistently underachieved.

Whereas the Chiefs have been about as good as the players they run out there since, oh, about 1998. Fortunately they've begun adding core pieces to build around, pieces which you're of course writing off after their 1st or 2nd years in the league.

If I believed that, I probably would have said it.

But go ahead, keep making stuff up.

I don't think there's an ENORMOUS talent gap between them and Hali, DJ, Demorrio Williams and Brandon Flowers.

If the Chiefs had made the same moves the Broncos made on defense they would be SIGNIFICANTLY better. No one was looking for a top 10 D in KC this year. Top 20 would have been nice.

Cred Alert!!! Cred Alert!!!

FAX

Do you not realize how ludicrous that sounds?

If you don't believe they resigned themselves to sucking then you clearly believe they made moves with an eye towards improving the team.

So which one is it?

It's not ludicrous at all.

Dumervil had five sacks last season.

True.

However, it comes back to talent evaluation.

Denver acquired 6 new defensive starters and 1 rotational player via FA, and hit on every ****ing one of them. Batting 1.000. 3 new offensive starters, hitting on each. Still batting 1.000.

Shy of Chambers and Succop, not one acquisition of ours, offensively or defensively has been a clear upgrade over their 2008 counterparts. Some have been a push, some have been downgrades. We brought in over 30 players.

One team is batting 1.000, and the other is batting .066.

It has served us well, this myth of Pioli...

They turned over a 3rd of the roster and got no improvement, everyone they brought in is just as bad if not worse than the guy they replaced.

That's real confidence inspiring.

Xanders+McDaniel> Pioli+Haley.

you are ****ing stoopid.

This thread tells me one thing, some people want the Chiefs to be good so badly they'll overlook things staring them right in the face just because he's not Carl.

Sadly, yes.

Correct. And it's bullshit, no matter who says it or when.

I believe they wanted to take a hard look at the players on the roster, to ascertain specifically who fits and who doesn't, because they more players that are here who work, the better it is.

I believe that's true on both sides of the ball.

I also believe that every move they've made was made with an eye towards improving the team, including the moves made during the season.

I also believe that what this team is missing is core talent, real superstars that winning teams are built around, and that's not something you can generally find floating around in free agency. Which is why the draft is so very important.

(Which is also what I think differentiates a team like Denver from us. They're at the point - and have been for several years - where they can bring in players to round out an already talented roster. Whereas the Chiefs are starting from the bottom - and have been for several years.)

Or because some people know it takes more then 1 year to build a competitive team. Weren't you the one railing aginst people calling them true fans cuz they wanted to go 8-8 or 9-7 this year by signing players?

Dude what have they done to start building a core? Where is the starting point?

There's nothing, we got a ****ing 5 tech DE in the top 5 and a shit ass QB a long with a coach that could probably be out coached on gameday by a madden player.

Man I'm really ****ing impressed with this "progress"

So, they failed?

This team hasn't been improved at all by Pioli's moves, 99% of the guys they brought in are either the same or worse than the guy they replaced and in most cases older.

Hell any of the few core players we have are Herm guys, the first year is where you start building a foundation. If this is a foundation Scott Pioli must be homeless.

FFS....it's not like everyone is expecting them to rebuild everything in 1 year. I fully expect that if they do things correctly...it's going to take 3-4 years before we can compete with the big boys in the AFC. As it stands now though....they haven't done a whole lot to show me that they know what the hell they are doing.

It took Goff getting injured before we got a new RG.
Niswanger is STILL starting at center even though he ****ing blows.
There are players out there on other team's practice squad that should be getting activated by us....but they're not. Shit...even Harris on our practice squad needs to get moved up. Instead we got Quentin ****ing Lawrence.

AND WHY THE **** IS TERRANCE COPPER STILL ON THIS TEAM!?

How many ****ing times does the same false choice have to be trotted out?

Would we be demonstrably better in W's and L's had we drafted a QB @ 3, sat him for a year behind a vet/Croyle, and drafted heavily to the strength of the draft--OL, and stayed in a 4-3

No.

Would this team be showing signs of improvement towards the end of the year as younger players got significant run over 30+ year old broke dick nothings?

I think a case could be made.


Would that be infinitely better long term for the purposes of evaluating the young players that we do have?

Yes.

If this year is an evaluation year, then BRING IN SOME MOTHER****ERS WHO WILL STILL BE HERE WHEN THE EVALUATIONS WILL MATTER.

Moving away from the gimmick spread offense is already a step in the right direction. Why is so hard to fathom, that there would be growing pains along the way?

Yes, it takes more than one year to build a competitive team.

However, when you bring in over 30 new players, and only 2 of them are clear upgrades, it's going to take a LOT longer.

Most of the folks complaining weren't expecting more than 3-4 wins.

However, they were expecting to see progress, both at the team and individual level.

People can complain that Herm and Carl left them shit, but let's not forget that the new regime turned over 70% of the roster and brought in their handpicked players - and failed at every turn, save Succop and Chambers.

This team has a long,long,long, history of front office **** ups. For me that starts at the very top and rolls down hill.

We have a really stupid fan base that can't understand basic logic that is what this forum has taught me.

But hey drink that koolaid, right now Pioli's first year on the job is an epic fail. Shit draft, shit fa, but if someone wants to tell themselves different they can but the results are there. Our coaching staff sucks, our head coach is a reerun that screams like a woman on her period.

Do you have reading comprehension skills?

Where is the progress? Where is a nice core player Scott Pioli got us to build upon?

No one was asking for a good year but this idea that because we didn't expect that means everyone can completely suck and it's ok is stupid as hell.

It's not hard to fathom at all - it was expected - considering they brought in a gimmick, spread offense QB and backed up the Brinks truck to his door.

They're trying to force square pegs into round holes all over the roster, instead of playing the system that best suits the players.

Basically, this so-called "evaluation year" was nothing but a wasted year - and maybe the rebuild actually starts in 2010.

Maybe this season was a whole "fooled you" kind of thing. Cassel will hold a press conference where he pulls off his mask and he reveals that he's actually Tom Brady in disguise.

If we do turn it around, will you leave forever?

I wonder how many Patriots guys we can sign, that'll be the ticket.

How many times can a guy say "it's too soon to tell" until the idea finally registers. It's not about 2009. It's never been about 2009. Whether they've succeeded or failed is a question that can't possibly be answered now.

I don't know about that. This organization has been in loser mode for 3 years so I understand when they say they want to change the mentality or the culture of losing. But the best way to do that is to win so we still have a ways to go.

Ah yes I am so sorry that being honest has ruined your day.

Scott Pioli has brought in 30 new players and found 2 guys that are worth a shit, at this rate we'll be good in...15 years.

Actually, I haven't noticed anyone claiming that the "results are there". Just people who feel it is somewhat premature to jam our panties up our asses and hold our breath until we turn blue.

Interestingly, Haley had it right all along. We don't have sufficient talent to overcome mistakes and turnovers. Let's wait and see what happens during the upcoming off-season. Maybe we'll see improvement in both the coaching staff and player personnel. I'm confident that neither Pioli nor Haley are particularly pleased with the gang of idiots we fielded this year. We know for sure that they're not shy when it comes to pulling the trigger on a change.

FAX

It's taught me that, too, but I have a feeling it's for completely different reasons.

I really don't get why expecting Scott Pioli to find a handful of players for the future in his first year is asking to much but apparently it is.

You, honest. Ha.

I can handle someone coming at things with a perspective like Hamas, OTW, or Deez because they actually provide insight and don't act like 14 year old school girls.

I've stayed out of these discussions for the last several months because I wanted to sit back with an open mind and see what developed.

But with December upon us, and a day removed from probably our worst game of the season, I am with OTWP here.

I haven't given up on Pioli and Haley by any means (although my criticism of Haley in the Woody Paige thread suggests he's on a shorter leash). I'm not of the "Pioli's a fraud" mindset yet. But I think it's inescapable that to this point, 3/4ths of the way into the season, we're spinning our wheels.

Maybe things will start clicking down the stretch. I hope so. But I am very disappointed to see so little development of individual players and the head coach.

Again, I wasn't expecting to see improvement measured by wins. I didn't expect them to "turn it around in one season" (ala the 2008 Dolphins). I fully expected utter crap early in the season. But I DID expect to see better football played in December than I did in September.

Yes, we all wanted him to find losers. That's exactly it.

That's just the inherent polarization of internet discussion. If you're not with me, you're against me...

I think they might have with Jackson and Magee. But you know D-Lineman take alot longer to show progress than pretty much any position on the field.

He got THREE STARTERS with his first two picks. MaGee looks to be a solid role-player. We also got a starting Kicker. Washington has been injured(kind of hard to evaluate him)The other players are second day picks, I didn't expect much out of them in the first place.

ROFL ok hamas what EXACTLY DID pioli do in NE? enlighten us.

3 starters...

An old LB who's done, a QB who is shit and a 5 tech DE with a top 3 pick, color me unimpressed.

A "culture of losing" is a myth. When talented players and coaches are acquired, most teams tend to win.

Talking about fighting a "culture" is what losers do when they're not seeing results. It's a prolonged justification, citing something that is not quantifiable.

We haven't had a "losing culture" in KC; we've had a dog shit talent pool, on the 53 man roster and in the front office.

It's hilarious that the ones bitching about Tyson Jackson are likely the same ones who were saying that Glenn Dorsey needs time to develop because the DL is the toughest position for a rookie.

Question: why couldn't we have seen that improvement THIS YEAR?

It's not about developing with him, it's because he's a 3-4 DE. He could start a dozen consecutive pro bowls and it would still be a bad pick.

Okay, maybe I exaggerate.

A little.

That's because they didn't take Dorsey over Sanchex.


PhilFree:arrow:

It's obviously to much to ask for someone to take a job and actually do a good job right away.

I don't think it's too early to tell at all.

Honestly tell me who we've acquired since February that you think even has the remote possibility of becoming a core player here.

Here's my list:

Succop
Jackson


And Jackson is a case of "I hope" and not, "I think."

The rest have shown nothing to lead someone to believe that they'll be anything more than role players, rotational guys or special teamers - at best.

It doesn't take much, honestly.

Herm found Hali, Page, Pollard, Bowe and made something out of Allen his first two years. And I was sucking him off something fierce.

If Haley and Pioli can't even get ME on my knees.....FAIL!

You do understand there is a difference in taking a 4-3 DT you think can be Warren Sapp that some thought was the drafts best player and taking a guy who is a teens player.

Not to mention lineman in the 4-3 and 3-4 are not the same Dorsey was drafted to be an impact player Jackson will likely never be one.

We're changing the culture.

When his best move was the drafting of a kicker, that should send up a giant red flag.

28 mil is LESS MONEY THAN WE WOULD HAVE GIVEN HIM FOR TWO YEARS FRANCHISED. LESS. (not pointed at you fax) how can people not get that?

3 wins over 2 wins with 4 games left to play isn't an improvement?

The results on the field this year speaks for itself. However, I wonder if you handed Pioli + Haley Mike Shanarat's team, and handed Xanders + McDaniels Carl's team, and had McDaniels trade for Cassel, which he obviously would have done, whether Xanders + McDaniels would still be > than Pioli + Haley...

He was basically a consultant.

It is well established that Belichick is the guy in complete control there. Hell, when NE replaced Pioli, they brought in a consultant to do so.

Guys like Bill Simmons (who have inside contacts w/ the Patriots organization) have said that Belichick wields all the power.)

Worst spin-off of the decade: Joey Tribbiani getting his own show, Heidi Montag's music career or Scott Pioli getting his own team? (Waiting.) Do you need more time? Fine, you can have more time. Just remember, my peeps back in New England always swore that Belichick made every minor/major decision for the Pats -- literally, every single one -- while Pioli was along for the ride like DJ Jazzy Jeff. Actually, that's an insult to DJ Jazzy Jeff. But you get the idea.

Well, I would fit into this category, and I will defend Jackson from anyone who wants to call him a bust anytime soon.

But I'm still not 100 percent over this organization, IMO, blowing what was arguably the most important draft in team history.

Jackson can end up being great at what he does, his role, and the draft will still be a failure, and that's depressing.

Well one thing is for sure McDaniels rarely if ever looks as in over his head as Haley does.

I could care less about the money, to be honest, because we have the cap space to eat it this year and next.

What troubles me is the commitment that the $$$ signifies.

I personally haven't seen that Frank.

My argument for Dorsey is that he was mis-used his rookie year, and now moved to a position that he really doesn't fit at, but could make work because of his overall talent level.

I think both Jackson and Dorsey will be serviceable players and have long careers.

I expect more than serviceable out of two Top-5 picks we have over $60M invested in, however.

http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/v...eclap-Copy.gif

The real bitch is that those two clowns stumbled in to Brady, won three SB's, remained competitive even when they DIDN'T go the SB, fancied themselves gridiron geniuses, wrote a whole idiotic manifesto about their philosophy, and the majority of football bans bought that Hubbard-esque pile of shit as The Gospel, and now the Chiefs get to be yet another NFL franchise to demonstrate why it was ALL ****ING LUCK TO BEGIN WITH.