So you think if both rotations are healthy, the Marlins would be better than the Cards with Carpenter, Wainwright, Garcia, Jackson,Lohse?

I know Jackson isn't gonna be here next year but for shits and giggles.

Ken_RosenthalKen Rosenthal

Source: #STLCards willing to trade Lohse or Westbrook. Confirms report by @Buster_ESPN. #MLB

Making room...

I dont think anyone is going to be knocking on Lohse's door. 12mil for a #3-4?

Of course they would, they both suck.

Lozano is apparently cash strapped. I don't know how agents work, but if it's anything like similarly situated attorneys, they'll encourage their client to take the money as quickly as possible.

That's a pretty bizarre hypothetical given that Wainwright and Jackson never pitched together.

Further, the 2011 Cardinals got precisely zero innings from Adam Wainwright, so he's not terribly relevant to that discussion either.

In 2012, the Cardinals rotation of Wainwright, Carpenter, Garcia, Lohse and Westbrook will be better than the Marlins rotation of Johnson, Sanchez, Nolasco, Volstead and #5, but lets not act like it's a walk-away.

We don't know what WW will come back as next season anymore than we know about Johnson. When they're both healthy, they're comparable. Carpenter, for as fantastic as he was from September on, was mediocre prior to that. He's probably going to be the oldest SP in the national league next season and he's thrown a TON of innings over the last 2; I expect a significant regression from him. If Sanchez can stay as effective as he was in the 1st half, Sanchez could have a better year. Nolasco is a maddening headcase, but he's also capable of striking out 16 batters in a game. Let's not act like Garcia's the most consistent or unflappable guy in the majors himself; Nolasco could easily have a better year. Lohse is what he is; a pretty good pitcher with a weak stomach; he's a suitable #3 but you want him no higher.. He's better than Volstead and that's pretty much the only clear 'victory'. Westbrook is dogshit. Complete and utter dogshit. I hate him, I hate his family, I hate his pets. At least the current Marlins #5 (Hand) has some upside if he would stop walking guys.

Yeah, the Cardinals probably have a better rotation, but it's not like we're lapping the field here.

Nobody cares.

A lot more people care about the best team in the area in any sport by a wide margin over those who care about the cornhumpers.

Didn't catch Lynn in the postseason, eh?

There were no significant differences from Carp's stat line aside from his ERA compared to 2010. He was a great pitcher from June on.

A bit generous with "area," aren't we?

I don't hear you complaining when the area includes places like Norman and Iowa City.

My area is Missouri. Don't really give a shit about anything else, or people too wrapped up in their own bitterness to recognize that.

they got new seats to fill!!!

Area = city/media market

Region = conference footprint/U.S. census groupings/loose popular groupings, i.e. "Midwest"/etc.

If he leaves for the Marlins, then he was FOS in all his previous statements and it was all about the money.

We got him for 11 of his best years. He has maybe 2 more of those years left but wants to be paid for 10 more years like that.

It makes sense for the Cards to do that but not anyone else.

Whatever. You have your area, and I have mine. Glad they're not the same. Winning the occasional championship certainly feels better than, well, whatever it is that you do.

I don't even think it makes sense for the Cards to do that and apparently they don't either. So much for the home town discount. Pujols is just another me first athelete who over values himself and puts himself above the team or winning. Not the first, certainly won't be the last.

You guys act as if Miami hasn't added anything to compete...

The guy has a chance to stay in STL and get to legend status especially in the town of STL.

IMO Staying in one of the most historical baseball cities and becomes its icon>going to Miami for 30 million more dollars.


But I guess i'm a poor college kid who doesn't understand 30 million dollars means.

THey have.

However the guy has always said that he wanted talent added aroudn him in STL and just wanted to win. They did both.

I get the hurt from Cards fans. I also get he wants the most money he can make.

I hope by this you don't mean that the Cardinals are "Missouri's team"?

God, that area is two completely different worlds from the 90's to now.. My old neighborhood of 3bedroom2bath's are all hud homes now.. Driving through on thanksgiving what do I see?? Little wanna be gangbangers with their asses hanging out... Shit, in the 90s it was kids outside playing sports..

Well East Independence (fort osage area) was.. West has always been garbage..

BNightengaleBob Nightengale

#STLCARDS Pujols now has three teams that are offering 10-year contracts in excess of $200 million: STL, MIAMI, AND unidentified team

Rangers.

Better not be my Cubbies. **** that game.

I didn't say that at all. They have for now yes. It's never been in their nature to stay competitive though for long. I'm talking about a guy in his low 30's (as far as we know) demanding that kind of money for 10 more years. I just find it ridiculous on both sides part. It's the business of sports these days though.

That is so much money.

We'll have to wait and see what kind of fan base their new stadium and roster brings.

They couldn't sustain a team because no one goes to their games. Same shit with Tampa Bay. Tampa just has a really, really, really good scouting/development thing going on.

st. louis fans sounding a bit bitter here, fwiw.

10 years is 5 years too long of a deal.

Surely he re-signs with StL again if this is the case... for all the reasons mentioned before.

Can you blame them? I can't.

I haven't heard anything about Stl upping their 9/198 offer.

lol,oh boy

All tweets around the board indicate the Marlins want to get this done tonight if he's serious... they don't want to be used to jack up the price.

Exactly. If he really ends up being dominant still after another big 5 year deal then sign another deal after that and say "I told ya so." Don't handcuff a team you want to win with though with 10 years for the kind of money he wants. He has to understand that isn't good business for any team... which is why I find him to be just another me first guy.

Yes I understand you want to get all you can... and he will... it would just be nice to see someone use some logic once in a sports contract negotiation. OK I admit that last sentence is funny.

Front load the contract.

Just going off the Nightengale tweet in post 104

Well.... yeah....... good thing the price isn't already jacked up by them heh.

If he'll do that, yes.

Read an interesting article that a lot of these moves might be a way of invigorating the hispanic fan base in Miami. If that's the case, and it's actually kind of brilliant, then I don't see that fan base being the same as the shitty fan base that roots for the Heat or the Dolphins.

Not to say that they want Pujols for his hispanic descent. Guillen, Reyes, Pujols... this is quickly becoming Latin America's team. And it's the perfect market to do that.

I'm a Cardinal fan so maybe I'm a little sore on the subject, but in my eyes this makes him worse than Lebron.

Lebron left because he wanted to win a championship. Or basically have one given to him.

Albert has won 2 WS as a Cardinal. This is all about money. Can't blame the guy I guess, I just like guys of his stature to start and finish with one team.

I believe I'd be bitter too after what they've been led to believe from him and the fact that not only is there no such thing as a home town discount in a city that loves him, who just won a 2nd World Series with him... but now he appears to be sitting with his feet up on the owners desk in Miami smoking thousand dollar bills and saying keep throwing the money at me boys I'm not feeling loved enough just yet.

No, totally, totally different situations.

I like the Cardinals and hope Pujols stays. But how can you blame him for wanting more money at this stage in his career? He's earned that right. Lebron, on the other hand, promised Cleveland a championship and then chicken-shitted out so he can buy a championship. And unless Pujols makes some kind of a chicken shit announcement on national TV, he'll do it with more character than Lebron did too.

I could see why a Cards fan would be mad. But it's hard to mad at a guy who has done so much for the team and the city.

One thing people have to understand is this is a Jim Thome situation... MLB union won't allow hometown discounts... and FWIW the Cardinals have already had one hell of a hometown discount from him.

LeBron got tired of waiting for the Cavs to put some good complimentary players around him imo. I've never blamed him for leaving. He didn't get much help from the front office in Cleveland.

yep...he's a great player and i believe he's a great person. but once he signs w/another team, he'll never be the greatest cardinal. i hoped to see him try to be that, but oh well.
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10 years? No thanks if I am the Cards. Up the annual money and go 7.

Maybe 8. No more. Anyone giving him 10 years is nuts and I am a huge Cards fan.

I'm not sure about that. On a much smaller scale Bruce Chen reportedly re-signed with KC for a little less than another offer. There's mention of it in the repository thread somewhere.

If he does leave St. Louis, it would be a good time for the Royals to start winning. They could recoup alot of the bandwagoners who hopped on the Cardinals train.

I guess so. I just see it as look what the team and city has done for Albert. He has a chance to be "the" Cardinal. Not a Cardinal, "the" Cardinal. I guess in my eyes as a big Cardinal fan that would be worth more to me than the money.

Also how much more money are we talking in Miami? I havne't really paid attention to that.

There was a report of $230 mill but it's unconfirmed I think.

I agree with you though... I hate the Cardinals but Pujols should stay there and be the man. It's not like he's going to run out of money with what they can pay. I appreciate guys who are loyal to teams/citys that are good to them.

Pretty sure Nightengale's source is called either Dan or Mr. Lozano by Nightengale. The "Mystery Team" tm deal is agent baloney. There are 7,000 reporters down there and nobody has chased down the team? It doesn't exist.

LMAO this is a city where a pro soccer team flopped (pretty sure it was full of Latin players), there IS no market here. People here are too self involved to give a shit about pro sports. This is just throwing good money after bad.

Cubs maybe?

these guys are mercenaries. you can't expect anything better of them, man. granted, it's easy to think otherwise at times.

Meh. Like UFC Knight said, Pujols has also been good to the Cardinals. He's been paid 14mil(?) a year through his prime up until now. I think it's time for the Cardinals to step up to the plate.

ESPN reported its the Cubs.

You would this Theo would have learned his lesson after seeing the boat anchors he left the Sox with.

For some reason I dont buy that.

They've been after Fielder for less years at a higher annual salary. Doesn't make sense that they would also offer a 31 year old 10 years.

If the report of them being at 10 years and over 200 mill now is true I'd say they have stepped up. I think they'd like to be able to keep a team around him too.

Point taken. I hate the other Miami sports. Thought it could have been an interesting angle, but you never know.

It could also be that hispanic fans don't hate the Miami soccer team as much as it is that they hate MLS.

Ya well, they aren't worried about matching any offers he gets. They are expecting a discount.

You don't think they should expect one?

As I've said I think they should get one.

They've had one for years.

He could have asked for more when he got his last deal as he was really entering his prime. At his age now though the demands are ludicris... imo. We can agree to disagree.

think so? they made the offer and he signed it. just because he played his best, you think they should have paid him more than what he signed for? life don't work that way. i mean, if my boss gives me a giant "bonus" cause i kicked ass at work, that's great. but i really don't expect it.
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The Cubs offer is old news though, it was reported yesterday that they'd made an offer that wasn't considered enough (no surprise since they don't want to give the years Pujols wants) why would they go from making an offer to "MYSTERY TEAM" unless its Lozano looking for more leverage?

In case you didn't know, Pujols was kicking ass just as much before signing his previous contract. It didn't just click for him recently.

He had plenty good enough supporting casts for a marquee player to win a championship with. The team was built around him.

Pujols has worked hard, carried himself humbly, finished business in STL, and is now leaving for more money. Not a decision I would make, but maybe he's looking for a new challenge. New scenery. Or to make a little bit more money before he retires. But the difference is, he doesn't leave with any unfinished business.

Lebron gave up in his final playoff series with the Cavs, knew he was going to Miami the entire year and yet strung the Cavs along for an entire year (screwing the Cavs' chance to get good free agents), went on live TV to humiliate a city of very loyal fans, and then spent an entire year wondering why people were mad about it. And worst of all, he committed the biggest crime to a sports fan--he decided he was going to manipulate the system to win a championship because he couldn't do it on his own.

This isn't even in the same ballpark as Lebron.

I don't think the demands are ridiculous. I think the offers are ridiculous.

If I'm Pujols, I'm going to demand what the best offer is going to be.

I didn't say Pujols is the same as LeBron, I just said I didn't blame LeBron for leaving. The way he did it was stupid yes. We can disagree on the level of talent around LeBron.

I get that a guy is going to look for money. When he turned down 9 years/$198 from the Cards last off season his demands became ridiculous... in my opinion.

i know...i've followed his progress.

i sign a contract w/my employer every 3 years. they know what they're paying me. i know what they're paying me. hell, i think i'm one of the most productive employees at my company, but i know what i signed that contract for. if the lazy dipshit next to me makes more, i don't give a rats ass. his contract, his business. when my next contract comes up, i'll sign for the next 3 years, not for the last 30 years i've worked there. it's pretty simple, really.

like i said...i've loved having ap play for my favorite team. i'd love for him to be a cardinal forever. but if he wants to leave for bigger bucks than what he's going to produce for my team in the future years, thus being detrimental to the rest of the club, then let him go.
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You and Dan Gilbert are the only idiots you actually beleive this.

Drew Gooden, Ilgauskus, Larry Hughes, Varejao. And in every team he played for, the Cavs had one of the most suffocating defenses in the league with plenty of solid role players. The team was built around a superstar. In the later years, they couldn't get Lebron better players because Lebron refused to sign a long-term contract. That's why they traded for shitty stopgaps like Jamison and Joe Smith. Because no free agent in their right mind would sign a long-term deal.

Lebron played on plenty of supporting casts that would have won a championship with a superstar.

You're really making the arguement that those 4 guys were a good enough supporting cast to win a title? Really? Even as a KU homer I know Gooden was mostly worthless... and Anderson Varejao?! Anderson Varejao???!!!

Good God man! Hate LeBron all you want but damn...

10 years, 200 million is a lot, and Albert probably has 5-7 years left...but if you win another world series or two, wouldn't it be worth the cost?

And I don't believe this crap I hear about St. Louis being a "small market" team....They have the cash to do this, and it would not hamper them in anyway to continue to rebuild a winner.

Reports trickling out that the Cardinals matched the Marlins 10 year offer with the same money and added a full no trade clause.