Heh, your math sucks.

That right there is the issue. These guys (esp Hosmer) were supposedly "can't miss" prospects. Future stars. If they can't hit in the bigs, the whole plan falls apart.

But.. on the other hand, we used to think Gordon was a bust too.

No ya don't

Ned is easily to blame...

From pulling Shields to pinch hitting a guy who hasn't seen one pitch over Tejada to tolerating this stupid hand gesturing this team does every time they get a hit....

Not to mention moving your best leadoff hitter out of the leadoff spot, mis-managing running situations on the bases and some stupid bullpen moves.

Yost started Moose in the cleanup spot this year based off of what? A partially good year last year and a good spring???

Do you think that made Moose press some when it counted? Do you think it ****ed with his head when he got moved further and further down?


The starting day lineup should have had Cain in the #3 spot and Butler in the #4.

Ned does not know how to manage a lineup, obviously.

It is more so the attitude of the team that lets me know Ned isn't leading anything. No one acts like they give a shit and they continue to laugh and joke all the way though these losing game. This season does not rest on Ned's shoulders squarely though. Moose and Hoz aren't busts yet but their beyond pitiful play has to be the result of ALL coaches not being able to develop guys. And why is that? I really don't know. Those two don't have to be all-stars but they have to be serviceable, and right now they aren't even that, which rests on coaching to a degree because I refuse to believe both of them are busts. Nothing in their approaches seems to change, they continue to do the same approach at the plate with the same piss poor outcome. That is coaching. It isn't all Ned but being the "head" coach, the whole environment has to change with him leading. He isn't.

That being said, bringing in someone knew likely won't help. :facepalm:

I get that coaches don't have as much impact as we think...but am I wrong for thinking this team would have been better off with Terry Francona?

Your first sentence is what I have been preaching the last few weeks. Yes, it is true that baseball managers have the least impact on the outcome of a game compared to other sports.

HOWEVER......any team, regardless of sport, will reflect their manager\head coach.

Cain and Escobar are both above avg.

Anyways, Moore needs to get the **** out. While he brought in some good talent, the prospects don't seem to be producing and he insists on making the Royals the Kansas City Braves, except with players past their prime and a manager who did nothing in Milwaukee or do anything of note in Atlanta.

When they were winning, I LOVED that little bit of swagger. It's something we haven't seen in a long time.

LMAO

I haven't been back to the K sense the one game I went too and Mark McGwire hit 3 HR with the Oakland A's. That was 95 or 96 I think?



I'd go back but if I lived in Kansas City I wouldn't be going to support them, but maybe a handful of games to boo.

I don't know about that.

The Royals were 17-10 after 27 games. In the 28th game, Ned Yost made one of the most ****ing STUPID decisions ever. Shields was pitching a 2-hit shutout with 9 strikeouts in 8 innings. He had only thrown 102 pitches. Ned Yost yanked Shields and sent Greg Holland out to pitch the 9th. Holland blew yet another save, and the Royals lost 2-1.

The Royals are 4-16 since then, and Yost continues to make blunder after blunder. That's one very big reason why this team has no fire. They've given up on Ned Yost because they know he is the dumbest manager in baseball.

Moustakas and Hosmer know that Ned doesn't hold them accountable. That's why Moustakas hits .170 yet refuses to look at film to figure out what he's doing wrong, and it's why Hosmer hasn't pulled a ball with any authority in over a year. Yost treats these guys with kid gloves when they need to have their asses kicked and sent down to Omaha to figure it out. Put Tejada at third, Butler at first, and Frenchy at DH.

One thing that really concerns me is that moose, perez and hos all did better at the major league level before the coaching staff had a chance to **** with them. Then they all fall apart and lose their power after being in the majors foor a while. Sure some of that is the league adjusting to them, but surely not all of it.

The exchange between ChiefsandO's and lew is the exact reason why Ned is to blame. Yes, MLB managers are the least impactful of any major sport (right next to soccer), but Yost has done a tremendous job of arguing against that wisdom. If a player doesn't want to watch his at-bats, tough-- Yost needs to sit his ass down and demand it. If your team is laughing through the 10th straight abysmal season (yes, AN ENTIRE DECADE OF MISERY), the manager needs heads to roll, leaving no cow too sacred for the butcher. Unfortunately for Ned, heads rolling comes in the form of suggesting the players don't fraternize with the opponents. That's like a mother reprimanding a disrespectful son for acting out by only allowing her son to play XBox without the headset and mic; you're not really inflicting any hardship. This entire organization has the collective manhood of a eunuch colony, and it starts at the Glass prostate, a festering cancer that seems to be completely content seeing no action ever, as long as the pieces are still technically functional. It's absurd.

Pretty much this. Every few years, I see the same thing. Fans hate the manager, barely say a thing about the GM. Baseball managers are close to irrelevant unless they are injuring their pitchers or playing small-ball. GM's should always get the heat for failure, but they rarely do.

You are just asserting that, there's no reason to believe that its true.

The people who should be blamed for the player's failure is the players first, the GM second, and then after that, in a distant third, a random grab-bag of trainers and coaches of whom Ned is one of them.

Isn't that the point of posting? Asserting an opinion? I must be missing something.

GM then Yost, in that order to be blamed.

Here's my frustration: we're talking about players in their mid-20s. These are grown men, but they hardly have the wisdom of people in even their 30s. If I knew in my early- to mid-20s what I know at THIRTY, I would have been on a completely different path in life. The managers and coaches, ESPECIALLY those in a game that requires so few interruptions throughout the course of a game (as opposed to, say, football or basketball), and even MORE SO on a young team that needs direction, should provide guidance, reassurance, and discipline. I FEEL (I apparently have to say that, because you seem to think my posts are me making a declarative with every sentence) that Yost and crew fail in those regards. Where does the blame lie for our major issues this year?

LineupS (I can't really capitalize that S enough): YOST. Batting Chris Getz at 1 is a desperation move that is the closest thing to a metaphorical white flag as you'll see.
Pitching change decisions: YOST, but these decisions have been below-average at best, so I won't get on his case too much.
Francouer: Moore
Hosmer: YOST. The potential is there, we all know it. Players slump; again, we all know it. But this slump has been consistent and he's not an outlier against a team full of power bats. Something has failed to be rectified.
Moustakas: Yost AND Moore. He should've been sent down. We did it for Gordon, we could do it for Moose. If the rumors are true, and Moose simply won't watch his at-bats, that is an absolute mental weakness, and that the coaching staff won't force the issue is a clear failure on their part.

I'm sorry, I just see too many signs of failure from the bench team to place this lump of shit at the feet of Dayton Moore. Yes, he shares a large amount of the blame, but I FEEEEL that Yost deserves the ax first. I wouldn't, of course, be opposed to both receiving a swift kick out of the proverbial door. I just wish Glass would try kicking both at the same time and somehow suffer a coma-inducing concussion. But this is all pipe dreams; we are shit, we've been shit for the past 28 years, and we'll continue to be shit.

I think he has some solid evidence to back his argument.

1. Yost is the one that insisted on hitting for more power. Seitzer was fired because of that. 2 hitting coaches were brought it. Our entire team now sucks at hitting the ball more than they ever have.

2. Yost pulled the guy who was supposed to be our stud in a 1-0 game going into the 9th at home. He opted to go with a Pen that had been meh at best and ended up snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. He also sent a message, intentionally or not that I don't think was well received, wittingly or not.

3. He moved the best leadoff hitter in the AL to the #3 spot. Since then we have gone 4-16 and all we hear is talk about not having a leadoff hitter.

4. He moved Getz into the leadoff spot. Nuff said on that one.

5. In a tie game he brought in Herrera who has been shelled thus far into the season only to watch him get shelled again to blow the tie and the game.

6. In the top of the 9th, down by 1, he brought EJ in to run for Belly with Hosmer at the plate. Yost never sent EJ on a steal to 2nd even though he had plenty of time as well as a batter who has been hitting at the infielders with regularity. Late in the AB, Hosmer gets a hit and EJ goes to 3rd instead of tying the game

7. He's played French too much

8. He's played Moose too much

9. Today was a whopper. Down by 3, bottom of the 9th, 2 outs and the tying run coming to the plate. Tejada is available to hit but instead Yost sends Moore to the plate. Moore, a guy who has not seen 1 pitch in the majors this season is sent to the plate in a clutch situation while a veteran hitter with power is left on the bench.


This is just the glaring.

I disagree with the most fundamental assumption that you are making here: that they are poor young lost kids who need some sort of fatherly guidance and motivation to perform.

They are F'ing grown-ass men. They aren't 12 years old. This also isn't football where screaming and knocking helmets together may fire you up to more effort, baseball is a "cool" sport, in that being too "fired up" can actually be counter-productive and cause you to fail.

If you combine all of that, you might come up with a fraction of an expected loss.

Regardless Yost is still their leader and has to guide them.

Whatever, man. I am not saying it's all on Yost but a good chunk is.

This team continues to act like little kids, play with their head up their and ass Yost just keeps being Yost.

He has done nothing to send a message to anyone. Every decision he has made seems to come back to haunt him and the team.

We were ****ing 17-13 when he decided to move Gordon, for whatever reason. We have won 4 games since.

17 with him the leadoff
4 since he has moved

Some will argue that's an irrelevant move and I will call BS flat out on it. Escobar was hitting good behind Gordon and ahead of Butler. Now he has gone to pot.

In other words at the first sign of a losing streak longer than 2 games, Yost became the "Nervous Ned" we all heard about and ****ed with what wasn't broken, for the most part.

Just like how he pulled Shields when he really had no reason too.

Guide them in what way? You aren't introducing a new offensive and defensive scheme and drilling for months on it. Everyone in baseball plays the game in pretty much the same way, except maybe the Rays with their aggressive defensive shifting.

He needs to do a little more than roll the baseballs and fungo bats out and tell them to play, but not much more.

Ok, you say they're grown ass men? They are acting like children, giving their little hand-signals after squeezing out every little infield single. Ned just sits back and lets it happen.

He isn't treating them like grown men, imo.

BS, alnorth and you know that.

You are mainly arguing with emotion here. Moving Gordon to #3 and Getz to #1 is not irrelevant, but over the course of a couple weeks, it wont amount to even one-tenth of one expected loss.

Over the course of an entire season, the difference between a perfect lineup and the most awful lineup you could possibly constuct that no sane person would use, is about 4 or 5 losses. In an entire year. In a few weeks, the difference, at most, is less than 1 win. Our lineup is not the ideal lineup we should use, but its pretty far from the worst.

You have got to be kidding me.

There is nothing, whatsoever, wrong with this behavior.

Righhht. It won't matter, yet it sure seems to matter.

I mean putting one of your worst hitters in the leadoff spot..nah, minimal impact......:banghead:

LMAO, ok....if you say so.

Funny that I don't see the teams that are kicking our ass doing any of that shit.

I'm assuming we're excluding gameday decisions like not throwing 130 pitches, and not bunting in the 3rd inning.

Excluding that, these guys have played baseball for decades. There's not a new offensive or defensive philosophy to unlearn and relearn like in the other major sports, baseball is baseball. There's not much for the manager to do.

This is called confirmation bias.

Its been proven that the numbers I quoted regarding lineups and wins are correct. "We're losing, so we need a bogeyman. We changed the lineup and started losing? There, that must explain almost all of it. We'd be 1 or 2 games back of Detroit if we kept Gordon at #1."

Those hand gestures that seem to offend you for some strange reason cause them to not hit?

Really? On what planet is this true?

WTF would I be excluding game day decisions when most of what I pointed out is just that?

Batting your worst hitter, or one of your worst, in the leadoff spot? Bad
Moving the best leadoff hitter in the AL out of that spot? Bad
Pulling your stud ace in a 1-0 shutout for a weak Pen? Bad


The list goes on. Ned is not a good game manager and it costs us. Is he working with the best lineup in baseball? No

Does he have an impact on the attitude and mentality of this team? Most certainly


I mean, come on, al.....WTF sends up a guy who has never seen a ML pitch to bat as the tying run in the bottom of the 8th inning when you have a veteran on the bench who has also hit your teams' last 2 hr's???

I mean ****ing seriously!?!?!?!? That move in and of itself is a ****ing microcosm of what Yost is.

I guess you were raising the roof with Greg Hill after his 1 yard runs too??? :thumb:

You were talking about "leadership", which is kinda vague hand-wavy nonsense to me.

If we're talking about game decisions, then we're back to, at most, a fraction of one expected loss that you can probably pin on Ned.

This isn't black-and-white. Maturity doesn't work in binary; incremental improvements are a part of life, and these guys have a tremendous weight on their shoulders. A 12-year old would buckle under that pressure, and MOST 20-somethings would, too. Major leaguers NEED guidance and reassurance, and I'm not talking about mollycoddling. They need to have a figure there that is the calming presence who can also put a fire under their ass (in private) when necessary. I know that sounds "hand-wavy", but it's true.

This is the first year in many years I'm really trying to give a **** and watch them this year. I've missed a lot of baseball and want to enjoy the game again. I want the Royals to give me a reason to give a **** so that I can enjoy watching them play.

Just so I'm clear, I don't think Ned is a great manager. Not awful either, but not great. I'm kinda irritated with the teflon status that every GM seems to have in baseball.

Fans of every team massively overrate the importance of the baseball manager, which in and of itself isn't bad unless it leads to people wanting a meaningless manager firing while not saying hardly anything about the GM.

For arguably the first time in my life, I agree with Pete here. When you've lost 90% of your games this month, you need to stop acting like you've one the World Series every time you hit a single.

Yost may not be "the reason" we have lost some of these games. But he certainly has made some less than good decisions that pushed the odds extremely against us winning. How is that?

I mean, he sends up Moore instead of Tejada today. Would Tejada have come through for sure? We can't say. Does Tejada have a better chance at pinch hitting in a pressure situation than a kid who hasn't seen 1 ML pitch this season? Most certainly.

What did Yost do? Went with the decision that put the odds against us in a major way.

So al, are Hoz and Moose busts at this point? Are they just not good like we thought they would be?

Can they develop into real MLB players and what will it take for them to get better?

So, which is it. Do we need the players, who are apparently fragile and need encouragement, to encourage each other every time they have some success, or not?

I don't care either way, but I don't think it means a damned thing in terms of wins and losses.

I was telling Wife at dinner tonight how stupid it looks when you're losing your 5th game in a row, you can't get more than an infield hit and when you find your way on base you start giving little hand signals like you just did something great!

Like Marcus Allen always said, "act like you've been there before"

al, I posted as much to you in a rep message, but it's a ****ing great change of pace to have civil disagreements here. I hate the personal route that 99% of the tiffs seem to take on CP. Mostly, thats because I suck at insults :D

I wouldn't say extremely, or we'd be at several expected losses, which just isn't the case.

You can encourage each other in ways that doesn't make you look like a douche in the process.


You hit a single...ok ..so you look back at the dugout and clap your hands and say "let's go". You don't wave your hand in front of your face like you just hit a 450ft jack or something.

And what's embarrassing is when they do their little hand signals the other team is probably just laughing and pointing at the scoreboard and standings.

I don't know. The odds are that at least one of them is a bust. If the other takes the Alex Gordon development timeline, then we'll lose our pitching before they come around.

No problem, I'm pretty aggressive with the ignore button so I don't really get into insult/flame-wars.

I'd expect us to lose less if he made better decisions. How is that?

Hosmers swing is sooooo long but he seems to have it better mentally, moose has a better looking swing, but his head is dumb

So when Seitzer told Yost we were still 2-3 years out of being a power team was firing Seitzer and insisting on more power a good decision?

OK, I'll give you that. I don't think it makes a difference and I don't care, but I can see how some people would glare at that sort of thing and say "cut it out guys, you haven't earned the right to do that."

It doesn't directly effect winning but it sure as **** is pretty clear that it shows the entire midset of an organization that never wins and doesn't have the mental fortitude to do so. Name me another team that would act like every hit is a celebrated milestone? It is ****ing absurd until you actually start winning games. And teams that are winning games aren't doing it for every ****ing lame ass single.

The problem with the both of them is they are trying to kill the ball. You can see it plain as day. Both are pulling their head. Both are not hitting for much power. Both are rolling over on a lot of pitches.

That's a sign that they are trying to go yard instead of hitting line drives.

Unfortunately, we're looking so bad now, that I don't think it'll matter. If we were to miss the playoffs by one or two games, the post-mortem would get interesting.

So do you believe Alex developed by himself or with help?

It just seems so many in this franchise goes bust route. Where are we going wrong with prospects who are highly touted?

Was the Seitzer firing a Yost decision? If so, does Moore share the blame (if there is any to be given) for not vetoing it?

the kind of celebrating I want to see is like when Gordon hit the game winner a few weeks ago and grabbed his helmet and flung it down as if to say "that's right mother ****ers!"

But that was a game winner. High fivers in the dugout after a jack or a good SAC or you score...sure, fine, that's all fine.

Celebrating because you hit a ball slow enough to 3rd base that you beat it out??? Nah, you can't be doing that shit.

Moore shares the blame in a lot of this. I do believe the Seitzer firing was a Yost decision.

My opinion is we bring them up too soon and\or depend on them too much once they are up.

We put too much pressure on Grienke too early.

We put too much pressure on Gordon too early.

We are doing the same with Hos and Moose.

None of these guys are getting the chance to be rookies.

I mean, FFS, Moose was batting cleanup to start the season. WHY?

Re: Seitzer, I'm gonna need to see a reason to care, before I care. They weren't setting the world on fire at the end of 2012. (or the entire year, in Hosmer's case)

Maybe hitting coaches matter, especially for players in their first 2 or 3 years, but there's been very little research done on that.

Well we fired Setizer and now have 2 hitting coaches and we are hitting twice as bad.

I highly doubt that.

He crushed the ball in Surprise, bro! Just crushed it!

That's spring training pitching.

You think Dayton wanted us hitting for more power?

Pete, that was my brah voice. My homer voice. That voice contains sarcasm.

thats also just one data point.

We'd probably have to have some kind of huge study spanning many years over every team, and see if there's a correlation between hitting coach and performance in the first 2 or 3 years, independent of any particular team's ability to draft well/poorly. You'd probably have to say "ok, if you OPS .850 in your last year of AAA, we expect X, if you OPS .800 we expect Y, etc. Do we have a few hitting coaches who are able to consistently beat those numbers in a statistically significant way". That would be a ton of work.

Sorry, my sarcasm meter has been broke all day

Yost is nothing special. But the biggest problems with this team is owner and gm.

Dayton Moore = fraud
Glass = Who are the Royals again?
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Encouragement is great. Acting like 11-year-old jackasses every time you hit a single is not.

We should fly a banner...

What happened to the Royals rep threads?

Firing Ned Yost does nothing. He just manages the players. It's the guy who supplies the players to the major league roster that needs his feet held to the fire.

Just be patient.
This may be a ten year plan....

The good news is, one day we'll see Gordon, Moose, Hosmer and Salvy all tearing it up at the same time for an entire year.

Bad news is, they'll be playing for the Yankees, Dodgers, Red Sox and Detroit.

On a somewhat unrelated note, I disagree with that whole "come on, get yourself thrown out" concept.

Getting yourself thrown out of the game doesn't do anything. I don't believe the players will perform any better if you get tossed. I DO believe in running out there when your player is carping at the umpire, but thats just to save your player from getting tossed. Then, go ahead and defend your player's honor for a while, and leave.

Losing your mind isn't going to cause the umps to change their mind. Like today, on that Frenchy foul ball ruled strike 3, Yost ran out there to save Frenchy, then asked the ump to check with the other umps. Apparently he wasn't 100% sure of his call, so he agreed to check. If he would have folded his arms and refused, getting yourself tossed wont do anything. Then when they reversed, Socia went out there screaming like a maniac, making himself look like a fool. What does getting tossed gain his team?