Good for you man. That's awesome.

Back in '79-'80, I was managing a 7-11.

It was about a 35-40 minute drive to get the the games, and I went to about 30-40 games a year.

I had no interest in going anywhere to drink after, because of the drive, and because I had to be at work the next morning at 6am.

These are the people who aren't going to games now.

Why make that drive, or even longer drives, to see a shitty product.

Those downtown patrons aren't going to make that big a difference.

It's the people who have to make the drive that are going to make the difference in attendence.

A dowtown stadium wouldn't improve the drive for anybody anyways. Its a pain to go downtown when there is a concert. Be so much worse with games going on. I like where the stadiums are and how many different access points there are. I especially love the entrance not many people seem to know about when driving from south on 435 and then getting off onto the Raytown Rd exit. You get off the highway and have parked within five minutes.

Sure people working down there could catch a game, but considering its not exactly a huge downtown how many people extra is that really? Any difference a downtown stadium would make in attendance would be multiplied significantly by a winning team.

That's great and all, but 7-11 employees aren't really going to fill up stadiums. If you're going to put three million asses in the seats, you're going to need to get white collar people with expense accounts taking their clients to games, buying them booze, etc.

Businesses buy season tickets. When there is a day game in Saint Louis, half the people there are using company tickets. It's not as appealing to drive out to ****ing Raytown as it is to walk across the street, and it's sure as shit not as appealing to drink Sprite at Denny's afterwards as it is to down Sapphire and tonics on a rooftop bar fifty stories up across the street from Busch Stadium.

It blows my mind that people actually think that the Truman Sports Complex is as good of a place for a baseball stadium as downtown next to the Kauffman Center.

This is why Kansas City has an airport just south of Des Moines, a city council that gets into flame wars with its mayor (even though they belong to the same political party), and schools that can't seem to hang on to their accreditation for longer than a Kardashian can stay married.

Kansas City: Come for the parking, stay for the lack of traffic

LMAO

So how many more people a year would the K average if it was downtown?

They'd get maybe 3 thousand more per game if the game was downtown. As long as they lose 90 games per year, it wouldn't matter if the stadium was downtown, uptown or lefttown.

That same airport is rated in the top 5 midsize International Airports every year so seems like you're the only one complaining.

I guess you also hate the Yankees for having a stadium in the Bronx instead of Manhattan. Or the Jets/Giants for having a stadium in New ****ing Jersey. Or the 49ers for building a stadium in Santa Clara. Or the Cowboys Stadium for being in Arlington.

Not every stadium has to be downtown. If people can't handle driving 10 minutes out of the downtown area to see a game, tough shit.

I love flying from the KC airport. I don't know why you'd want an airport near the city anyway. DFW does and it takes up a huge piece of prime real estate.

Keep in mind people on this board think building arenas and polishing turd stadiums is more important than improving schools and 100 year old sewers.

It's common sense downtown has more people and more stuff to do. You wouldn't see 10k at the K on a Tuesday night if the stadium were built downtown.

3,000 x 81 x $100 comes to nearly $25,000,000 per year. That's enough to sign an ace and a solid #2 starter. Suddenly, you could have a good team AND a stadium in a location that makes sense.

x100?


For a Royals game?

$100?!?

edit: Also, chalk me up as highly, highly skeptical that downtown would help. I don't live in KC. The K is extremely convenient. Speaking for just myself, a downtown stadium would, at best, be a wash. Maybe I'll go to the same number of games, but there's a possibility I'd go to fewer due to the increased hassle.

Or you would go to more. 35 goes right down town theres more hotels downtown than in the middle of nowhere. Theres plenty of things for families to do for a whole weekend downtown. You can walk to legoland, the aquarium, etc.

$30 for a ticket.
Five beers at $8 each
$10 for food.

Call it $80 if you want. You're still talking about twenty million. The crowd at downtown games spend more money on average because a huge percentage of them are entertaining with expense accounts.

It's not like the stadiums are that far from downtown. People act like it's in Gardner or something.

It's not just the distance. If you have to get in your car and drive, it's a pain in the ass compared with walking across the street. If you can't pre-party at a bar near the stadium, it isn't as fun.

Leave the office at five...game is at seven...what should I do?

Should I go hang out at a bar by the stadium? No, there aren't any. How about a restaurant? No, there aren't any. Maybe I'll do some shopping. No, there isn't any.

Instead, you can either go home for thirty minutes, get back in your car and drive to Raytown and then go right back home or drive twenty more minutes to a bar to post game, or you can go out for drinks, then drive half drunk to the game, have more drinks, drive completely drunk for twenty more minutes to another bar to post game, and then get a DUI on the way home.

Look, I love Royals games. They are boring as ****, though. There is a reason people love going to Cubs games, and it's not because they win. It's because you pre game at Captain Morgan's and postgame at Cubby Bear.

You mean the same people who sit in the Club Level at Arrowhead? Pfft, I could do with out those limp wristed, white zin drinking fuddy duddies making any kind of appearance at games anyway. You are only furthering my belief that things should stay as they are.

You might actually see less considering there are more things to do rather watch a losing ball club.

Or maybe it's because Chicago has 8 million more people than KC? If KC had 8 million more people, Kauffman would fill up no matter what also.

Just how many hundreds of thousands or millions of people do you think will work close to the stadium?

I don't care where you hypothetically place the stadium, you are not going to get 3,000 extra people within close walking distance decide to, walk, after work, to a game 81 times a year, and you definitely will lose tickets on people thinking "eh, not today, its a pain in the ass to park, maybe next month"

Wait, Glass would actually spend the extra revenue on the roster in stead of stuffing it in own pockets? I'm confused.

Given the size of KC, we're doing pretty damned good. People are acting like downtown KC is a massive global megalopolis with the streets teeming with hordes of people.

You keep talking about this walking across the street thing. Honestly, how many people in the metro work downtown? If you ask me, MOST people will still have to get in their car and drive some where. So I'm not seeing how this makes things any simpler. Once you factor in the parking hassle, I see it still being LESS simple.

Chicago has like 9 million people, and can't you take the train to Wrigley? There's no train in KC, you'd still have to drive eventually. I don't even know if the downtown KC area would turn into some party zone. It's not that huge of a commercial district as far as I can tell. I worked down there. I've been to downtown stadiums.
I also used to work downtown Houston and so did my wife. You could see Minute Maid from her office. Still, we had a kid, so we just got out of downtown anyway. He was in daycare across town.
And if we wanted to go get our kid and drive back downtown? Forget it. Parking was $20, unless you wanted to take your chances and cruise around for 25 minutes.
I like downtown stadiums, but I just don't think a downtown KC stadium would turn downtown into some party zone.
As far as getting a DUI on the way home- that would be the same with a downtown stadium. People would still be driving back to Johnson County or wherever. And most employers probably wouldn't let you leave your car in their parking lot until 10:30 PM anyway.

Saul Good thinks KC is Chicago or NY.

In those cities, yes a lot if not most people work downtown in the city.

The number of people that live in Kansas City is around 500k, with a metro area of about 2 million according to wiki.

Would I be opposed to having a downtown stadium? Not really. But I don't think it needs to happen, I think the Truman Sports Complex is just fine the way it is.

I will agree though that it sucks there are no bars/restaurants in the area.

Parking has been a bitch for me at the Sprint center and P&L. I can't imagine what it would be like for a downtown stadium. Doesn't really matter though..... as long as Glass owns the team.

I agree. When you go downtown you sure as heck don't park at P&L and walk to Crown Center. People actually within walking distance of a downtown stadium would be minimal. And also, how many people would you LOSE each game? A lot of families go to games and I am sure far fewer would be wanting to take their wife and three kids to a game downtown.

You got anything to back that up other than your opinion?

You mention 4 NFL teams and 1 MLB team, the freakin Yanks! Seriously, trying to compare the loyalty of Yankee fans to Royals fans is truly FAIL. Same goes for the Cubs comparison in somebody's later post. Haven't Cubs fans proven they'll show up for loser teams for a a couple/three decades now?

As for NFL, again 8 regular season home games is a completely different situation than 80 home games. Location is really not a pressing issue for 8 home dates over 4 months.

I've got a shit ton of receipts from my last trip to Saint Louis.

Baseball games in downtown stadiums are events. Baseball games in Raytown are gatherings.

Look where those idiots built their stadium. It's right in the middle of where tens of thousands of people work and socialize every day. Why the **** would they do that?

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/j...schStadium.jpg

Now this is what I call vision. No buildings or people to get in the way of that beautiful 120 acre parking lot. It's just perfect for all those people who want to leave work at 5:00, drive home in rush hour traffic, get home at 5:45, get back in the car at 6:05, hit the taco bell in Raytown on the way at 6:30, pay to park, roll into the stadium at 6:50, and drive straight home after the game.

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x...s/1981/142.jpg

Yeah, I mean look at the way the Orioles and Pirates have just been talking over baseball with their downtown stadiums.

Hey, I think a downtown stadium would be great. We don't and won't have one. How do we improve what we have?

You do realize that Busch Stadium was privately financed, correct? And that the city gave Cardinals major tax breaks after they had a plan in place for a stadium in Illinois?

Look at what these dumb****s did.

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w...acbellpark.jpg

Its really not that easy.

Mention the Marlins and how they ****ed the city when building their new stadium.

By throwing a few hundred million more dollars of public funds towards enriching David Glass?

Am I right?

Go to the crossroads or pnl during the week. I promise you people will go to the baseball game instead.

You promise? That makes me feel so much better about it then.

Chicago Cubs, 33-52, last place, 8th in MLB in attendance with 37,522 fans per game which is 91.2% of capacity.

Chicago White Sox, 47-38, 25th in attendance with 23,091 per, 56.9% capacity.

I guess Chicago has more people than Chicago.

Like building a new stadium downtown won't do that?

What does that mean?

That makes no sense. You are just being ridiculous now.

We spent the money anyway, and we got a couple of stadium bars and a carousel. We could have at least built one near all those fancy bars the city is paying for. Maybe people would spend some of their money before and after the games in Kansas City instead of Johnson County.

Seems like all of Saul's arguments hinge around his ability to indulge his craving for alcohol. There is no shortage of alcohol in Kauffman Stadium. And Budweiser will even give your best pal a T-shirt if he volunteers to be your designated driver. So cheer up, Saul. Just get a tee totaler as a wing man, and you're good to go.

WE spent the money? What part of Jackson County do you live in? May I see your property tax receipt please?

But didn't you just say that the Cubs draw more fans than the Royals because the city is bigger? Why, then, do you think the Cubs, a last place team who last won the World Series during the Roosevelt administration, Teddy Roosevelt, nearly double up the first place Sox?

Here is Comiskey. Note that it is surrounded by parking lots.

http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/v.../Comiskey1.jpg

Here is Wrigley. Note that there are dozens of bars where a giant parking lot would logically be.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f3...ey/wrigley.jpg

That's a pic of Old Comiskey, Saul.

And the Cubs are by far more popular than the White Sox in Chicago.

What does property tax have to do with anything? Never mind. You don't even know what you're talking about.

I just wanted to see proof of your Jackson County residency. I wanted to see how you helped pay to build the stadium, and with the subsequent renovation.

The Cell was built across the street.

The Cubs are more popular because Cubs games are events what with the stadium being built in the middle of an entertainment district and all.

I don't live in Jackson County. I live in Johnson County. Since this was funded by property taxes, that makes a difference...

Oh wait...it was funded by a sales tax increase? You don't say...I guess you're just talking out your ass and hoping that nobody will notice.

Look at how much bigger that city is. Also if you want to talk about revenue,what about parking fees. Do those downtown stadiums get to charge for parking? If not that is a huge blow to the money coming in.

This whole thing is stupid anyways. Nobody has said it would be a bad idea to have a stadium downtown, just that they don't mind where it is currently at.

Just like I said earlier, here's another JoCo Bozo complaining about something that barely affects his wallet. I asked for property tax receipt to establish residency, I never said thats how the improvements were financed. Jackson County voted to renovate both Arrowhead and Kauffman Stadiums in 2007 following the passage of a 3/8-cent sales tax increase in a referendum. Notice that tax was passed in JACKSON County. Johnson County continues to freeload on what other parts of the city build to add to the communal good. Locals who live in city of KC south of the river, locals who live in Independence (my home town) or Sugar Creek, or Lee's Summit, or Blue Springs, or Buckner, or (your favorite suburb) Raytown, put their money where their mouth is and passed a tax to keep Kauffman Stadium looking good and viable as a MLB park. We buy our groceries, gas, clothes, hardware, most everything in JACKSON county. So STFD and STFU about who "paid" for this thing.

If there were no Cubs, the White Sox would be just as full as the what the Cubs currenty receive. And again, Chicago is so much bigger than KC, especially in what would be considered downtown, that you cannot even compare the two. And it isn't just about who works downtown, its about the amount of people living there as well that boosts the attendance.

Wrigley Field was built in the middle of an entertainment district?

In 1914?

LMAO

Am I missing something here, or did downtown Chicago used to be further north?

Actually, it was built "in the midst of one of north Chicago's large residential areas".

So, the suburbs basically.

Don't most people hop on a train to go to a Cubs game? It's not like they're walking across the street from work.

No, you talked about property tax receipts because you didn't know how the thing was funded.

Every pitch to the voters included emphasis on the fact that Johnson County residents would wind up paying for a large portion of the cost via cross state purchases. The rolling roof would have been primarily by out of state business purchases.

I spend plenty of money in Jackson County, and I owned a business there as well. In fact, if I were to guess, I would say that I've paid more in Jackson County sales tax than the average Jackson County resident since the measure passed.

So residential, or entertainment district?

Bottom line, you ****ed up using Wrigley as an example. Wrigley is an example of what KC should do with the K - develop/build entertainment around it.

Hell, STL isn't even that good of an example. There's one bar right next door, and that's it. Shannon's is several blocks away. Busch is basically surrounded by parking garages.

So what are they doing?

Developing and building an entertainment district behind the left field stands on Clark Street.

Yep. I was there last year, and the Addison Red Line station is always packed.

Wrigley is smack dab in the middle of a huge residential and fairly wealthy area. Plus, the history and the fact that Cubs fans are mostly drunks and reeruns (many times both).

US Cellular is in a shitty neighborhood (although better than it used to be) and is one of the cookie cutter stadiums from the early 90's. I actually prefer going to Sox games over Cubs game because i like to actually watch the game and be around fans of the game.

No. Even back then, that area was not the suburbs. Look at some old pictures of it. It was wedged into an area of commercial, industrial, and multi-family units.

You're no better than Keitzman. Talk shit about Jackson County, but you live in Johnson County. Keitzman even moved his radio station from Jackson County to Johnson County. And bully for you, you think you make more money than somebody that lives in Independence, or Lee's Summit, or Blue Springs. Got news for you pal, there's lots of money in Eastern Jackson County.

Johnson County never pays their fair share for anything. Look at the metro: Airport is in Platte County, NASCAR in Wyandotte County. Casinos and Worlds of Fun in Clay County. Stadiums, arenas, art museums, historical sites all in Jackson County.

What does Johnson County contribute? Private golf courses, gated communities and tax dodgers.

If you want a downtown stadium, I suggest you first move to Jackson County and then put your money where your mouth is.

First of all, I am not the one who said it. But I do agree with the notion that the higher the population the better attendance a team will achieve.

As to this example of yours, could it be not so much location as it is the city is predominantly Cubs fans? I mean, they came to be 18 years before the Sox. Just thinking out loud....

As to this whole bar attachment you have, that is why we simply will not agree on this. You want party at bars before and after the games. Where as I prefer to party in the lot tailgate style.

I've spent the majority of my life living in Missouri. I directly contributed to the re-gentrification of Kansas City when I built a condo on 29th and Cherry. My wife and kids are at Worlds of Fun right this second. I have no problem saying that I have paid more in Jackson County sales taxes than the average Jackson County resident has in the past several years.

I love Kansas City despite the fact that it has absolutely zero ability to use forward thinking. I spend my money at Royals games, at Power and Light, the Plaza, etc. My sales tax dollars go towards the renovation just the same as yours do.

Wrigley is not a bad example. The stadium is, and was, in an urban area. I'm not married to the idea of the stadium being "downtown" so much as I am having it where people actually work and/or live. In fact, I was a proponent of it being built up against Union Station in midtown.

You can't build/develop an entertainment district at Blue Ridge Cutoff and Raytown road because nobody lives there, and nobody works there. The Power and Light district works because it's within walking distance of where tens of thousands of people work every day.

It worked at Wrigley because thousands of people live right there.

If you build an entertainment district near Kaufman, people will go there when there are games, but nobody is driving to Raytown if they aren't going to a game. That's why there is nothing there now. It's not like nobody has ever had the idea of putting a bar/restaurant near the stadium. It simply doesn't make any economic sense.

The city could have used a little foresight and built a new stadium within walking distance or a short cab ride of the Sprint Center, P&L, Downtown, Midtown, Westport, the Plaza, etc. Instead, we publicly financed a nine figure "facelift", and for what? A marginally better stadium in the middle of nowhere.

How long before you acknowledge that the sports complex isn't in ****ing Raytown?

This seemed to get overlooked but I think it is worth mentioning again. A downtown stadium would deter a lot of people that currently go to games, and those I am speaking of is people with families and children. Do they really want to go downtown and be near all the bars and entertainment when all they really want is to see a game? Then have to leave that place in the dark at 10 o'clock at night? There is more people interested in attending games beyond just those whose only concern is a bar and/or walking distance.

Yeah I am not sure where Saul gets the idea that tailgating doesn't happen for more than 13 people at the games. Everytime I have ever been there always large groups of people cooking and playing tailgate games such as catch or bean bag toss.

And it will only increase if the franchise puts a winning product on the field.

The complex is technically in KC proper. You literally leave Raytown when you enter the main parking lot. Does that somehow make this

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x...s/1981/142.jpg

an exciting destination for 81 baseball games a year?

But that's the problem. KC is spread out pretty wide. The majority of Royals fans don't work/live within walking distance of downtown. Downtown doesn't have the huge concentration of population that would make it worth it to relocate a stadium there. If anything, the suburbs of KC are slowly moving further away from downtown. A centralized location isn't going to make any difference in attendance if the population isn't also centralized downtown.

Quote Saul: I've spent the majority of my life living in Missouri. I directly contributed to the re-gentrification of Kansas City when I built a condo on 29th and Cherry.

So, you're a slum lord? That's how you afford to live in JoCo?

My wife and kids are at Worlds of Fun right this second.

Are they cleaning up the park? I thought you said you were well to do? Why are you forcing your wife and kids to work in this heat?

I have no problem saying that I have paid more in Jackson County sales taxes than the average Jackson County resident has in the past several years.

Is that because liquor is cheaper in Missouri?

I love Kansas City despite the fact that it has absolutely zero ability to use forward thinking.

Yeah, we backwards jack asses haven't built a damn thing. Except the Sports Complex. Oh, and Sprint Center. Oh, and the P&L, Oh and the airport. And that big art gallery on the Plaza. But besides that, nothing. What a bunch of rubes!

I spend my money at Royals games, at Power and Light, the Plaza, etc. My sales tax dollars go towards the renovation just the same as yours do.

We appreciate all the tourist dollars we get from you. Thanks for visiting, come back and see us soon. Make sure to buy a lot of crap while you're here, OK? Bye Bye, now.

I get a kick out of every time I get to go. :shrug: