Money is everything.

If an offer had been made, then at least he could have said "We tried".

Pioli Fail.

They signed an older cheaper substitute. Routt was under contract right after free agency started.

They did not try to bring Carr back.

so what makes you think Bowe doesnt have the same mindset as Carr

where Bowes mind is made up on _____

This team not winning and playing like dog shit doesnt do us or the GM any favors in convincing guys to stay either.

So the excuse next season will be "Oh not Pioli's fault Bowe wanted to leave anyway!"

No, every time we lose our only good homegrown talent thats replaced by average vets or drafted role players IT IS PIOLIS FAULT 100%

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if Pioli wanted Carr to remain a KC Chief, it could have happened.
money talks bullshit walks.

so youre saying its Pioli's fault

and anyone else that leaves next offseason is also Pioli's fault

I am glad we can agree on the one constant involved here.

Before he was tendered .... yes, I agree.

By the end of the season the Cowboys needed a CB. We should have had him re-signed long before that.

Tendered? Wha?

I agree with that. I also believe that the trash that re-signs is Pioli's fault. Any way you look at it it's Pioli's fault.

i'm saying Pioli signed Routt early on so Carr could leave and he could save Clark some money, and **** the fans.

Carr was tendered for a first round pick just before training camp last season. When Pioli did this, negociations were off until after the season. A team could have traded for Carr but would have had to give a first round pick. He never should have been tendered. He should have gotten a contract.

Right now Belcher has a 2nd round tender . He will probably walk too.

A tender is sort of like a mini tag....

Honestly, I think that's the point that Babb has been trying to make, Mr. mcaj22.

Pioli was hired to "get things right". He was not hired to screw around with bad decisions on HCs or make head-scratching, first-round draft picks.

In return for his enormous salary, free rein, and all the accoutrement associated with the position of GM, comes responsibility. And it isn't the type of responsibility you can switch on or off. Or, the kind you can selectively apply depending on the situation or the particular player or the particular deal.

He is ultimately responsible for every damn thing that happens in this organization ... from the candy wrappers in the stairwell to the end-of-season records.

So, yes. Carr's leaving rests on Pioli's shoulders to the extent that, he made no effort to retain him ... so far as we know. And, in the process, broke up a cornerback tandem which was, arguably, developing into one of the best in the league.

FAX

Bullshit.

And it's spelled negotiations. This is second time I've seen you misspell the word.

Carr's agent and Pioli could have negotiated a contract, which Carr could have signed the minute the season was over.

It didn't happen.

LMAO

The reason he was tendered was so that he wouldn't go anywhere and the Chiefs could continue to negotiate. He was absolutely right to give him the First Round Tender, otherwise, he could have walked without ANY compensation.

JFC.

Good. He ****ing sucks ass. It's awesome that the Chiefs continue to pass on ILBer's. Daryl Washington, anyone?


No, it's not.

We aren't who Pioli thinks we are.

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well Pioli has 1 get out of jail free card this offseason (franchise) tag for essentially 3 guys: Dorsey, Albert, Bowe

2 of them are guaranteed to walk. And really there is no excuse for that.

I know people dont care about Dorsey, but lets be honest. There is nothing behind Dorsey thats of any talent. And do you really want Dorsey to walk and opening the chance that Pioli might draft his REPLACEMENT IN THE FIRST ROUND OF THE DRAFT. Because this place will explode if we take another d-lineman in the first round. And that very well be the case.

But yea. Bowe, Albert, Dorsey > Baldwin, Stephenson, whoever the **** would play for Dorsey lets just say Poe.

There is a gigantic backwards step and talent drop off of "Pioli's picks (guys)" as replacements to Herms.

It's an awful theory to consider. And Pioli has done a terrible job at it in four years

A lot of good points ...

For my part, it isn't that I don't care about Dorsey, it's that I think he's being asked to do something incompatible with his natural ability and instincts. Even so, you're right about the dropoff behind him.

But, when you step back and examine this overall situation ... and not just focus on the individual players ... it begins to look something like this; players don't want to be here.

Gonzo didn't want to be here. Carr didn't want to be here. Bowe doesn't want to be here. DJ almost quit the game a couple years back. On and on ...

That, my friend, is serious. Players aren't all the dumb jocks people might make them out to be. They understand the playbook of life as well as anyone their age. And they must realize that this organization is broken. Have any of these guys experienced the kind of extreme paranoia and secrecy surrounding this team? Or, have they ever been exposed to this degree of utter dysfunction? I doubt it.

When you have a team that is the home of last resort for NFL players, you have no reason to be optimistic about anything.

FAX

Who said Pioli never offered him a contract?

Iirc it was in the media that they had a standing offer for Carr that was around 7 million per year.

Maybe you meant we didn't offer to match the Dallas offer.

I'm not gonna go digging for a link though, as I'm not 100% but I do remember it being discussed.

That wouldn't have even came close to Washingtons offer.

They gave up #6 and #38 as well as the next two first rounders and change.

Even if we offered the whole 2012 draft AND 2013 draft...Washingtons offer was still worth more.

FTR both Pioli AND RAC said at the scouting combine that RG3 is the guy you "go up and get"

Pioli even said he would let RG3 marry his daughter.

Even Reshard Langford talked about KC being poorly run compared to the Lions.

Hey, Mr. BossChief!!

Below is an excerpted from a March, 2012 Fox Sports article. I think this is a pretty accurate analysis of what happened with Carr..

******

The Chiefs have developed a credibility problem with their fans - team chairman Clark Hunt and general manager Scott Pioli say one thing, but their actions say another.

Never was the more evident than in the club's failure to re-sign cornerback Brandon Carr. Despite public assurances that they wanted Carr, a four-year starter who was coming off his best season to stay in Kansas City, they were unable to keep him from reaching free agency, and when he did they stepped back and were not a factor as Carr found a new home in Dallas after the Cowboys agreed to a five-year, $50.1 million contract.

That average payout of $10 million per season was much too rich for the taste of the Chiefs. It's not because they didn't have the cap room or cash dollars. They began the free-agency period with more than $30 million in cap space. Because they've not spent a lot of money on their payroll the past three seasons, there's no question the team has the cash stash to make things happen.

Money was the only reason that Carr was looking for a new home. The former fifth-round draft choice has grown into one of the AFC's better cover cornerbacks. The key thing is he's always available, having started all 64 games he's played since joining the Chiefs in 2008. At 26, he's just now coming into his prime seasons.

Plus, Carr wanted to stay in Kansas City. He came into the NFL with a very talented draft class for the Chiefs in '08, joining the team with defensive end Glenn Dorsey, cornerback Brandon Flowers, tackle Branden Albert and running back Jamaal Charles.

http://www.foxsportskansascity.com/0...blockID=690252

****

Now, Babb and Mellinger (sp?) are both reporting that the reason Pioli didn't want to pay for Carr's services was to avoid upsetting Flowers. That is a football man's rationale?

FAX

If true, $7 million is an insult.

Fine, then throw in the 2014 first rounder. I don't care to debate value. The point is that Pioli should have given up the ****ing farm to draft RGIII.

I couldn't care less about some "mythical" first round lineman that would somehow save the day.

Thanks. One thing I don't understand about the NFL is the money/business side and how contracts effect the cap etc.

So another words, you can spend out the ass on signing bonuses, as long as the actual contract is under the league mandated cap.

Essentially, yes. I haven't studied the new CBA much and am unclear what changes will be made going forward ... or when those changes take effect, but that is how it has worked in the past.

All football players are interested in are the "guaranteed dollars" (and rightfully so) which are typically structured as signing bonuses. The only way the league could retain a salary cap and signing bonuses was to include the bonus as part of the overall contract and amortize the amount throughout the term of the deal.

To be honest, it's really more of an accounting trick than anything else.

FAX

The "guaranteed" money isn't really guaranteed. Roster bonuses are more en vogue, as they are "guaranteed" money for that year, but you can get out from under the contract easier.

It looks to me like you just researched some of this which is a good thing. There is no reason to be rude man. I treated you with respect in my reply. However, I didn't explain the tender process in detail.

Maybe the most important thing that is being left out is that after he was tendered, we could only offer him up to 120% of his tender salary the following year (2012). This is the only offer we could make before free agency began and he wasn't going to take that. The new cba is designed to set players free.

Pioli blew it when we tendered him.

http://www.cincyjungle.com/2012/2/15...ive-bargaining

My question is, will Pioli be saying that we can turn around after an 0-3 start? How about 0-4 after San Diego gets revenge for The Worst Day Evah.

How about going to Tampa Bay? There's absolutely, positively, without a question, ZERO reason to think we will or even CAN win any of those games.

Your link is purely about unrestricted free agents. Carr was a restricted free agent going into the 2011 season. He became an unrestricted free agent following the 2011 season.

Dallas started their negotiations with Carr at 7 million per year, too.

That was reported in Dallas news multiple times and after Carr signed there, he said that the Jets (Revis and Carr would have been sick with Cro in the nickel role) and two other teams were in it, but that he never wanted to leave Dallas because that's where he wanted to play since he was a kid.

Those teams drove the price from 7/yr to over 10/yr.

Shortly after he signed, Jerry Jones said he "overpaid" for Carr before retracting and changing his wording to "paid market value".



I was in the group that wanted to sell the farm.

I was merely pointing out that that it was gonna take a lot more than you suggested.

After the Bills game, I realized that we may well not win a game before the bye. If we continue to play the way we've been playing, we're likely to be swept by the West.

But for now, what can Pioli say? He's done the "its' a process" schtick and his "process" is, apparently, some sort of high-speed railway to hell and gone.

I suppose after we're 0 and 5 or something, he'll start talking about how Haley screwed the team up so badly it will require many years to repair ... something like that.

FAX

My advice? Start drinking. Heavily.

I don't see where Dane was rude. Explain Dumbass!

Cassel will get benched at halftime of the Bucs game.

Bob is kinda like Cassel at this point.

Dane has ran a couple well orchestrated blitzes on him and now he is seeing phantom pressure.

i agree,
if he dont get injured before the half.

The marginal difference between Carr and Routt is not in the top 50 Chiefs problems right now. Stop being emotional twits because you lost a favorite toy. Try to focus. The problem is Cassel, Pioli, Romeo.

LMAO

You're an idiot.

That's cool. I don't really care to argue or discuss this subject because what's done is done.

The bottom line is that had the Chiefs stepped up to the plate, Carr would be a Chief.

They didn't. End of story.

The point isn't Carr vs. Routt, it's writing a pair of $25 million dollar checks in the form of guaranteed money to both Carr & Bowe.

The mere fact that this didn't happen proves that Clark Hunt is cheap, regardless of "cash spent".

I don't know if this is hugely off-topic or not, but it doesn't seem like we have much of an Arrowhead advantage anymore. Certainly not like we used to. Since I got the Sunday Ticket I've been watching a lot of other games and it seems almost every other team playing at home have louder crowds. I'm talking about the last few years. I guess our fans are just getting fed up?

Not paying Carr and finding an almost-as-good replacement for cheaper is exactly what a good GM is supposed to do. Now you can bitch all day about not spending that money on something better - but you can't tie up that much money in your secondary.

First off, there's no such thing as the salary cap. It's a guide, not a hard cap.

Secondly, drafting and developing solid to great players is the cornerstone to becoming and sustaining great franchises. Letting Carr walk just proved that money is more important that team building.

Especially when Matt Cassel and his $63 million dollar contract is still in town.

He doesn't know what he doesn't know.

I never thought it would be possible for the Chiefs to hire a GM who had his head FURTHER up his ass than Carl Peterson did his last 5 seasons here, but Pioli takes the shit cake.

If what Teicher says is true, and Pioli does not draft a quarterback next season, Arrowhead will be a ****ing ghost town.

The good news is, if Clark is a dumbass and retains Pioli for year 5, our non-division opponents for next year:

Washington
Philadelphia
Houston
Dallas
New York
Indianapolis
Tennessee
Jacksonville

He will be exposed two years in a row as an utter ****ing imbecile.

Shit, maybe the Titans, Jags and Colts can improve enough and really help us out.

Everyone needs to face the facts, we are an extremely poor man's version of the Dallas Cowboys, without the capable qb

In other words, we need our defense to play solid and Cassel to shit the bed.


17-6 losses every week would do it

Colts won't be an automatic win either

No game is an automatic W or L. Do you people learn nothing watching this league over the years?

Somebody tell the Patriots that games against the NFC West don't count...

I'm through listening to Scott Pioli.

Exactly! They had the cash to spend. But they chose to field a lesser quality player in order to save money. While ignoring that same mindset with regards to players Pioli hand picked.

That's about all you need to see to identify the priorities of this team...

The Titans and the Colts will, but as long as our GM is still there we won't be doing shit either. If Gene Smith is fired after this season then yes there will be a very noticeable improvement.

So far, Routt hasn't been bad at all.

I'm not even sure it's even a downgrade at all.

ROFL

It's a little difficult to tell since the defense looks like 11 monkeys in a washing machine.

FAX

:thumb:

Pioli thinks the roster is good enough.

Good enough.

Two words I never want to hear from the mouth of the GM of a professional sports team.

Good enough equals doing the bare-bones minimum.

Good enough equals adequate.

Good enough equals mediocre.

Good enough equals nearly 20 years without a playoff win.



I played organized football from Age 7 through HS. Was offered to play small college ball but an injury derailed that opportunity.

I LOVE FOOTBALL. Always have.

But this franchise is draining my love for the game out of me.

And that pisses me off.

Pioli needs to contract AIDS as soon as possible.

That's a truly sad tale of woe and wretched misery, Mr. OnTheWarpath58.

Perhaps it's best if you remember that it's your choice to be a Chiefs fan and get a clue.

In other news, I too am pretty damn disgusted with this catastrophic flop of a season so far. Of all the years of suck, this year may be the worst of all on account of the fact that I had hope Clark would demonstrate a competitive spirit and a legitimate desire to succeed with this team. That hope was bolstered when he canned Carl. Now? ... now, I'm just a forlorn and dejected shell of a fan seeking solace in making tittah puppets and margaritas.

FAX

Side note, Mr. FAX, but if these NHL assclowns get their shit together and decide to have a season, I plan to come down and see you in NashVegas. Seems our Blues and your Preds have developed a nice little rivalry.

Why exactly the **** not? It's not like we're spending it on pass-rushers, receivers, LBs that can cover, or a real QB. Based on how bad our D has looked, more money should have definitely been spent in the secondary.

We have a great facility right downtown. You'll have a good time. Just avoid the girl who works the corner of Broadway and 5th and you'll do fine.

FAX

You can't tie up that much money in your secondary, (in a passing league) but you sure as hell can tie up that kind of cake with your non-pass-rushing DE's.

Sincerely,

Scott Pioli

ROFLROFLROFL

.


Here it is in a nutshell... This is another angle with an explanation that is even easier to understand. There were several rules with Carr's tag.


Dwayne Bowe could not be franchised unless we allowed Carr to hit the open market. Period. There's a rule in the NFL that requires a player hit UFA status if he is given a raise in base salary of more than 30% from one season to the next. When the Chiefs gave him the one-year restricted tender (increasing his base salary from around 400K to 2.6mil), Carr was instantly guaranteed to hit the open market unless franchised.

The only course of action Pioli could take to retain both players was to re-sign Bowe and franchise Carr...

here's the official link... http://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com/...-2011-2020.pdf


Is that a better explanation?

There is nothing special about the Chiefs. Absolutely nothing.0-2 is the closest they are going to get to .500 all season.

or your non passing quarterback

With all due respect, Dane is incorrect and I think you know it. Here's an old thread from this website of the same thing I was talking about.

You are posting in the thread Boss. We couldn't prevent Carr from becoming a UFA without tagging him.

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showt...253308&page=15

Edit:

Also, the answer is yes to your next question. The 30% rule from the old CBA applied last August. With the new CBA you can't go over 30% in the first place...

Sounds like he is high as hell.

:facepalm:

How about a big healthy dose of shut the **** up?

LMAO

Dane's back and has a new n00b to play with.







Not that he's playing at all.
Will be fun to watch.
I wonder when BBob will explode with anger,

damn depressing to read that.

I understand how you feel.

I told my buddy the other day everyone should have been fired Sunday night.

Everyone.

You know me. Think how far they have driven this guy.
Posted via Mobile Device

Fat Scott and Romeo deflecting blame and putting it all on the players.

I am sure that is going over well in the locker room.

Quite a leadership group Clark has assembled at One Arrowhead Drive.

800 metric tons of gutless trash.

Carr was going to be an unrestricted free agent regardless of his salary. He was at the end of his rookie contract.

I don't even know what point you think you're making.

The first round tender at the end of the 2010 season only limits other teams' actions in signing Carr. It says they are allowed to sign him but they would forfeit a 1st round pick to KC. That is what the "restricted" part of being a RFA means. It has no bearing on what KC can do in terms of negotiating a new contract. That tender does nothing but protect KC's interests. It's all win.

At the end of 2011 season, Carr became an UFA. At that point, he's free game to the highest bidder or the team he wants to go to. Obviously KC can only use one franchise tag so they would have had to sign Bowe or Carr, and tag the other.

You don't know what you're talking about, and I don't think you even know what you're trying to talk about.

trash talkin trash .....

It's.

A.






Process.




-Scott

The implication of this post would be that Scott Pioli went to Clark Hunt and said "Sup Clark, I got DBowe and Carr all set to go, just need your ol' John Hancock on the checks here". And Clark balked.

Do you really think that's how it went? Because I don't think the owner who's been spending more than 20% over the cap two years in a row is suddenly going to balk at keeping two of his drafted, homegrown players.

I'd say it's far more likely that Pioli sees signing guys to under-market deals as some sort of badge of honor. If he had to negotiate a contract like Carr's with Dallas, he'd feel like less of a man and probably wouldn't be able to get an erection.

Yes, I do. The Hunt family has been notoriously cheap. Couple that with the $125 million that Hunt shelled out personally for Arrowhead upgrades and I think he was sick of dolling out cash.

If not, and I'm wrong, he's the biggest ****ing pussy owner of all time. What idiot owner wouldn't want to sign his homegrown talent?

What you're saying Clark won't do, give $25M guaranteed to Carr and Bowe, he just did a year ago with Hali and Flowers. And the team payroll has been among the highest in the league two years running.

You can say "I don't care how much money he spends, he's still cheap" as much as you want, but it's starting to look a little silly.

If you want to, though, we can certainly criticize Clark for not going "What? **** that. Get him signed." when Pioli presumably told him that keeping Carr wasn't the right move for the team.

I said it during the Bowe/Carr crap and it's true.

Clark hired a guy who runs a team with the mindset of "don't pay a talented guy if you don't think you have to, even if he deserves it."

They're perfect for each other.

Payroll doesn't mean dick. It's all about the guaranteed signing bonuses.

It's clear that Clark Hunt didn't want to shell out the $50 million or so necessary to re-sign two home grown players.

Otherwise, they would have been signed. Period. End of story.

And stop with the ****ing payroll bullshit.