Not "basically".

In TOTALITY.

He totally made shit up.

LEAVE MO' KESSEL ALONE!!!11111

Ask Buck what?

no he saw Norv at Best Buy and that's where he got the quote...so a link isn't available

oh yeah well I heard Tom Cable say Cassel is the best QB he's seen this year so yeah

if you don't believe me it's all over the Raiders forum just ask Ugly Duck

I think it is more of the people who say that they won't be happy until the QB does X, and then ignore the fact that they did what they wanted and start bitching about the QB failing to do Y...

So....you got nothing.

He got nothing, never had nothing never will have nothing.

The shame of it is that a lot of the problem with the honest skeptics is that they don't look at all quarterbacks equally. You see that with the "X good games" arguments and the like. Peyton Manning, for example, has played 4 games with a QB rating below 70 this year (Cassel has 3), and has his team with a worse record than the Chiefs. Shockingly (:rolleyes:), you're not seeing the haters saying anything like "Well, Cassel's been better than Manning this year, BUT..". Instead, it's somehow about Cassel not proving himself against teams he hasn't played.*


* Note: I'm not saying Cassel is as good as Manning. I'm noting performance this season, and the disparate ways these things are viewed.

like we are going to believe the other Charger fans.....ES

...

You are a loser and have body odor!

keep looking at stats instead of watching games.
go suck norv's nob and rim rivers while you're at it.

I have not been a fan of Cassel... I was at this game and I think it was his best game yet... his stats and our drive charts would look better if we had a WR that could catch a ball on 3rd down.

His deep ball to Bowe was perfect and he had a lot of zip on his intermediate passes and nice touch on a couple of the short passes and screens.

Way to go Matt.. please keep progressing, not a fan but I'm starting to lean your way.

This....this is your argument.

this

Sure, lining up against Seattle/Arizona is a recipe for plug-and-play QB success.
Ask the following:

[vs. SEA]
1. Phillip Rivers, 55% completion percentage, 2 picks, 80 QB Rating (SD Loss)
2. Jay Cutler, 44% completion percentage, 0 TD's, 69 QB Rating (CHI Loss)

[vs. ARI]
1. Drew Brees, more INT's than TD's (NO Loss)
2. Kyle Orton, under 50% completion percentage, 0 TD's 3 picks (DEN Loss)

Don't give Cassel any credit. Forget his season statistics while you're at it.
Higher SEASON QB Rating than:
Both Mannings, Brees, Roethlisberger, Ryan, Flacco, Orton, Schaub and Garrard.
Still not good enough. Brilliant...

If we win the next two games, it will be the second 11-5 team Cassel has commanded in 3 years.

After dropping an appendix and winning a regular season game maybe donating a kidney before a playoff win will be enough.

Using your logic, let's find out what the CP community thinks of you....Lets really get a 'true measure' of your value here...

Howsa bout I start?

You make me want to take a shit on your keyboard and then force you to type an apology letter to every single person who clicked on this thread. Not a solid, well formed shit you would be like happy with after it is done. One of those shits that doesn't smell right and is about half liquid and half solid and you aren't completely satisfied when its over.

1. Trent Dilfer
2. Mark Rypien
3. Jim McMahon
4. Brad Johnson

All have SB rings as a starting QB so time to bust a new a crappy argument.

Yep :thumb:

Good response to a lame argument. Rep.

Amb should go ahead and die in a fire. This clown has always been a ****ing douchebag.

Congrats, Amb. 10+ yrs on this board and I've never added anyone to my ignore list. You're the 1st, asswipe! Kill yourself, maggot.

The original post mentions the last two games that Cassel has played.

Interesting material. Even more interesting, the one that Cassel didn't.

To act as if any QB could come in and do well in this system because of the run game is ridiculous. The offense, led by Croyle, had 70 total yards.

While I would never tout Cassel as MVP... when you look at the disparity between this team WITH Cassel, and this team WITHOUT Cassel..... there, in fact, may be no single player that is more important to their team.

Now, one would have to have more than one game to assert that confidently. However, it certainly looks that way.

Haven't read thread just an observation.
Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Drew Brees have no real running game.
Seems you either run the ball with an average to slightly above QB or you barely run the ball and throw it all over the field anymore.

Now now. You can't start using facts to bolster your pov.

It just isn't argue worthy if you do!

All things considered I'm already pumped for next year, no matter what happens this year I'd say we have a chance to show continuing improvement all around as a team and a franchise.

Back to CHIEFS dominance in the AFC/NFL.

The argument has never been "average QBs have never won the Super Bowl."
It has always been, "though an average QB could win a SB, a great one can have you in the hunt year-in and year-out."

So I guess it's all about what you want for the franchise. While everyone would be ecstatic with a SB win, wouldn't it be infinitely better to have a team equipped to at least be in the SB conversation every year?


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You don't see Cassel developing into that QB that would give us the probability of being a contender for a few years to come?

the whole team wants to play better for cassel because they see him giving it his all.

Of course this is just my opinion but that shows that Cassel is a leader and those on the team know that and are behind him 100%. That's good news for down the road.

But you've seen enough of Matt Flynn? Seriously, WTF?

Your point is valid, but your evidence is shaky, at least for the Patriots. They are tied for 11th in NFL with 4.3 yards per carry and 15th with 112 yards/game.

BJGE doesn't excite anyone, but he's an Antowain Smith plowhorse who almost never loses yards, and Woody is Woody. Sure, it's not Charles and Jones, but it's adequate.

But your point is valid, again. The NFL is no longer a run first league, or "run to set up the pass". But if you have NO running game, you do have problems.

I've seen Cassel make huge strides this year from a mechanical standpoint, and he's just emrging.

To suggest he's reached his ceiling is ridiculous.
It's possible that he has, but highly unlikely, because it's well documented that he puts in the work to improve.

That being said, the thing that has me sold on Cassel right now is that we see a team that believes in him.

That's well over half the battle.

He grown into the clear leader of this team.

Not to dismiss any of what you said before the last sentence, but this is the one big thing that has an impact on the team.

Cassel is going to be fine and barring injury just may be the QB that we need for the immediate future 2-4 years or more, IMO.

The best of those guys is barely average, I mean seriously the best guy on that list is fuggin Brad Johnson, and Brad Johnson was mediocre outside of that SB season.

I'm not sure I've ever rooted for a KC player to fail. I know there were several posters that wished Trent Green would fail because they didn't like the trade, etc. I just can't figure out why.

I hated the Tyson Jackson pick, but I don't want to see him fail. Look at his contract? We're bitching about Cassel's? And speaking of the contract or money...who cares? Cassel didn't ask for that contract nor should he be judged on it or have to live up to it. Blame Pioli if you don't like it...Not Cassel.

Right now, Cassel is playing with confidence, going through reads, showing good footwork and pocket awareness. His accuracy has improved and mistakes have reduced.

...But by all means, keep rooting against him Chiefs fans??
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Well technically, Cassel or his agent, had to ask for more than what Cassel got in his contract.

I hated that trade, but I never rooted for Green to fail.

I grew to respect Green, though I never had faith that he could make plays consistently late in games.

But I hated that trade for the very same reason I hated the trade for Montana.

Age.

I don't need to necessarily draft a QB, but I want a young QB that has the potential to lead this team for more than 6 or 7 years.

I'm watching Matt Cassel grow into the position, and now believe he has the chance to be that guy for the next 6-8 years.

But damn, I hope to hell that we someday find and groom a guy that can be that guy for 10-12-13 years.

Yeah, except Cassel played as bad as Brody did last 3 times he faced the Chargers. Cassell is getting rep points based on things he hasn't done, not on what he has. Typically when that happens a huge step back is sure to come.

No, that's not true.

Cassel is getting credit for things he's doing today that he wasn't doing even in convincing wins (like Jacksonville and SF). The pocket awareness to slide around when the rush is coming, he's stepping into his throws instead of nervously throwing off his back foot, looking at multiple receivers instead of staring down the primary read, and whereas in the past he would become visibly frustrated when things weren't going well, against St. Louis he took complete charge and got his team to rally around him.

Those aren't the kinds of things that are going to disappear just because he's playing San Diego. I don't know how he would have done against San Diego. But you can't deny that those things above are proof of SIGNIFICANT improvement, regardless of strength of opponent.

This is BS. The guy has the 5th QB rating in the league, 25-5 TDs to INts, and has been the 2nd most efficient QB in his last 5 games, behind only Brady. Stop talking out of your ass, and BTW, I cannot wait till you guys step foot in Arrowhead a cpl weeks from now. Have fun watching us play our home game in the POs.

Cassel's put up Pro Bowl/borderline Pro Bowl numbers in 2 of his 3 seasons as a starter. I assume you're giving him plenty of "rep points" as a result.

Let me clarify: Cassell is getting bonus points based on how bad Croyle and the team looked against SD. The chiefs looked so bad everybody says, "Oh wow Cassel really must be good if the team looks this bad". He comes back into the lineup, the chiefs play better, and all the sudden in the minds of many Cassel's an MVP candidate. However, if you take a closer look at things:

A: The one time he did face the Chargers this year Cassel looked damn near as bad as Croyle did (10-25 ~60 yds)

B: He has improved but still in his last 2 starts Cassel has been very pedestrian at around 50% and < 200 yds passing.

C: Winning football games tends to make people overlook weaknesses.

To put another way, he hasn't arrived yet. If Cassel continues to play the way he did against Denver and St. Louis he will be nothing more than a mediocre QB. His improvements need to continue before he's worthy of the praise he's getting.

If he plays the next 2 games exaactly the same way he played vs Denver and St. Louis and the Chiefs lose I imagine the majority of this board will likely be ready to throw him under the bus again.

Why do you people who want to bash Cassel cite to the similarities while ignoring the differences? The first SD game was a matchup in horrible weather with the Chiefs sitting on a lead. The second game was a matchup in great weather, with the Chiefs falling behind early.

That fundamentally changes what's required from your quarterback in the current version of Weis' system.


To put it another way, quit posting bullshit.

So,

Your point is based on him doing something he hasn't done?

I think it was you who made the argument many times that when he's good, it's because he believes in himself. Not to pick nits, but I think his play over the second half of the season has far more to do with growth in that area than the team's belief in him.
But that doesn't discount the importance of the team believing he'll get the job done.


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And this is the entire problem with the argument. Somehow people like you have deluded yourselves into thinking that, somehow, people so passionate about this team have decided to "root against" a part they think is bad, rather than passionately point out that they wish their team was better at that position.
It's akin to saying a guy who wants/needs new performance tires is rooting for a flat.


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You were obviously either not around in mid-November, or you weren't paying attention. This kind of talk has been going on since at least the game at Mile High, where some Cassel supporters started piecing together the highly efficient game against Jacksonville, a drive against Buffalo, and a half of football against Denver's prevent, so they could state their case that Cassel was on his way.


No one (not many, anyway) seemed to bring up point 'A' when they lost to the Chargers... everyone was really hung up on putting it all on Croyle.

I agree with the rest of it... no, he hasn't arrived, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't get any credit for improving so much (not that you're saying he shouldn't).

And re: "the majority of this board will likely be ready to throw him under the bus again"... maybe you have been paying attention after all. :hmmm:

You're right, I did say that when Cassel plays with confidence, he plays much better.

That is true for just about anyone actually, but really highlighted by Cassel's inconsistency in his time as a Chief.

However, that has nothing to do with how the team responds to him.

Earlier in the year, the team looked like a ship without a rudder, but they now seem to have found direction, and that is because they now appear to have a leade to follow.

Winning football games is what it is all about. The team has confidence in him...that counts. I was at the game on the KC side in the lower bowl near the 50. I watched Cassel on and off the field. It was very evident that the Chiefs were going to win that game. You could feel the confidence by watching him and the rest of the team's interacation.
Get over your hate for the guy.

I think c2e is still butt hurt over JaMarcus being cut.

You can spin it however you want. The bottom line is that posters on here would relish in the fact that KC didn't make the playoffs because Cassel played poorly these last 2 games.

You either root for him or against him. There is no in between.
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I think you are completely wrong about that.

You couldn't be more wrong.
But that's your right. There are tons of people who don't care if they are wrong about stuff.


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Ehh.... seems pretty clear that there are posters who are more emotionally invested in Cassel failing than they are in the team doing well. Whether you take that as them actually rooting against the team in order to buttress their position, or just being complete douchebags towards a specific player, is largely a matter of individual interpretation.

I think there are a number of posters who still need to see something from Cassel in a critical situation against superior teams to really buy into him.

I think that's legitimate.

Not all of us. I was one of the biggest Cassel haters last year and at the start of this year. I have changed my mind. Well no not really, Cassel changed my mind for me.

With Matt it was never about numbers for me. I don't need a QB that throws for 300 yards every game. I needed a QB that didn't look like he was about to crap himself anytime his first WR wasn't open. I needed a QB that didn't lock onto that one WR and throw into triple coverage (did this alot last year). I needed a QB that would step into this throws and feel the pressure around him.

Matt is all of those things now. He is moving around in the pocket. Rarely throws into bad situations, steps into the throws (anyone else notice his accuracy went up as soon as he started doing this) and finds the open guy. He is doing everything I wanted him to do at this point. He's not Tom Brady but then very few guys are. Everyone that is like TB can be found in Canton. Those guys don't come along often.

Sanity!

While I think your premise is reasonable, albeit flawed (Pitt from last year comes quickly to mind), I don't think it extends to all the bashers. There's no doubt in my mind that there are Chiefs fans posting here who would get more satisfaction from a Cassel int against the Raiders that cost the Chiefs a postseason spot than they'd get from a Cassel TD strike that resulted in a come-from-behind victory and locked up the division title. They are just that invested in the notion of Cassel failing.

Bull****.

If you are dedicated in finding flaws in something you will. Especially in sports.

I can spot clients that are dedicated to being unhappy from miles away. I don't need their business.

The only emotional investment I see is wanting the Chiefs to do the best... And the anger that goes along with their belief that they've settled for second beat at the QB position.

Why would anyone get bent out of shape about Cassel, TJ, or any player if they weren't invested in seeing thus team do well?


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I gave Cassel props for that Pittsburg game, but that isn't really the kind of critical situation we are talking about here.

And I think there there is probably small group of people who are that are invested in the notion of failing.

But I don't think it's going to be more than a handful, at most, and I believe that the majority of the posters that I believe that TRR is referring to will come around when Cassel meets the requirements I'm talking about.

Sorry but, if you can't see it, you're blind. The team is 9-5 and leading the division, just 2 years removed from a 2 win season, and there's still a significant portion of this board bitching about Cassel at every opportunity.

That's not "wanting the Chiefs to do the best".

As far as MC goes I wasn't that unhappy with him last year. There were a number of reasons he got a pass from me last year but the big one being that the ****ing offense was thrown out before the season even started.

I expected more from him with a full training camp with this new coaching staff and just the same year under his belt that the whole organization was enjoying.

I was pretty disappointed at the start. Not throwing in the towel but being disappointed that I was seeing the same kind of stuff I did last year. However, there would be flashes of not just good passes but great passes. You could tell it was getting there. I also thought it was weird how he would seem to not do well with out established offense but when we were in 2 min situations he would zip the ball down just fine. Like that hurry up mentality made things more simplified.

Somewhere along the season I remember seeing improvement and feeling like he graduated from "bad to inconsistent" he would show us things but enough to where you felt comfortable to deliver. Then he went from "inconsistent to good" you could just see this was a guy who was making passes and leading this team. It was soooo nice to see.

If you aren't sold yet then oh welllll.

I disagree with this, but I think you are close. People don't want the Chiefs to lose. Those who have the most invested in him failing want us to win in spite of him when we win and lose because of him when we lose. They would rather have the former, but the last thing they want is for Cassel to play great and have us still lose.

I'd say it goes down like this in terms of what the bashers want:

1. Chiefs win and Cassel plays poorly (We win, and I'm right!)



2a. Chiefs win and Cassel plays well (I'm wrong, but at least we won)
2b. Chiefs lose and Cassel plays poorly (I told you so!)



3. Chiefs lose and Cassel plays well (FML)

Don't you think that, in many cases, he has met their initial requirements only to watch as the goalposts are whisked away?

TRR is correct. Some people come out from under their bridges when Cassel plays poorly.

Exactly. If you held MC or this team up to that golden standard then so be it but all these people who preseason used all this hyperbole about what they would do or think if the Chiefs won 7 or 9 games (one members actually saying he would suck his own cock) only to sit back and find more holes to pick when it all comes true then screw you. lol

Spot on. I think there is literally nobody who wants the Chiefs to lose. Maybe Mecca...but aside from Mecca nobody.

I don't know.

I do know that a many of these guys have asked me many times since Cassel was traded for and I posted my observations and thoughts from watching '08 Patriot replays on NFL Network over the summer if I thought he was a guy that could lead this team to wins in the playoffs?

Until the last month, my answer was no.

I do believe otherwise now.

There's a lot of gray area, even for those like myself who admitted to hating the acquisition and his play for the majority of his time in KC. I'm sorry, when you post a QB rating of 14.6, and then claim you graded out "perfectly," I won't say positive things.

But even during this period, if he performed well, made a good throw, etc., I said so (usually in game threads).

So, back to the initial question. Again, this is too simplistic. Did I react rashly to the initial acquisition? Perhaps. Did I react rashly to his on-field play? I think a strong argument can be made for "no."

What might be my biggest mistake is that I claimed that "presence" and "football instincts" cannot be learned at the highest level. If Cassel continues his current trajectory, he will definitely prove me wrong.

Well, hasn't one of the problems with the Cassel/Anti-Cassel debates been the moving goalposts? That Steelers game was an overtime win against a better opponent. Cassel brought the team back from a 17-7 deficit. That's succeeding in a critical situation against a better team, yet you're now essentially saying "But that's not enough". And that's even though you're one of the people who've warmed to him a bit. Some of the other posters will still be complaining if he wins 2 Super Bowls, because he'll have failed to cure cancer and all STDs while he was at it.

I think some of it is people who have legitimate reservations about Cassel's ability to consistently get it done against top competition. That's an open question, and a legitimate thing to watch moving forward. I do, though, think it's pretty shitty of them to take that position and keep bashing the QB at the same time, since he can only play the teams he lines up against.

I agree with this. Unfortunately, that handful made the board almost unbearable for much of last year, and the beginning of this season. The good news is that their voices are a lot less influential now.

The Chiefs weren't playing for anything but pride at that time.

It just doesn't register as critical by my definition.

And therein lies the escape clause. Mind you, I'm not calling you out as one who's specifically moved the posts. I'm just noting the way the goalposts get moved.

Got it.
Wanting better from our QB is NOT wanting the best.
Makes sense.


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Escape clause?

Enlighten me.

How does a team with nothing more than draft position to play for find itself in a critical situation?

JFC


I'm a Patriots fan, and I still want better from Brady. I'd expect that about 99.99999999% of Colts fans feel that way about Manning. That doesn't translate to bashing the QB over every incompletion. You're trying to make them the same thing.