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Fish 10-25-2012 01:44 PM
This thread could use some Science.....

First off... most of the "Supplements" available do not do what you think they do. Supplements by and large are simply snake oil meant to take your money while giving you the psychologically pleasing feeling of helping yourself. There are some things for sure that actually have affects on your body that make it worth it, as you'll see from the graphic below.

I know there will be many posts saying BS, it worked for me and this guy I know. But generally all these ingredients have been studied to the point that we can prove exactly what it does and doesn't do. If you're convinced it's working for you, then great. That feeling of "Something is making me feel better" is powerful in its own right. Just know that anything labeled "Supplement" has no proof of whatever claim it makes. If there were any proof, it wouldn't need to be labeled as a supplement. And remember that supplements themselves are the least efficient way to introduce those ingredients into your body. Supplements generally are drastically less effective than ingesting actual foods containing those ingredients. Taking a Vitamin C pill is infinitely less effective than eating a couple oranges, etc. Whenever possible, go for the source of whatever ingredient you're wanting.

Here's a very handy graph, showing where the majority of supplements stack up. Note the "Worth it" line. Essentially everything under that isn't worth the money spent on the product. This graphic is dynamically updated and pulls info from the giant table of documentation at the link at the bottom of this post.

Unfortunately, the 3 ingredients in ZMA aren't even over the "Worth it" line.

http://imageshack.us/a/img4/6811/sna...ements956b.png

And here's the link with all the information used to construct this: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...hl=en_GB#gid=0

That includes links to case studies and actual scientific information from sources that are not trying to sell you what they're recommending.

Bump 10-25-2012 01:49 PM
when you wake up, make sure to take your 5 hour energy, every day. Just like the commercials say.

Brock 10-25-2012 01:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KC Fish (Post 9048864)

That includes links to case studies and actual scientific information from sources that are not trying to sell you what they're recommending.
They have creatine listed as a "cognition" supplement.

???

loochy 10-25-2012 02:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KC Fish (Post 9048864)
This thread could use some Science.....

First off... most of the "Supplements" available do not do what you think they do. Supplements by and large are simply snake oil meant to take your money while giving you the psychologically pleasing feeling of helping yourself. There are some things for sure that actually have affects on your body that make it worth it, as you'll see from the graphic below.

I know there will be many posts saying BS, it worked for me and this guy I know. But generally all these ingredients have been studied to the point that we can prove exactly what it does and doesn't do. If you're convinced it's working for you, then great. That feeling of "Something is making me feel better" is powerful in its own right. Just know that anything labeled "Supplement" has no proof of whatever claim it makes. If there were any proof, it wouldn't need to be labeled as a supplement. And remember that supplements themselves are the least efficient way to introduce those ingredients into your body. Supplements generally are drastically less effective than ingesting actual foods containing those ingredients. Taking a Vitamin C pill is infinitely less effective than eating a couple oranges, etc. Whenever possible, go for the source of whatever ingredient you're wanting.

Here's a very handy graph, showing where the majority of supplements stack up. Note the "Worth it" line. Essentially everything under that isn't worth the money spent on the product. This graphic is dynamically updated and pulls info from the giant table of documentation at the link at the bottom of this post.

Unfortunately, the 3 ingredients in ZMA aren't even over the "Worth it" line.

http://imageshack.us/a/img4/6811/sna...ements956b.png

And here's the link with all the information used to construct this: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...hl=en_GB#gid=0

That includes links to case studies and actual scientific information from sources that are not trying to sell you what they're recommending.
Yeah, because you don't need vitamins? :rolleyes: wtf

Fish 10-25-2012 02:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brock (Post 9048920)
They have creatine listed as a "cognition" supplement.

???
There's lots of misinformation on Creatine. It's generally sold for athletic and endurance purposes, but actually there's less proof of that effect than all the other researched uses for Creatine.

Quote:
Creatine is thought to improve strength, increase lean muscle mass, and help the muscles recover more quickly during exercise. This muscular boost may help athletes achieve bursts of speed and energy, especially during short bouts of high-intensity activities such as weight lifting or sprinting. However, scientific research on creatine has been mixed. Although some studies have found that it does help improve performance during short periods of athletic activity, there is no evidence that creatine helps with endurance sports. Research also shows that not everyone's muscles respond to creatine; some people who use it see no benefit.

Despite the popularity of creatine among young people, there has been very little research conducted in children under age 18. Of those studies, a few have suggested a positive effect but the overall evidence is inconclusive.

Just because creatine is natural, doesn't necessarily mean that it is safe. Supplements aren't held to the same standards by the FDA as medications, which means you can't always know exactly what's in your supplement, or in what amounts.

Researchers still don't know the long-term effects of taking creatine supplements, especially in young people. Adolescents who take creatine often do so without their doctor's advice, which can cause them to take more than the recommended dose.

Although most healthy people can take it with no problem, creatine can, in rare cases, have adverse effects, particularly when used in excess. Side effects can include:

Weight gain
Anxiety
Breathing difficulty
Diarrhea
Fatigue
Fever
Headache
Kidney problems
Nausea, vomiting
Rash
Stomach upset

Certain drugs, including diabetes medications, acetaminophen, and diuretics, can have dangerous interactions with creatine. Taking the stimulants caffeine and ephedra with creatine can increase the risk of side effects.
http://men.webmd.com/creatine

Fish 10-25-2012 02:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by loochy (Post 9048943)
Yeah, because you don't need vitamins? :rolleyes: wtf
Who said you don't need vitamins?

You don't need vitamin supplements. You certainly need vitamins. And you get them from the foods you eat. Vitamin supplements are completely unnecessary for the most part.

vailpass 10-25-2012 02:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aspengc8 (Post 9047648)
Sleep is overrated for recovery. Food quantity/quality is much more important. I don't think I've had more than 5hr sleep/night since my daughter was born 9 months ago, and I still hit PR's. Shit I had 2 hours sleep last week and drove upstate with a buddy for a meet and still hit a 1200 total.
Huh?

Brock 10-25-2012 02:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KC Fish (Post 9048976)
There's lots of misinformation on Creatine. It's generally sold for athletic and endurance purposes, but actually there's less proof of that effect than all the other researched uses for Creatine.
Uh...leaving aside my own experience with creatine, there is a metric ton of study that shows a very definite benefit to athletic performance. For distance runners? I don't know. For building lean muscle mass? Absolutely. Without question.

Buck 10-25-2012 02:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KC Fish (Post 9048864)
This thread could use some Science.....

First off... most of the "Supplements" available do not do what you think they do. Supplements by and large are simply snake oil meant to take your money while giving you the psychologically pleasing feeling of helping yourself. There are some things for sure that actually have affects on your body that make it worth it, as you'll see from the graphic below.

I know there will be many posts saying BS, it worked for me and this guy I know. But generally all these ingredients have been studied to the point that we can prove exactly what it does and doesn't do. If you're convinced it's working for you, then great. That feeling of "Something is making me feel better" is powerful in its own right. Just know that anything labeled "Supplement" has no proof of whatever claim it makes. If there were any proof, it wouldn't need to be labeled as a supplement. And remember that supplements themselves are the least efficient way to introduce those ingredients into your body. Supplements generally are drastically less effective than ingesting actual foods containing those ingredients. Taking a Vitamin C pill is infinitely less effective than eating a couple oranges, etc. Whenever possible, go for the source of whatever ingredient you're wanting.

Here's a very handy graph, showing where the majority of supplements stack up. Note the "Worth it" line. Essentially everything under that isn't worth the money spent on the product. This graphic is dynamically updated and pulls info from the giant table of documentation at the link at the bottom of this post.

Unfortunately, the 3 ingredients in ZMA aren't even over the "Worth it" line.

http://imageshack.us/a/img4/6811/sna...ements956b.png

And here's the link with all the information used to construct this: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...hl=en_GB#gid=0

That includes links to case studies and actual scientific information from sources that are not trying to sell you what they're recommending.
Yes. This used select studies to create the chart. I'm sure you could create a chart with everything flipped if you found the right studies.

First hand though, ZMA has made me feel better than pretty much any other supplement. That's pretty much all I can go off of.

You probably don't even like trains.

FAX 10-25-2012 02:31 PM
I don't see why anybody would want to eat tar.

FAX

TheGuardian 10-25-2012 02:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KC Fish (Post 9048864)
This thread could use some Science.....

First off... most of the "Supplements" available do not do what you think they do. Supplements by and large are simply snake oil meant to take your money while giving you the psychologically pleasing feeling of helping yourself. There are some things for sure that actually have affects on your body that make it worth it, as you'll see from the graphic below.

I know there will be many posts saying BS, it worked for me and this guy I know. But generally all these ingredients have been studied to the point that we can prove exactly what it does and doesn't do. If you're convinced it's working for you, then great. That feeling of "Something is making me feel better" is powerful in its own right. Just know that anything labeled "Supplement" has no proof of whatever claim it makes. If there were any proof, it wouldn't need to be labeled as a supplement. And remember that supplements themselves are the least efficient way to introduce those ingredients into your body. Supplements generally are drastically less effective than ingesting actual foods containing those ingredients. Taking a Vitamin C pill is infinitely less effective than eating a couple oranges, etc. Whenever possible, go for the source of whatever ingredient you're wanting.

Here's a very handy graph, showing where the majority of supplements stack up. Note the "Worth it" line. Essentially everything under that isn't worth the money spent on the product. This graphic is dynamically updated and pulls info from the giant table of documentation at the link at the bottom of this post.

Unfortunately, the 3 ingredients in ZMA aren't even over the "Worth it" line.

http://imageshack.us/a/img4/6811/sna...ements956b.png

And here's the link with all the information used to construct this: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...hl=en_GB#gid=0

That includes links to case studies and actual scientific information from sources that are not trying to sell you what they're recommending.
I already provided a link that had studies done as well that proved a supplement like zinc does have helpful benefits.

And this from a guy that doesn't take supplements or believe in them for the most part.

BigCatDaddy 10-25-2012 02:41 PM
It depends on what what you are using them for. Here is a study showing Vitamin A > Steroids in kids that are short and late puberty bloomers. He said Vit A is basically worthless.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15163330

Vitamin A and iron supplementation is as efficient as hormonal therapy in constitutionally delayed children.
Zadik Z, Sinai T, Zung A, Reifen R.
SourcePediatric Endocrine Unit, Kaplan Medical Center, Rehovot, Israel. zvivadik@012.net.il

Abstract
OBJECTIVE: To assess the effect of nutritional supplementation on growth and puberty in constitutionally delayed children.

PATIENTS: One hundred and two boys, 13.6-15.5 years of age, who were referred because of short stature and delayed puberty.

METHODS: The boys were randomly allocated to one of the following treatment groups: oxandrolone therapy, 5 mg/day for 6 months (n = 15), testosterone depot, 100 mg monthly for 3 months (n = 15) or for 6 months (n = 20), nutritional programme (n = 17), oxandrolone and nutritional programme (n = 15) or passive observation (n = 20). Boys in the nutritional programmes received 12 mg/day iron and 6000 IU/week of vitamin A. Outcome measurements were of height, weight, pubertal signs, dietary intake, serum vitamin A, iron, GH and IGF-1.

RESULTS: Six months of vitamin A supplementation induced growth acceleration similar to that seen in the oxandrolone- and testosterone-treated children, and significantly greater than in the observation group (9.3 +/- 2.9 vs. 4.0 +/- 0.9 crn/yr, P < 0.001). Whereas in the vitamin A-supplemented group, puberty (increase in testicular volume >/= 12 ml) was induced within 12 months. In all testosterone-treated patients, pubic hair was noted within 3 months and a testicular volume of >/= 12 ml was observed 9-12 months after the initiation of therapy. No pubertal signs were noted in the observation group during this time.

CONCLUSIONS: Subnormal vitamin A intake is one of the aetiological factors in delayed pubertal maturation. Supplementation of both vitamin A and iron to normal constitutionally delayed children with subnormal vitamin A intake is as efficacious as hormonal therapy in the induction of growth and puberty.

saphojunkie 10-25-2012 02:48 PM
Zima puts you to sleep. After, like, 12 of them.

Hammock Parties 10-25-2012 02:50 PM
Also increases the size of your loads.

big nasty kcnut 10-25-2012 02:52 PM
Ever had a dream about a girl giving you a bj and waking up and felt like she did it. I had a dream like that one night.

Fish 10-25-2012 02:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGuardian (Post 9049053)
I already provided a link that had studies done as well that proved a supplement like zinc does have helpful benefits.

And this from a guy that doesn't take supplements or believe in them for the most part.
You must not have looked at the studies then....

http://www.charlespoliquin.com/Blog/...Deficient.aspx

The link you posted references 2 studies.

Here's the first:

Quote:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21744023

Abstract
Zinc and selenium are essential minerals and have roles for more than 300 metabolic reactions in the body. The purpose of this study was to investigate how exhaustive exercise affects testosterone levels and plasma lactate in cyclists who were supplemented with oral zinc and selenium for 4 weeks. For this reason, 32 male road cyclists were selected equally to four groups: PL group, placebo; Zn group, zinc supplement (30 mg/day); Se group, selenium supplement (200 μg/day); and Zn-Se group, zinc-selenium supplement. After treatment, free, total testosterone, and lactate levels of subjects were determined before and after exhaustive exercise. Resting total, free testosterone, and lactate levels did not differ significantly between groups, and were increased by exercise (P > 0.05). Serum total testosterone levels in Zn group were higher than in Se group after exercise (P < 0.05). Serum-free testosterone levels in the Zn group were higher than the other groups (P < 0.05).There was an insignificant difference between levels of lactate in the four groups after exercise (P > 0.05). The results showed that 4-week simultaneous and separately zinc and selenium supplementation had no significant effect on resting testosterone and lactate levels of subjects who consume a zinc and selenium sufficient diet. It might be possible that the effect of zinc supplementation on free testosterone depends on exercise.
So... for one, the study group only contained 32 people. And the results showed that simply taking Zinc and Selenium supplements had no significant effect. They attributed the differences to exercise, and not Zinc. And even so, the differences are so small that it's not really very conclusive.

It essentially says that taking the supplements by themselves had zero effect. And taking the supplements while exercising had a very small effect, but it might be simply because of the exercise.

The second study:

Quote:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21671089

Abstract
Testosterone deficiency is associated with late-onset hypogonadism. Micronutrients including copper (Cu) and zinc (Zn) influence testosterone synthesis. The association between micronutrient concentrations in hair tissue and serum testosterone was studied in Korean men. The subjects were 88 men 40-60 years of age who visited the health promotion center and an outpatient clinic of family medicine at a university hospital from March 2006 to February 2008. Population sociological features of the subjects were acquired by self-administered surveys and interview, height and weight were measured, serum total testosterone was determined in the morning, and Cu and Zn were quantified from hair tissue collected in the morning. Subjects with normal testosterone group had a significantly higher Zn level compared to low testosterone group (P = 0.003). Significant negative correlations were evident between total testosterone and Cu level (r = -0.252, P = 0.022), and the Cu/Zn ratio (r = -0.288, P = 0.008). Normal testosterone is associated with a higher Zn level. Decreased serum testosterone is significantly associated with a high level of Cu and elevated Cu/Zn ratio in hair tissue.
This study is investigating hypogonadism in Korean men aged 40-60. Hypogonadism is a lack of hormones. Specifically in this case, testosterone. It's a little baffling as to how this study could be referenced to support Zinc intake affecting testosterone. All this study shows is that when testosterone levels are low, so are Zinc levels. It doesn't show that Zinc increases testosterone at all. It only describes the inverse relationship. When testosterone levels drop, so do Zinc levels. That's doesn't do any good in proving the opposite though.

This happens a lot. People will reference some silly study, and not bother to actually apply what the study says to the statement they're making.

Fish 10-25-2012 03:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buck (Post 9049047)
Yes. This used select studies to create the chart. I'm sure you could create a chart with everything flipped if you found the right studies.

First hand though, ZMA has made me feel better than pretty much any other supplement. That's pretty much all I can go off of.

You probably don't even like trains.
No, for the most part this uses studies from NCBI, The National Center for Biotechnology Information, and NLM the US National Library of Medicine. Which I believe is the most unbiased and truthful sources possible for this kind of info.

**** trains.

Buck 10-25-2012 03:13 PM
Choo choo mother****er.

seclark 10-25-2012 03:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by big nasty kcnut (Post 9049122)
Ever had a dream about a girl giving you a bj and waking up and felt like she did it. I had a dream like that one night.
that's called a "wet dream" nut. i don't think you need suppliments for that. just puberty.
sec

TheGuardian 10-25-2012 03:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KC Fish (Post 9049137)

It essentially says that taking the supplements by themselves had zero effect. And taking the supplements while exercising had a very small effect, but it might be simply because of the exercise.
Actually it reads......

"It might be possible that the effect of zinc supplementation on free testosterone depends on exercise."

SO it might be, or it might not be.


Quote:

This study is investigating hypogonadism in Korean men aged 40-60. Hypogonadism is a lack of hormones. Specifically in this case, testosterone. It's a little baffling as to how this study could be referenced to support Zinc intake affecting testosterone. All this study shows is that when testosterone levels are low, so are Zinc levels. It doesn't show that Zinc increases testosterone at all. It only describes the inverse relationship. When testosterone levels drop, so do Zinc levels. That's doesn't do any good in proving the opposite though.

This happens a lot. People will reference some silly study, and not bother to actually apply what the study says to the statement they're making.

Apparently you didn't want to quote that study.

Here you go.....

Quote:
Subjects with normal testosterone group had a significantly higher Zn level compared to low testosterone group.

Normal testosterone is associated with a higher Zn level. Decreased serum testosterone is significantly associated with a high level of Cu and elevated Cu/Zn ratio in hair tissue.
Which is what I have said all along. If you are low in zinc you might also be low in natural test, or vice versa. So yeah, I'm right.

loochy 10-25-2012 03:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by seclark (Post 9049191)
that's called a "wet dream" nut. i don't think you need suppliments for that. just puberty.
sec
ROFL

Fish 10-25-2012 03:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGuardian (Post 9049199)
Actually it reads......

"It might be possible that the effect of zinc supplementation on free testosterone depends on exercise."

SO it might be, or it might not be.





Apparently you didn't want to quote that study.

Here you go.....



Which is what I have said all along. If you are low in zinc you might also be low in natural test, or vice versa. So yeah, I'm right.
Might be. Might not be.... OK, but that's not really conclusive is it?

And you are confusing the direction of correlation in the second study. It's saying that normal testosterone is associated with higher Zinc levels. Which is true. The title of the link you posted reads: "Tip 151: Take Zinc and Increase Testosterone Levels..." But that's not what the second study shows at all. The study researched how testosterone levels affected Cu and Zn levels, not how Zn and Cu levels affect testosterone. The difference and direction is important. And besides that, testing Cu and Zn levels in the hair of testosterone deficient old Koreans isn't exactly the best test base for what we're talking about here.

BIG_DADDY 10-25-2012 03:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGuardian (Post 9049053)
I already provided a link that had studies done as well that proved a supplement like zinc does have helpful benefits.

And this from a guy that doesn't take supplements or believe in them for the most part.
Yea there is always a know it all that thinks they are the great scientific one. If you have problems sleeping and ZMA allows you to sleep better I think the benefits of a good nights sleep are well documented right down to your GH levels.

TheGuardian 10-25-2012 03:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KC Fish (Post 9049249)
Might be. Might not be.... OK, but that's not really conclusive is it?

And you are confusing the direction of correlation in the second study. It's saying that normal testosterone is associated with higher Zinc levels. Which is true. The title of the link you posted reads: "Tip 151: Take Zinc and Increase Testosterone Levels..." But that's not what the second study shows at all. The study researched how testosterone levels affected Cu and Zn levels, not how Zn and Cu levels affect testosterone. The difference and direction is important. And besides that, testing Cu and Zn levels in the hair of testosterone deficient old Koreans isn't exactly the best test base for what we're talking about here.
Right.

And my original point I believe, was that if you were low in zinc you could also be low in test, or vice versa. Not that zinc would make you a superman in terms of test levels. But healthy levels of test are in fact related to zinc levels.

Fish 10-25-2012 04:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGuardian (Post 9049284)
Right.

And my original point I believe, was that if you were low in zinc you could also be low in test, or vice versa. Not that zinc would make you a superman in terms of test levels. But healthy levels of test are in fact related to zinc levels.
The source you used to make your point says in the title "Tip 151: Take Zinc and Increase Testosterone Levels at Rest..." Then it references a study which directly shows that Zinc will not raise testosterone at rest. It's misinformation, that's all. I agree that the levels are related in some ways. But that doesn't show that taking Zinc will raise Testosterone. Some people might read your link and think that to be the case.

Again, my only point was that the majority of people are wasting money on supplements because of the great deal of misinformation on the topic.

JoeyChuckles 10-25-2012 04:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by big nasty kcnut (Post 9049122)
Ever had a dream about a girl giving you a bj and waking up and felt like she did it. I had a dream like that one night.
Thread over.

HMc 10-26-2012 07:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KC Fish (Post 9048976)
Creatine is thought to improve strength, increase lean muscle mass, and help the muscles recover more quickly during exercise. This muscular boost may help athletes achieve bursts of speed and energy, especially during short bouts of high-intensity activities such as weight lifting or sprinting. However, scientific research on creatine has been mixed. Although some studies have found that it does help improve performance during short periods of athletic activity, there is no evidence that creatine helps with endurance sports.
Yeah I wouldn't take it to cure pancreatic cancer either, that doesn't mean the "scientific research has been mixed" any more than "there is no evidence that creatine helps with endurance sports" does.

People don't take it for endurance sports because it's useless for that. The science is in when it comes to short-bursts though, and it's conclusively beneficial. Saying it's of no use for endurance is about as relevant as pointing out that your car won't run on it or that EPO is useless for weightlifting.

I take Superpump Max pre-workout and it's much been much better for me than the coffee I was having before. Whether or not there's a placebo effect is academic to me.

On the topic of supplements though - just because something occurs naturally in our body or in our usual diet, doesn't mean we can't use more of that thing if we want to increase the demands on our body (by making it larger or whatever). If supplementing was entirely bunk in theory, supplementing testosterone with needles wouldn't work either. I mean, we already have test in our bodies, right?

FAX 10-26-2012 08:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by big nasty kcnut (Post 9049122)
Ever had a dream about a girl giving you a bj and waking up and felt like she did it. I had a dream like that one night.
Sadly, there is no peer-reviewed science to support the claim that ZMA supplements will achieve that result, Mr. big nasty kcnut.

For those kind of dreams, you must supplement a girl's bank account.

FAX

BIG_DADDY 10-26-2012 08:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HMc (Post 9051106)
Yeah I wouldn't take it to cure pancreatic cancer either, that doesn't mean the "scientific research has been mixed" any more than "there is no evidence that creatine helps with endurance sports" does.

People don't take it for endurance sports because it's useless for that. The science is in when it comes to short-bursts though, and it's conclusively beneficial. Saying it's of no use for endurance is about as relevant as pointing out that your car won't run on it or that EPO is useless for weightlifting.

I take Superpump Max pre-workout and it's much been much better for me than the coffee I was having before. Whether or not there's a placebo effect is academic to me.

On the topic of supplements though - just because something occurs naturally in our body or in our usual diet, doesn't mean we can't use more of that thing if we want to increase the demands on our body (by making it larger or whatever). If supplementing was entirely bunk in theory, supplementing testosterone with needles wouldn't work either. I mean, we already have test in our bodies, right?
What the people who claim to have science on their side don't realize is that the misinformation is on both sides. There is an interest in promoting and selling products and there is also an interest in discrediting everything right down to quality nutrition and supplementation especially in the US. The global scientific community releases all kinds of research that is almost impossible to find here unless you really want to spend a lot of your time doing your own due-diligence. Muscular Developement magazine used to have a section they printed monthly on that type of information but I have no idea if they still do as I am down to the very basics getting older. My supps are pretty simple at this point, Ubiquinol, krill, astaxanthin, folic acid, B, D3, C, NO and occasionally ZMA when I want to really sleep longer or are having problems. I pick up testosterone levels various ways as well. I don't need much more as my diet is pretty tight as this point and I preffer getting most of the nutrition I need from a quality diet. I went with getting my probiotics like that recently.

okoye35chiefs 10-26-2012 09:04 AM
I've also read and heard positves and negatives on the product.

BIG_DADDY 10-26-2012 09:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by okoye35chiefs (Post 9051228)
I've also read and heard positves and negatives on the product.
What negative? Sheesus I just need to move on.

BigCatDaddy 10-26-2012 09:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG_DADDY (Post 9051221)
What the people who claim to have science on their side don't realize is that the misinformation is on both sides. There is an interest in promoting and selling products and there is also an interest in discrediting everything right down to quality nutrition and supplementation especially in the US. The global scientific community releases all kinds of research that is almost impossible to find here unless you really want to spend a lot of your time doing your own due-diligence. Muscular Developement magazine used to have a section they printed monthly on that type of information but I have no idea if they still do as I am down to the very basics getting older. My supps are pretty simple at this point, Ubiquinol, krill, astaxanthin, folic acid, B, D3, C, NO and occasionally ZMA when I want to really sleep longer or are having problems. I pick up testosterone levels various ways as well. I don't need much more as my diet is pretty tight as this point and I preffer getting most of the nutrition I need from a quality diet. I went with getting my probiotics like that recently.
For sure. You need to be aware of who is doing these studys. A lot of times they are done by someone or paid for by someone with a dog in the fight.

BIG_DADDY 10-26-2012 09:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick (Post 9051245)
For sure. You need to be aware of who is doing these studys. A lot of times they are done by someone or paid for by someone with a dog in the fight.
To show just how strong that element is all you have to do remember the Bush era where they were going after testosterone enhancement like it was the devil. What I predicted back then right on this very sight many times over was that they were going to shut down high quality small pharmaceutical companies like ergopharm so that big pharm could take it over. The demonizing of testosteron enhancement would go away and we would even start to open our own anti-aging clinics promoting the use of testosterone and HGH just like Europe has been doing for a very long time now. That's exactly what has happened yet their hasn't been one **** face who was claiming science was on their side back then who has come forward and said "hey you know you were right", they have just moved onto the next subject with their self-riteous, pretentious BS.

Fish 10-26-2012 10:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HMc (Post 9051106)
Yeah I wouldn't take it to cure pancreatic cancer either, that doesn't mean the "scientific research has been mixed" any more than "there is no evidence that creatine helps with endurance sports" does.

People don't take it for endurance sports because it's useless for that. The science is in when it comes to short-bursts though, and it's conclusively beneficial. Saying it's of no use for endurance is about as relevant as pointing out that your car won't run on it or that EPO is useless for weightlifting.

I take Superpump Max pre-workout and it's much been much better for me than the coffee I was having before. Whether or not there's a placebo effect is academic to me.

On the topic of supplements though - just because something occurs naturally in our body or in our usual diet, doesn't mean we can't use more of that thing if we want to increase the demands on our body (by making it larger or whatever). If supplementing was entirely bunk in theory, supplementing testosterone with needles wouldn't work either. I mean, we already have test in our bodies, right?
That's fine. You think it works for you, and don't care about any placebo effect. That makes your position pretty clear.

And it's ironic that you bring up testosterone supplements. That's one of the worst categories of misinformed supplements. At least you clarified it as supplementing with needles. That's at least slightly effective compared to the pill format. Still it's not really worth it for the majority of people. For people with abnormally low testosterone due to a medical condition, yes there is definitely a benefit. But it's by and large misrepresented for marketing purposes to people who don't need it. It might help you gain some lean body mass when accompanied by a strict workout schedule. Maybe a little.

I think this article explains it pretty well. The author, a personal trainer and editor for many fitness and nutrition magazines, even issues a challenge to anyone regarding the effectiveness of T supplementation:

Quote:
The Facts On Testosterone Boosting Supplements

Testosterone Boosting Supplements – The Facts

“Testosterone boosting” supplements/formulas have become a very popular category in the supplement industry of late. It seems everyone, boy or man, seems to want to “boost” their levels of the hormone that makes men men. Don’t get me wrong, I am a big fan of this hormone, and readers can see that via my other writings on the topic found throughout this web site. Everyone, men and women, can potentially benefit from maintaining optimal levels of this essential hormone.

However, this write up is not going to cover the hormone per se, but to discuss the various over-the-counter (OTC) products/formulas claiming to increase it. As there are literally hundreds, perhaps thousands, of products/formulas on the market at this point, all claiming to “boost” this important hormone, I am going to be talking in generalities about these products vs. a specific ingredient or formula.

A few ingredients in these formulas have been shown – via dubious “research” at best – to have a small impact on T, with the majority of them either having no research behind them or research that found they did nada for T levels.

To summarize this supplement category, the T booster supplements generally contain ingredients that:

• Have no data behind them – or -
• The data they do have is of very poor quality/ and/or taken out of context/not applicable – or -
• The doses used in the formula are far below what a study used to get the effect.

Obviously, the above can (and does!) apply to many products/formulas in the sports nutrition industry, but I find the “T boosters” worse then other categories in that respect.

OK, so lets give some T booster product the benefit of the doubt and say it does have some effects on T. That brings up a few important issues to consider.

Physiological Threshold Concepts

Here’s a simple thought experiment: If you take a small amount of testosterone, say 25mg per week of T- propionate•, will your testosterone levels go up slightly for a short time? Yes. Will your muscle mass increase and or your strength increase? Nope. Anyone who has ever taken any T – or knows the first thing about the topic – knows there’s a threshold dose at which one actually experiences changes in body composition and or strength.

The point being, it’s one thing to show formula/ingredient X has had some small impact on serum testosterone (and most have not…), quite another to show that change actually had any effects on body composition or other end points people using such products generally care about, such as increases in strength and muscle mass.

As with any hormone, there’s a physiological threshold that has to be met before it actually impacts muscle mass, strength, etc.

Anyone who has ever used T in the form of cypionate or enanthate (both long acting esters of T) knows that changes in body composition generally start at around 200mg per week at the least, with more being the norm.

The above assumes a person with “normal” testosterone levels vs. HRT/TRT therapy for those who are found to be medically low in T.••

So, with all that, do you really think that T booster supplement you are using – which already tends to lack any solid data to begin with – is really going to be the equivalent of 200mg per week of testosterone Cypionate? If so, I got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell ya’…Hell, the sound of exotic sports cars can raise T levels. Do you think listening to the sound of a Maserati, Lamborghini and Ferrari before you hit the gym will result in more muscle mass? Me neither….Which brings us to the next section in expectation of the obvious question: how does one know if the T booster he’s using is having any effects on the production of T?•••

Do you put air in your tires without checking the pressure?

Do you put air in your tires without actually checking to see if you need any air or what the air pressure actually is before you add additional air to the tires? I know I don’t, but that’s exactly what you’re doing (assuming said T booster actually has any effects on T…) by using such a product without actually knowing what your T levels were when you started. Altering your T levels is not a minor undertaking, nor should it be done casually, and it can have long term effects, both positive and negative. As I indicated – and we will get more into depth on the topic shortly – I have no faith these products are actually impacting T either at all, or enough to actually cause any changes in body composition (e.g., increases in LBM and or decreases in BF) or strength anyway; but having no idea where you are starting from and if the product is doing anything, is just about as dumb as it gets.

I was going to say something more polite and PC like “it’s not logical” but screw that, it’s just stupid, not to mention a big waste of money in the long run.

If you want to go the Bro Logic/Bro Science/hopeful thinking/placebo-driven route, it’s your money, I guess. I know, I know, you’re that one person who is immune to placebo effects…

Interesting side note – and something I will blog about in the near future, is the fact that placebos are getting stronger! It’s vexing the pharmaceutical industry as we speak, in fact.

A very quick word on Non-T mediated Effects.

This article is looking at two specific issues as it relates to the T booster products:

• The impact on T levels specifically
• That people are using them in an attempt to alter body composition and or increase strength

I am not looking at other potential uses, such as for libido and such, which may happen by what’s called “non-T mediated” effects. Meaning, they have an effect, but not via testosterone per se. For example, Horny goat weed contains biologically active compounds that may have Viagra-like effects that act via PDE 5 inhibition. There are other active compounds found in various herbs and such that show some promise in the areas of libido and others, but they are often not doing their “thing” via testosterone, and even if they are, that does not mean the effects it’s having on testosterone – be it to lower SHBGs, increase free T, or what have you – is adequate to impact body composition and or strength. And, as mentioned previously, many of these compounds are very dose specific, which may or may not exist in that dose in the product/formula in question. Finally, no place is the placebo effect stronger then is the area of libido, but we won’t go there…

An Open Offer….

I have made this offer via email (after being contacted by various manufacturers of some T boosting product usually asking why I’m being so hard on this category of supplements), and on various forums and such, but will put it out there for all to see:

To any seller/manufacturer of a “T Booster” type product/formula. If you wish to have the product tested to see if it truly does increase T levels, I will be all too happy to have it tested for you. Be it, a true double-blind placebo crossover trial, which could also test whether or not the product in question will alter body composition (in response to resistance training of course), or as a simple open label study.

http://www.brinkzone.com/articles/th...g-supplements/
Here's another from NCBI:

Quote:
Effect of testosterone supplementation on functional mobility, cognition, and other parameters in older men: a randomized controlled trial.
Emmelot-Vonk MH, Verhaar HJ, Nakhai Pour HR, Aleman A, Lock TM, Bosch JL, Grobbee DE, van der Schouw YT.
Source
Department of Geriatric Medicine, University Medical Center Utrecht, Utrecht, The Netherlands. m.h.emmelotvonk@umcutrecht.nl
Erratum in
JAMA. 2008 Feb 13;299(6):634.
Abstract
CONTEXT:
Serum testosterone levels decline significantly with aging. Testosterone supplementation to older men might beneficially affect the aging processes.

OBJECTIVE:
To investigate the effect of testosterone supplementation on functional mobility, cognitive function, bone mineral density, body composition, plasma lipids, quality of life, and safety parameters in older men with low normal testosterone levels.

DESIGN, SETTING, AND PARTICIPANTS:
Double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled trial of 237 healthy men between the ages of 60 and 80 years with a testosterone level lower than 13.7 nmol/L conducted from January 2004 to April 2005 at a university medical center in the Netherlands.

INTERVENTION:
Participants were randomly assigned to receive 80 mg of testosterone undecenoate or a matching placebo twice daily for 6 months.

MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES:
Functional mobility (Stanford Health Assessment Questionnaire, timed get up and go test, isometric handgrip strength, isometric leg extensor strength), cognitive function (8 different cognitive instruments), bone mineral density of the hip and lumbar spine (dual-energy x-ray absorptiometry scanning), body composition (total body dual-energy x-ray absorptiometry and abdominal ultrasound of fat mass), metabolic risk factors (fasting plasma lipids, glucose, and insulin), quality of life (Short-Form Health 36 Survey and the Questions on Life Satisfaction Modules), and safety parameters (serum prostate-specific antigen level, ultrasonographic prostate volume, International Prostate Symptom score, serum levels of creatinine, aspartate aminotransferase, alanine aminotransferase, gamma-glutamyltransferase, hemoglobin, and hematocrit).
RESULTS:
A total of 207 men completed the study. During the study, lean body mass increased and fat mass decreased in the testosterone group compared with the placebo group but these factors were not accompanied by an increase of functional mobility or muscle strength. Cognitive function and bone mineral density did not change. Insulin sensitivity improved but high-density lipoprotein cholesterol decreased; by the end of the study, 47.8% in the testosterone group vs 35.5% in the placebo group had the metabolic syndrome (P = .07). Quality-of-life measures were no different except for one hormone-related quality-of-life measure that improved. No negative effects on prostate safety were detected.

CONCLUSION:
Testosterone supplementation during 6 months to older men with a low normal testosterone concentration did not affect functional status or cognition but increased lean body mass and had mixed metabolic effects.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18167405
Another based on a study from JAMA:

Quote:
Testosterone levels in men drop as age increases. This has led to a recent increase in doctors prescribing "testosterone therapy" to counter the effects of aging. Well finally, research has been done to determine if these effects are true or just another hyped-up (and expensive) anti aging "cure."
Testosterone and Aging Research

The study, published in the prestigious medical journal JAMA, enrolled 237 healthy men aged 60 to 80. All men had a testosterone level below 13.7 nmol/L. The men were randomly assigned to be either in a group that received a twice daily oral 80 mg testosterone supplement or a placebo. The researchers measured hand strength, time to stand/sit, cognitive functioning (how well your brain is working), bone density, body composition, cholesterol, insulin, quality of life and other factors.

The results showed that the group who took the testosterone did not improve (compared to the placebo group) in mobility, strength or quality of life. This group also tended to have a higher rate of metabolic syndrome after 6 months. The group taking the supplement did have increased lean body mass and reduced fat in the body after 6 months taking the supplement.

So Is Testosterone Supplementation as Anti Aging Disproven?

Somewhat. Supporters (and manufacturers) of testosterone supplements will argue that the study period was too short and that the type of supplement (oral) was not as effective as other forms (injection). But right now the evidence shows that testosterone supplementation is not a catch-all anti aging solution. It is certain that men with unnaturally low testosterone can benefit from supplementation. But remember, levels of testosterone naturally decline with aging. Right now, avoid testosterone supplementation unless you have a diagnosed deficiency.

http://longevity.about.com/od/resear...sterone_re.htm
Another:

Quote:
In a pilot study using men between the ages of twenty and twenty-five, supplemental DHEA did not increase testosterone levels but did appear to help decrease body fat and increase lean body mass. However, when this study was duplicated, no significant changes in body composition were observed.

Conversely, in another study, an increase in androgen levels was reported in postmenopausal women given supplemental DHEA, as was an increase in body-hair growth during the study period. Another study, this one using both men and women, did not report any significant changes in lean body mass or body fat but did report an overall improvement in the feeling of well-being.

[...]

Major studies with athletes taking DHEA supplements have not yet been reported. However, a small study with young weight lifting men (average age 23 years old), taking 50 mg of DHEA per day, did not report any improvements in strength and lean body mass when compared to the placebo group. Going by the results of the studies just mentioned, and other studies, medically unsupervised DHEA use by young male athletes probably won’t increase testosterone levels significantly enough for stimulating benefits greater then those experienced by natural testosterone production. However, careful use by female athletes and male athletes over age forty may cause some beneficial physical and physiological effects.

Androstenedione has an equally dubious origin as it applies to sports nutrition. You will commonly encounter reference to a study conducted by V. B. Mahesh and R. B. Greenblatt used by Andro supplement companies to substantiate that Andro supplements are effective at boosting testosterone levels and promoting larger muscles and strength. You may be surprised to learn that the 1962 Mahesh study used only 4 nonathletic women. Furthermore the results of the study were based on one dose of either 100 mg of DHEA taken by two of the women or 100 mg of androstenedione taken by the other two women, lasting only several hours. Based on blood samples taken shortly after ingesting the DHEA and Andro supplements, both DHEA and Andro caused a temporary rise in the women’s serum testosterone levels with Andro causing about double the rise in testosterone. Amazingly, during the 1990′s, tales of this one day research study on two women taking Andro prompted androstenedione being marketed as a muscle-building supplement for male athletes, while no real proof existed that males would benefit from taking Andro. You will commonly encounter this scientific reference used in promotional literature as substantiation of Andro supplements (Mahesh, V.B. and R. B. Greenblatt. “The In Vivo Conversion of Dehydroepiandrosterone and Androstenedione to Testosterone in the Human.” Acta Endocrinology, Vol. 41 (1962), pp. 400-406.) You now know that the study substantiates nothing as far as sports nutrition is concerned. Some Andro studies later conducted using males did not show a significant rise in testosterone levels or significant improvements in muscle size or strength.

While millions of andro tablets are consumed per day by iron pumping athletes, recent research adds to the disappointing news of previous studies. For example, a recent study looked at the effects of an androstenedione complex formula had on weight lifting males. The complex formula contained a daily dosage of 300 mg of androstenedione, plus, 150 mg of DHEA, 750 mg of Tribulus terrestris, 625 mg of chrysin, 300 mg of indole-3-carbinol, and 540 mg of Saw palmetto. Blood levels of androstenedione concentrations did increase in the supplement taking group when compared to the placebo group. During the 8 week study period, muscle strength was increased in both the groups, but the differences were not significant. The researchers also observed the use of the androstenedione complex formula did not result in increased serum testosterone concentrations. The increased production of estrogen caused by the androstenedione supplement was not reduced by the addition of chrysin. All told, the andro supplement did not cause additional benefits to resistance-training young adults.

I always advocate having people spend their money on healthy foods & sports supplements that result in naturally boosting testosterone levels and function before turning to prohormones, as well as following a healthy lifestyle. In fact, the most recent research confirms that the simple act of living a healthy lifestyle, consisting of regular exercise and good nutrition, is the best way to maximize testosterone levels. While it is well known that strength training increases testosterone levels, a recent study reported that in middle aged men, being in good health was associated with highest testosterone levels. Good health was defined as the absence of chronic illness, prescription medication, obesity, or excessive drinking of alcoholic beverages.

http://www.protraineronline.com/nutr...ls-yea-or-nay/

okoye35chiefs 10-26-2012 10:14 AM
spam

Fish 10-26-2012 10:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG_DADDY (Post 9051221)
What the people who claim to have science on their side don't realize is that the misinformation is on both sides. There is an interest in promoting and selling products and there is also an interest in discrediting everything right down to quality nutrition and supplementation especially in the US. The global scientific community releases all kinds of research that is almost impossible to find here unless you really want to spend a lot of your time doing your own due-diligence. Muscular Developement magazine used to have a section they printed monthly on that type of information but I have no idea if they still do as I am down to the very basics getting older. My supps are pretty simple at this point, Ubiquinol, krill, astaxanthin, folic acid, B, D3, C, NO and occasionally ZMA when I want to really sleep longer or are having problems. I pick up testosterone levels various ways as well. I don't need much more as my diet is pretty tight as this point and I preffer getting most of the nutrition I need from a quality diet. I went with getting my probiotics like that recently.
You're welcome to post your own examples of this misinformation. I'd love to see some of these scientific studies disproving the ones I've posted. Everybody keeps talking about the differing studies and and how they're all biased. But I'm not seeing many scientific studies supporting what you're claiming.

You're taking 8+ supplements, according to your post. Surely you have some proof of what they do other than personal feeling.

BigCatDaddy 10-26-2012 10:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KC Fish (Post 9051411)
That's fine. You think it works for you, and don't care about any placebo effect. That makes your position pretty clear.

And it's ironic that you bring up testosterone supplements. That's one of the worst categories of misinformed supplements. At least you clarified it as supplementing with needles. That's at least slightly effective compared to the pill format. Still it's not really worth it for the majority of people. For people with abnormally low testosterone due to a medical condition, yes there is definitely a benefit. But it's by and large misrepresented for marketing purposes to people who don't need it. It might help you gain some lean body mass when accompanied by a strict workout schedule. Maybe a little.

I think this article explains it pretty well. The author, a personal trainer and editor for many fitness and nutrition magazines, even issues a challenge to anyone regarding the effectiveness of T supplementation:



Here's another from NCBI:



Another based on a study from JAMA:



Another:

Not sure what you are getting, but I'll make it simple. There are very few OTC test boosters that actually increase Total T levels. 6-OXO and D-Aspartic Acid are a few. At the levels of increase you probably aren't going to see much difference. Maybe a little more energy and sex drive.


Injectable Test obviously will do many things including sex drive, strength, energy and muscle mass.

The probably with T evaluations is today's numbers are skewed a bit. In the 40's the avg T level was around 700, today we are seeing closer to 400. Probably do to a polluted food and water supply. So today's average would have been pretty low many years ago.

BIG_DADDY 10-26-2012 11:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KC Fish (Post 9051428)
You're welcome to post your own examples of this misinformation. I'd love to see some of these scientific studies disproving the ones I've posted. Everybody keeps talking about the differing studies and and how they're all biased. But I'm not seeing many scientific studies supporting what you're claiming.

You're taking 8+ supplements, according to your post. Surely you have some proof of what they do other than personal feeling.
You bet, I have done a ton of research over the years and have met with doctors I highly respect to take what I do. The research behind the benefits of ubiquinol alone on a cellular level are well documented. You can wiki it you want to scratch the surface but I am not going to go back and try to dig up every bit of documentation I have ever come across over the decades to validate each supp I take. Even that goofy chart posted earlier has most of what I take at the very top. If you don't already know the well documented benefits of what I take then you're friggen reeruned to begin with and it doesn't matter what you try and find to validate a contrarian position.

Some of you may need to be a bit older but lets look back at the crock of shit we have been sold over the years by our scientific community.

Most of you won't remember the controvery around glandulars of testosterone boost over 30 years ago but we were told it was crap that didn't work. I guess additonal zits, size increases and aggression must have been the placebo effect.

How about the demonization C and much more recently D-3?

How about when our scientific community tried to outlaw all supplentation period without a prescription. Anybody remember that one from like 1996 or so. Yea they don't work and it's all a hoax but you can still get them through big pharm with a prescription from your doctor. What a ****ing joke that was.

More recently their was the whole demonization of test and HGH wich has moved over to big money now as well. The scientific community was all behind that one.

BIG_DADDY 10-26-2012 11:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KC Fish (Post 9051411)
That's fine. You think it works for you, and don't care about any placebo effect. That makes your position pretty clear.

And it's ironic that you bring up testosterone supplements. That's one of the worst categories of misinformed supplements. At least you clarified it as supplementing with needles. That's at least slightly effective compared to the pill format. Still it's not really worth it for the majority of people. For people with abnormally low testosterone due to a medical condition, yes there is definitely a benefit. But it's by and large misrepresented for marketing purposes to people who don't need it. It might help you gain some lean body mass when accompanied by a strict workout schedule. Maybe a little.

I think this article explains it pretty well. The author, a personal trainer and editor for many fitness and nutrition magazines, even issues a challenge to anyone regarding the effectiveness of T supplementation:



Here's another from NCBI:



Another based on a study from JAMA:



Another:
androstenedione doesn't work, interesting. You should forward this information to Mark McGwire.

King_Chief_Fan 10-26-2012 11:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buck (Post 9047564)
Does anyone else here take it? Its Zinc, Magnesium, and B6. I take it right before bed and I get the best sleep ever. Hell, I've even had control of my dreams.

Waking up is super easy and overall I feel more like a man. Check it out if you.haven't already.
all I know is that it made my crank 3.5 inches longer.

Had to quit taking it so I wouldn't end up tripping over it.

TheGuardian 10-26-2012 11:39 AM
Actually, shoot enough test and your dick will get bigger. This was even verified by Jose Conseco's wife in his book and I dunno, about a billion other dudes on the planet that have run heavy cycles. Which is why I laugh when uneducated mental midgets say shit like "steroids shrink your dick!"

Actually, it's your balls. And you don't really need your balls if you don't plan on having kids anymore. So for those people it just means a bigger dong, stronger libido, more muscle mass and strength, and less bodyfat. So pretty much, it just makes you more awesome.

Fish 10-26-2012 11:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG_DADDY (Post 9051575)
You bet, I have done a ton of research over the years and have met with doctors I highly respect to take what I do. The research behind the benefits of ubiquinol alone on a cellular level are well documented. You can wiki it you want to scratch the surface but I am not going to go back and try to dig up every bit of documentation I have ever come across over the decades to validate each supp I take. Even that goofy chart posted earlier has most of what I take at the very top. If you don't already know the well documented benefits of what I take then you're friggen reeruned to begin with and it doesn't matter what you try and find to validate a contrarian position.

Some of you may need to be a bit older but lets look back at the crock of shit we have been sold over the years by our scientific community.

Most of you won't remember the controvery around glandulars of testosterone boost over 30 years ago but we were told it was crap that didn't work. I guess additonal zits, size increases and aggression must have been the placebo effect.

How about the demonization C and much more recently D-3?

How about when our scientific community tried to outlaw all supplentation period without a prescription. Anybody remember that one from like 1996 or so. Yea they don't work and it's all a hoax but you can still get them through big pharm with a prescription from your doctor. What a ****ing joke that was.

More recently their was the whole demonization of test and HGH wich has moved over to big money now as well. The scientific community was all behind that one.
Well, thanks for your response. I was hoping for something more than a personal opinion and an invitation to visit wiki. But I appreciate your honesty.

I don't really agree with your views on the scientific community and their role in supplements. There are very good reasons for outlawing all supplements. It's currently a giant unregulated misinformed mess of a market. And abolishing it has nothing to do with telling you want you can or can't put into your body. It's all about the snake oil manufacturers selling things as a cure all supplement with little to no evidence to support it. If it has the label "Supplement", there's no regulation on it, and the manufacturer can claim it makes your dick grow a foot, and they don't have to prove that it does. And many uninformed people out there will believe anything the label tells them. That's why supplements are treated with as much skepticism as they are. It's not some big scientific scandal at all.

BIG_DADDY 10-26-2012 12:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KC Fish (Post 9051711)
Well, thanks for your response. I was hoping for something more than a personal opinion and an invitation to visit wiki. But I appreciate your honesty.

I don't really agree with your views on the scientific community and their role in supplements. There are very good reasons for outlawing all supplements. It's currently a giant unregulated misinformed mess of a market. And abolishing it has nothing to do with telling you want you can or can't put into your body. It's all about the snake oil manufacturers selling things as a cure all supplement with little to no evidence to support it. If it has the label "Supplement", there's no regulation on it, and the manufacturer can claim it makes your dick grow a foot, and they don't have to prove that it does. And many uninformed people out there will believe anything the label tells them. That's why supplements are treated with as much skepticism as they are. It's not some big scientific scandal at all.
We are going to have to agree to disagree. Some things should be self-evident like absorbing all the c you put in your system when you are sick. Your body is using it. The supps I take have well documented benefits. I am not going to waste and entire day digging stuff up for you. Anyone taking D3 and C will notice they get sick a lot less. I am sure there are many posters right here who can verify that for you although you won't believe it because some government agency may post an article saying it is horseshit and just a placebo. When I came in here talking about the eliminating allergies (hayfeaver) with garlic I had even the most skeptical of poster in Dave confirm it works. When I talked about topical green tea eliminating the earliest signs of skin cancer I got laughed off the board but have had confirmations since. I will agree with you that there is a ton of supplementation out there that is crap and even more manufacturers who produce inferior products but people like you are far more dangerous than the supplementation industry. You would have people believe that the only thing that works in the world is big pharms take through the FDA. Outlawing supplementation wasn't a scientific scandal as much as it was a follow the money scandal initiated by big pharm using their scientists to say anything that was necessary to gain control of a 60 Billion dollar industry. I don't know what's more amazing your inability to grasp that or your outright denial that supplementation of any kind has benefits and makes a difference in people's quality of life. Outlawing supplementation wasn't really outlawing it at all, you could still get it but now it would be by prescription from your doctor straight from big pharm.

vailpass 10-26-2012 12:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGuardian (Post 9051655)
Actually, shoot enough test and your dick will get bigger. This was even verified by Jose Conseco's wife in his book and I dunno, about a billion other dudes on the planet that have run heavy cycles. Which is why I laugh when uneducated mental midgets say shit like "steroids shrink your dick!"

Actually, it's your balls. And you don't really need your balls if you don't plan on having kids anymore. So for those people it just means a bigger dong, stronger libido, more muscle mass and strength, and less bodyfat. So pretty much, it just makes you more awesome.
Guy I know at the bar just had testosterone implants injected into his butt cheek. Is that the same kind of testosterone you are talking about here?

loochy 10-26-2012 01:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vailpass (Post 9051835)
Guy I know at the bar just had testosterone implants injected into his butt cheek. Is that the same kind of testosterone you are talking about here?
wtf?

Brock 10-26-2012 01:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vailpass (Post 9051835)
Guy I know at the bar just had testosterone implants injected into his butt cheek. Is that the same kind of testosterone you are talking about here?
What kind of bars do you hang out in?

FAX 10-26-2012 01:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vailpass (Post 9051835)
Guy I know at the bar just had testosterone implants injected into his butt cheek. Is that the same kind of testosterone you are talking about here?
I think he meant botox ... not testosterone, Mr. vailpass.

I think your bar buddy got a butt lift.

FAX

Aspengc8 10-26-2012 02:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGuardian (Post 9051655)
Actually, shoot enough test and your dick will get bigger. This was even verified by Jose Conseco's wife in his book and I dunno, about a billion other dudes on the planet that have run heavy cycles. Which is why I laugh when uneducated mental midgets say shit like "steroids shrink your dick!"

Actually, it's your balls. And you don't really need your balls if you don't plan on having kids anymore. So for those people it just means a bigger dong, stronger libido, more muscle mass and strength, and less bodyfat. So pretty much, it just makes you more awesome.
QFT

ptlyon 10-26-2012 02:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brock (Post 9051901)
What kind of bars do you hang out in?
Shhhhh. Hes from denver.

Fish 10-26-2012 02:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG_DADDY (Post 9051833)
We are going to have to agree to disagree. Some things should be self-evident like absorbing all the c you put in your system when you are sick. Your body is using it. The supps I take have well documented benefits. I am not going to waste and entire day digging stuff up for you. Anyone taking D3 and C will notice they get sick a lot less. I am sure there are many posters right here who can verify that for you although you won't believe it because some government agency may post an article saying it is horseshit and just a placebo. When I came in here talking about the eliminating allergies (hayfeaver) with garlic I had even the most skeptical of poster in Dave confirm it works. When I talked about topical green tea eliminating the earliest signs of skin cancer I got laughed off the board but have had confirmations since. I will agree with you that there is a ton of supplementation out there that is crap and even more manufacturers who produce inferior products but people like you are far more dangerous than the supplementation industry. You would have people believe that the only thing that works in the world is big pharms take through the FDA. Outlawing supplementation wasn't a scientific scandal as much as it was a follow the money scandal initiated by big pharm using their scientists to say anything that was necessary to gain control of a 60 Billion dollar industry. I don't know what's more amazing your inability to grasp that or your outright denial that supplementation of any kind has benefits and makes a difference in people's quality of life. Outlawing supplementation wasn't really outlawing it at all, you could still get it but now it would be by prescription from your doctor straight from big pharm.
If there are well documented benefits, then it shouldn't be hard to dig up your "Sources". I managed to dig up plenty that support my stance, and didn't waste an entire day. All you're offering up is personal opinions. If my information is untrue, then it should't take much effort to find the truth. But OK...

And FYI... you should limit the amount of Vitamin C you put into your body. Too much Vitamin C can cause stomach ache, diarrhea, and can slow metabolism. The body can only absorb so much, and anything past that isn't beneficial and can be pretty uncomfortable.

You have also grossly confused my opinions on pretty much everything in your post. I really hate Big Pharm. I don't support them, and I feel they do much more harm than good. I've never said that supplements provide no benefits for anything. What I said was that they rarely provide the benefits described, and aren't worth the money for the majority of people. Big difference. Also, you continue to lump Big Pharm and the Supplement industry together. They are not the same thing.

Big Pharm is at least somewhat held to a standard of proof by the FDA. I know you think the FDA is also evil. And while they are far from perfect, the good they do far outweighs the bad. Big Pharm would be infinitely worse without the FDA. The Supplement industry has zero standards at all. They can claim whatever they want, and they can even hire an actor to put on a doctor's gown and claim it as a proven miracle cure. Outlawing supplementation wouldn't just shift the product into Big Pharm's domain. It would shift it into the FDA's domain, which would require testing and studies to be done before allowing supplement manufacturers to make health claims for it. But that would be the supplement industry's undoing though, since it would require proof. The industry would simply go away for the most part, because they could no longer legally sell lies.

To say that I'm worse than the entire supplement industry is pretty funny. My only goal is for people to be correctly informed, and not believe whatever BS is printed on the bottle. Seek out further information. Look into studies that have been done. Look into studies that both support and criticize, and decide for yourself. Just don't base your decisions on personal opinions that aren't founded.

vailpass 10-26-2012 05:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by loochy (Post 9051897)
wtf?
I hadn't heard of it either. Guy I see at happy hour fairly regularly; our kids go to the same school. Commercial real estate developer; successful dude. Over general drunk talk at the bar a couple months ago he mentioned he had low testosterone and was having these time release testosterone pellets shot into his ass. Saw him again last week, he said he was really happy with the procedure. Said he felt a lot more energy and had lead in his pencil again.
I called bullshit. We looked it up on my phone, sure enough there it is still in my search history. Stuff is called testopel.

Now I hear talk of testosterone here, second time in a week I've heard people talking about it. Just wondering it's the same substance, just administered differently or if the weight lifters use something else.

vailpass 10-26-2012 05:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FAX (Post 9051906)
I think he meant botox ... not testosterone, Mr. vailpass.

I think your bar buddy got a butt lift.

FAX
:) NTTAWWT

NewChief 10-26-2012 05:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vailpass (Post 9052485)
I hadn't heard of it either. Guy I see at happy hour fairly regularly; our kids go to the same school. Commercial real estate developer; successful dude. Over general drunk talk at the bar a couple months ago he mentioned he had low testosterone and was having these time release testosterone pellets shot into his ass. Saw him again last week, he said he was really happy with the procedure. Said he felt a lot more energy and had lead in his pencil again.
I called bullshit. We looked it up on my phone, sure enough there it is still in my search history. Stuff is called testopel.

Now I hear talk of testosterone here, second time in a week I've heard people talking about it. Just wondering it's the same substance, just administered differently or if the weight lifters use something else.
It's the rage, now. I also know two different local dudes who committed suicide after getting on the shit. People are having kids later. Their kids get in high school/college and they start wanting to become "hip" again because they have more time on their hands to go out and hang with their wives, only they're nearing 50 years old. So they start getting testosterone in order to recapture their youth. While it may work for some, the results aren't always good.

BigCatDaddy 10-26-2012 05:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NewChief (Post 9052611)
It's the rage, now. I also know two different local dudes who committed suicide after getting on the shit. People are having kids later. Their kids get in high school/college and they start wanting to become "hip" again because they have more time on their hands to go out and hang with their wives, only they're nearing 50 years old. So they start getting testosterone in order to recapture their youth. While it may work for some, the results aren't always good.
You know two guys that committed suicide and it was caused by testosterone? I'm skeptical that the testosterone would have been the cause.

BigCatDaddy 10-26-2012 06:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KC Fish (Post 9052031)
If there are well documented benefits, then it shouldn't be hard to dig up your "Sources". I managed to dig up plenty that support my stance, and didn't waste an entire day. All you're offering up is personal opinions. If my information is untrue, then it should't take much effort to find the truth. But OK...

And FYI... you should limit the amount of Vitamin C you put into your body. Too much Vitamin C can cause stomach ache, diarrhea, and can slow metabolism. The body can only absorb so much, and anything past that isn't beneficial and can be pretty uncomfortable.

You have also grossly confused my opinions on pretty much everything in your post. I really hate Big Pharm. I don't support them, and I feel they do much more harm than good. I've never said that supplements provide no benefits for anything. What I said was that they rarely provide the benefits described, and aren't worth the money for the majority of people. Big difference. Also, you continue to lump Big Pharm and the Supplement industry together. They are not the same thing.

Big Pharm is at least somewhat held to a standard of proof by the FDA. I know you think the FDA is also evil. And while they are far from perfect, the good they do far outweighs the bad. Big Pharm would be infinitely worse without the FDA. The Supplement industry has zero standards at all. They can claim whatever they want, and they can even hire an actor to put on a doctor's gown and claim it as a proven miracle cure. Outlawing supplementation wouldn't just shift the product into Big Pharm's domain. It would shift it into the FDA's domain, which would require testing and studies to be done before allowing supplement manufacturers to make health claims for it. But that would be the supplement industry's undoing though, since it would require proof. The industry would simply go away for the most part, because they could no longer legally sell lies.

To say that I'm worse than the entire supplement industry is pretty funny. My only goal is for people to be correctly informed, and not believe whatever BS is printed on the bottle. Seek out further information. Look into studies that have been done. Look into studies that both support and criticize, and decide for yourself. Just don't base your decisions on personal opinions that aren't founded.
So you want big brother to tell you what's good for you rather then leaving it up to people to do their own research and choose for themselves?

NewChief 10-26-2012 06:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick (Post 9052630)
You know two guys that committed suicide and it was caused by testosterone? I'm skeptical that the testosterone would have been the cause.
Not saying it was the sole cause, but both wives have reported that their husbands had recently started testosterone therapy a year or so prior to the suicide. That being said, they may have started the therapy due to an underlying depression. Correlation doesn't equate causation, and I'm aware of that.

I'm still skeptical, but I tend to be skeptical about most things. If it's too good to be true, then it likely is.

TheGuardian 10-26-2012 06:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NewChief (Post 9052611)
It's the rage, now. I also know two different local dudes who committed suicide after getting on the shit. People are having kids later. Their kids get in high school/college and they start wanting to become "hip" again because they have more time on their hands to go out and hang with their wives, only they're nearing 50 years old. So they start getting testosterone in order to recapture their youth. While it may work for some, the results aren't always good.
No one kills themselves because of test. Jesus. As noted, there was probably some underlying depression but the amount of test these guys get on HRT is just enough to bring it to normal levels. I mean, I know guys shooting 3+ grams of test a week. Far as I know they are still alive.

BigCatDaddy 10-26-2012 06:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NewChief (Post 9052672)
Not saying it was the sole cause, but both wives have reported that their husbands had recently started testosterone therapy a year or so prior to the suicide. That being said, they may have started the therapy due to an underlying depression. Correlation doesn't equate causation, and I'm aware of that.

I'm still skeptical, but I tend to be skeptical about most things. If it's too good to be true, then it likely is.
I don't know what they were doing exactly, but I suppose I can see if they weren't being treated properly how that might happen. Some docs don't prescribe it to have a nice even level in your system, but rather highs and lows for example 100mg every 2 weeks is bad IMO. If the levels were on the decline after being high then I suppose how I can see it might be related. Going from 800 to 150 and back up and down isn't good.

NewChief 10-26-2012 06:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGuardian (Post 9052686)
No one kills themselves because of test. Jesus. As noted, there was probably some underlying depression but the amount of test these guys get on HRT is just enough to bring it to normal levels. I mean, I know guys shooting 3+ grams of test a week. Far as I know they are still alive.
Your anecdotal evidence of "I know a guy" doesn't outweight my "I know a guy." Much like with marijuana, I'm skeptical. I support legalization, but I don't see pot as some kind of cure-all that's going to solve all our problems like many of its fervent advocates preach. I also think that test has legitimate benefits for some people, but I don't think it's some kind of cure all for middle-aged men to feel like studs into their 70s like many of the test advocates preach.

TheGuardian 10-26-2012 06:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NewChief (Post 9052704)
Your anecdotal evidence of "I know a guy" doesn't outweight my "I know a guy." Much like with marijuana, I'm skeptical. I support legalization, but I don't see pot as some kind of cure-all that's going to solve all our problems like many of its fervent advocates preach. I also think that test has legitimate benefits for some people, but I don't think it's some kind of cure all for middle-aged men to feel like studs into their 70s like many of the test advocates preach.
If they are low it will.

And I have like decade after decade of research to back my stance up actually. Those men killed themselves probably due to other reasons. I'm not sure how putting a hormone in your body that already exists, to a normal amount, would make you suicidal. Again, there had to be other underlying issues.

Agree totally on the marijuana part. Total for legalizing it, but mainly for the economy. Not because I think it has all these wonderful properties about it.

NewChief 10-26-2012 06:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGuardian (Post 9052727)
If they are low it will.

And I have like decade after decade of research to back my stance up actually. Those men killed themselves probably due to other reasons. I'm not sure how putting a hormone in your body that already exists, to a normal amount, would make you suicidal. Again, there had to be other underlying issues.

Agree totally on the marijuana part. Total for legalizing it, but mainly for the economy. Not because I think it has all these wonderful properties about it.
Here's the deal: doctors are prescribing test now just like they prescribe adderall. You pay some high dollars, pull up at a "clinic", where the parking lots if filled with high dollar japanese and european SUVs, pay a premium "consultation" fee, and you get the drug/hormone/supplement of your choice from benzos to stims to test to HGH.

We have tons of friends who do it for adderall and quite a few who do it for test. Their "diagnosis" ranges from adult ADHD, to need for weight loss (for waifish women), to adult depression.

It's just like when my friends in college used to make trips down to Mexico to the pharms down there to pick up benzos and opiates, except now you can do it right at your friendly neighborhood quack. It's not that I'm skeptical of the benefits of test, I'm skeptical of how its being used and all the societal/class bullshit that goes along with this method of drug dispensation. ****ers are getting locked up for life for slinging some weed on the street corner, but legal quacks are doling this stuff out to the rich under the aegis of the law. It's bullshit, and test has become part of that whole thing.

TheGuardian 10-26-2012 06:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NewChief (Post 9052747)
Here's the deal: doctors are prescribing test now just like they prescribe adderall. You pay some high dollars, pull up at a "clinic", where the parking lots if filled with high dollar japanese and european SUVs, pay a premium "consultation" fee, and you get the drug/hormone/supplement of your choice from benzos to stims to test to HGH.

We have tons of friends who do it for adderall and quite a few who do it for test. Their "diagnosis" ranges from adult ADHD, to need for weight loss (for waifish women), to adult depression.

It's just like when my friends in college used to make trips down to Mexico to the pharms down there to pick up benzos and opiates, except now you can do it right at your friendly neighborhood quack. It's not that I'm skeptical of the benefits of test, I'm skeptical of how its being used and all the societal/class bullshit that goes along with this method of drug dispensation. ****ers are getting locked up for life for slinging some weed on the street corner, but legal quacks are doling this stuff out to the rich under the aegis of the law. It's bullshit, and test has become part of that whole thing.
Yeah but it's just test, and they charge a **** ton for it. No one is dying from test or knocking over liquor stores for money for it. So who cares?

KC_Connection 10-26-2012 06:46 PM
This argument reminds me of when people ridiculously blamed Chris Benoit's murder-suicide on steroids.

Fish 10-26-2012 07:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick (Post 9052661)
So you want big brother to tell you what's good for you rather then leaving it up to people to do their own research and choose for themselves?
Yes, that's exactly what I meant when I said this:

Quote:
My only goal is for people to be correctly informed, and not believe whatever BS is printed on the bottle. Seek out further information. Look into studies that have been done. Look into studies that both support and criticize, and decide for yourself.

TheGuardian 10-26-2012 08:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KC_Connection (Post 9052799)
This argument reminds me of when people ridiculously blamed Chris Benoit's murder-suicide on steroids.
Yup. When he had a history of depression and other mental problems. I'm not saying the anabolics/androgenics HELPED (thought they can in some people with low test) but dude was wired to snap regardless. It's also assumed he may have been suffering from the same shit that caused Seau to kill himself.

I am still in disbelief at times over that one.

HMc 10-26-2012 09:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KC Fish (Post 9051411)
That's fine. You think it works for you, and don't care about any placebo effect. That makes your position pretty clear.
You don't come across as smart as you think you do. I enjoy my workouts after using SM. I have no practical means of testing whether it is due a placebo effect or because of the stuff they put in it, nor do I have any real incentive at 40$ a bottle to seek out such a test. I enjoy my workouts more than when I had coffee beforehand (all other variables remained equal). It does not mean I entirely disregard scientific evidence when it is available.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KC Fish (Post 9051411)

And it's ironic that you bring up testosterone supplements. That's one of the worst categories of misinformed supplements. At least you clarified it as supplementing with needles. That's at least slightly effective compared to the pill format.
It's not "ironic" (please procure a reputable dictionary). I didn't bring up testosterone supplements or "t booster" supplements or whatever, so your slab of quoted text that refutes the efficacy of those is useless. I said SUPPLEMENTING TESTOSTERONE with NEEDLES, or in other words, using anabolic steroids. If you think that process only provides "slight" gains, I don't know what else to tell you.

BigCatDaddy 10-26-2012 10:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KC Fish (Post 9052865)
Yes, that's exactly what I meant when I said this:
Sorry, I thought you were suggesting the "outlawing" of supplements when you listed reasons why it should be done.

BIG_DADDY 10-26-2012 11:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HMc (Post 9053096)
You don't come across as smart as you think you do. I enjoy my workouts after using SM. I have no practical means of testing whether it is due a placebo effect or because of the stuff they put in it, nor do I have any real incentive at 40$ a bottle to seek out such a test. I enjoy my workouts more than when I had coffee beforehand (all other variables remained equal). It does not mean I entirely disregard scientific evidence when it is available.



It's not "ironic" (please procure a reputable dictionary). I didn't bring up testosterone supplements or "t booster" supplements or whatever, so your slab of quoted text that refutes the efficacy of those is useless. I said SUPPLEMENTING TESTOSTERONE with NEEDLES, or in other words, using anabolic steroids. If you think that process only provides "slight" gains, I don't know what else to tell you.
I just refuse to debate something with someone who has no clue what he is talking about and won't acknowledge anything as being true unless he read it from a ****ing government sponsored website or another only if it confirms that everything is a placebo. For those who have taken roids like myself many times over decades I think I got a really good feel for knowing what is working and what isn't. I don't need somebody who is an expert at reading articles from supposed experts who has no personal experience at all coming and telling me I am just imagining things and giving me his flipping pretentious attitude. **** your science. I have no idea why fish does this, he is way to smart to go down that road. He knows all about the dosing of C but doesn't know the first thing about the benefits? Give me a flippen break. Dude just feels the need to make other people feel stupid for whatever reason. Lets check the list, bigger, stonger, leaner and I got zits on my ass like when I was 16, IT MUST BE MY ****ING IMAGINATION.

I am a friggen reerun, thank god Fish came along to give me clarity.

loochy 10-27-2012 09:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vailpass (Post 9052485)
I hadn't heard of it either. Guy I see at happy hour fairly regularly; our kids go to the same school. Commercial real estate developer; successful dude. Over general drunk talk at the bar a couple months ago he mentioned he had low testosterone and was having these time release testosterone pellets shot into his ass. Saw him again last week, he said he was really happy with the procedure. Said he felt a lot more energy and had lead in his pencil again.
I called bullshit. We looked it up on my phone, sure enough there it is still in my search history. Stuff is called testopel.

Now I hear talk of testosterone here, second time in a week I've heard people talking about it. Just wondering it's the same substance, just administered differently or if the weight lifters use something else.
They have that same stuff for cattle and it's been used for years. Synovex H has testosterone propionate and Finaplix has trenbolone acetate. FYI, both types of pellets can be broken down and processed into human consumable steroids.

kcxiv 10-27-2012 10:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buck (Post 9047595)
It was recommended to me for muscle recovery (by way of better sleep at night). Nearly every review of it talks about awesome sleep. Check it out.
Well I had insomia bad for months then one day I was like imma sleep in my boxers then i shit u not my insomnia went away. Now im sleeping 8hours like a champ now. It went away from one day to the next lol


I was sleeping lime 2-3 hours a day prior to that for Like 3 months straight. All it took was sleeping in my boxers lol

Buck 10-29-2012 08:20 PM
Last night I only got 4 hours and woke up like I had 8. Tonight I'll get an actual 8 we'll see how I feel in the morning.

Pasta Little Brioni 10-29-2012 08:24 PM
Buck, I just bought this because of your suggestion. Let's see if this helps me finally get some good sleep at night.

Buck 10-29-2012 08:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PGM (Post 9064060)
Buck, I just bought this because of your suggestion. Let's see if this helps me finally get some good sleep at night.
It doesn't help you fall asleep, it just makes the sleep you get better. Give it a few days before you judge it.

You can always take a melatonin and this at the same time.

Also it's recommended you don't eat anything with calcium in it for a while before you take it because Calcium blocks the absorption of B6 into your body.

Good luck.

NewChief 10-29-2012 08:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PGM (Post 9064060)
Buck, I just bought this because of your suggestion. Let's see if this helps me finally get some good sleep at night.
Don't forget to think about trains.

Pasta Little Brioni 10-29-2012 08:31 PM
Yeah, I usually don't have trouble falling asleep, it's that I wake up too often throughout the night for no reason at all.

I'll fill in with the results periodically.

Pasta Little Brioni 10-29-2012 08:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NewChief (Post 9064095)
Don't forget to think about trains.
Brains, Brains, BRAIIIINNNSSS!!!! Oh shit what have you done :eek:

BIG_DADDY 10-30-2012 10:54 AM
So, how did that placebo work out for you?

Aspengc8 10-30-2012 11:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGuardian (Post 9052686)
No one kills themselves because of test. Jesus. As noted, there was probably some underlying depression but the amount of test these guys get on HRT is just enough to bring it to normal levels. I mean, I know guys shooting 3+ grams of test a week. Far as I know they are still alive.
This.

BIG_DADDY 10-30-2012 11:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aspengc8 (Post 9065678)
This.
The misinformation on steroids is mind boggling. Good god, people will believe anything.

loochy 10-30-2012 11:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NewChief (Post 9052672)
Not saying it was the sole cause, but both wives have reported that their husbands had recently started testosterone therapy a year or so prior to the suicide. That being said, they may have started the therapy due to an underlying depression. Correlation doesn't equate causation, and I'm aware of that.

I'm still skeptical, but I tend to be skeptical about most things. If it's too good to be true, then it likely is.
I'd say that test actually made me much HAPPIER...and I was using dosages that far exceeded the tiny doses used in HRT


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