I wouldn't take him because of his off field issues (kinda scary) but not because of said position.

Unlike Romeos 34, we don't really sit in the base much at all, so I think a guy with his talent, if properly cultivated, could be a great asset next to Poe and the other dl

He's a rotational player at best and a guy that won't see the field because of his attitude at worst.

We need IMPACT in this draft. Rashede Hageman is going to be limited in his ability to be that solely because of his position.

EDIT: Vance Walker can provide everything Hageman can.

Why can a defensive end not be an impact player in the 34?

I never said they couldn't be. I said it's extremely hard for them to be. The JJ Watts and Ty Warren's of the world are exceedingly rare.

The chances of Hageman being that type of player are akin to winning the lottery.

Year 1, probably.

In future years I dunno.

He's (along with tuitt) got the physical tools to do it. Seems to have some mental issues though.

I'd rather take Donald of we are going dl, although he won't be ther

The difference between the 5th-best 3-4 DE in the NFL and the 15th-best isn't even visible to the average fan's eye.

Our efforts need to be focused on getting the absolute most impact out of each and every pick.

you dont build your team with the "eye of an average fan."

Hagemon is not polished, but he has rare speed/strength/size combo. Tuitt is likely in that same mold.

His chances of becoming a rare football player, a complete player, and an actual impact player are exceedingly small.

There's no reason to draft a guy like that when you can get 80% of his production at 10% of the cost in free agency.

'

1. that is your opinion that you are stating as fact. it is not fact.

2. hagemon is already a rare athlete.

3. Tuitt and Hagemon already have the athletic ability. Their ability to become "rare football player, a complete player, and an actual impact player" is not smaller than any other player. It will be based on their work ethic, the system they are placed in, opportunity, and luck.

I understand that the chiefs drafted Jackson and Dorsey in the top 10, and now chiefs fans are jaded about drafting a 3-4 DE in the first round. Tuitt and Hagemon are far more athletic than either former chief player.

3-4 DE can make an impact as a pass rusher. Cameron Jordan had the 5th most sacks (12.5 sacks) in the nfl for the 2013 regular season as a 3-4 DE. JJ watt and Mohammed Wilkerson had over 10 sacks each.

Those type of players arent available in FA.

Both Hageman and Tuitt have been criticized for being lazy and completely disappearing in games.

Hageman has had numerous off-the-field issues where he's tended to gravitate towards the fun zone.

Both are prototype in terms of the size and athleticism for the position, but both have question marks about their drive and desire.

We've got a guy in DeVito who absolutely brings it every single play. No, he's not an impact pass rusher, but the guy is strong like bull, can rag doll dudes and demands a double team a lot of the time. Just eats the gap like it's a big fat Sugar Daddy.

Walker has shown he can pressure the pocket on a shit Raiders line. Bailey can pressure the pocket in the right alignments. And if the rumors are to be believed, Catapano will be showcasing a new 295 lbs. body - and if he maintains his relentless drive I think he's got serious upside. That's four guys. We don't need another one, especially one with a first round pick that has question marks about their drive and love of the game. None of these guys like we have have any questions about their drive. They all bring it. Dorsey isn't going to draft a dude with question marks on their work ethic. He didn't do it last draft and he's not going to do it now.

No way, no how either Tuitt or Hageman will be the pick.

that is the argument against just about every big defensive man.

I think you are really over-stating things.
2012 disorderly conduct arrest. charges dropped.

other than that, Hageman had a rough upbringing. He overcame that. Those experiences (and the opportunity he now has) seems to drive him, much like Tamba Hali's experiences while in Liberia.

DeVito is not a 3-down lineman.

Bailey is JAG, and will be a FA in 2015.

Catapano is a 7th round pick who is bulking up. He hasnt really done much to warrant the hype yet.

Walker has pass rush ability, but he is switching to a new scheme and is not prototypical as a 3-4DE. Who knows if he will be a liability or not against the run playing an end position.

Dorsey drafts workout warriors, and Hagemon fits that description. Dorsey has already drafted a player who was suspended by their team for violating team rules in Travis kelce.

He also drafts high energy guys who get after it on the field.

Fisher, Kelce, Catapano, Kush, Davis all put in the effort.

From NFL.com:

Pretty much sums it up.

He doesn't look good at all when asked to two gap and he's much better off on the edge versus inside. He plays mean and violent when he gets to the ball or gets through a block early, but there's a noticeable lack of effort when he's stood up or the play goes away from him. He gets knocked off the play a lot, especially when he gets double teamed.

The measurables are there, but he's raw and there's a lot of stuff that will need to be corrected and motivation found if he's going to be successful at the next level.

He was fun to look at/consider initially, but there are a lot of warts on his game once you get past the initial size and athleticism that he has.

Three clips of Hageman:

Highlight/lowlight reel:
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/GCsD1fs7CMY?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Pure highlight reel:
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/h6VGw6D2BkQ?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

All plays in 2012 Bowl Game against Texas Tech:
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/CHjCRb49ER0?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Drafting a boom or bust prospect in the 1st round is a sure-fire exit strategy for a GM if he busts. I'm not a fan of taking big-time chances in round 1. I like chances, but the price is too steep. Take those guys after round 1. Less money tied up in the mistake, and fewer expectations that the player must be a starter. I wouldn't touch a single defensive tackle in this draft in round 1.

Some people are just fixated. That's all.

I think the NFL.com assessments that saccopoo posted are fair and valid. I still think getting that type of player @ #23 would be good value.

--------------------------
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/writer/...orced-to-reach

A rotational guy with limited pass rushing ability is good value? Since when?

In general, it takes Defensive lineman 3yrs to develop.

Whether the player is Aaron Donald or Hagemon that player would be best used in a rotation. While I believe that Donald can never be a 3-down player in the chiefs defense, I think Hagemon can be at some point in his career.

Hageman has just as much chance of being the next Wendell Bryant.

There's no reason, with the holes this team has and the number of picks they don't, to draft a developmental defensive linemen with big time attitude issues.

you can make a statement similar to that about any player. there are no sure things.

what would that be?

The guy would disappear for entire series' at a time. I've seen him play a lot the last 2 years. For all of his athletic gifts, he's just not a difference maker.

how is that a "big time attitude" issue?

Have you ever tracked the careers of defensive tackles in the NFL?

Some of us started doing it around the time the Chiefs took Ryan Sims.

Lack of work ethic is a HUGE red flag for interior defensive linemen, who have spent most of their formative years dominating people solely on the basis of their size/athleticism ratio.

They almost always bust in the NFL.

1. I would like to see that data

2. I dont think that "disappear for entire series' at a time" is the same as a "lack of work ethic" or the same as "big time attitude issues."

In Hagemon's case it could be the lack of technique and experience.

I'll have to see if I can dig it up. We only did it for a few years and the database is very difficult to search that far back.

Again, I watched him play quite a bit. There were many times when you could see a lack of effort.

What you assume as lack of effort can be something else.

Hageman's production is relatively modest compared to other top prospects for a reason: his technique is still quite raw. The fact that he's a defensive line convert still shows, as he struggles to disengage from blockers using his hands and lacks pass rushing moves. He's inconsistent in utilizing his length while engaged, often not being in ideal position to extend into his blocker and dominate as he should. With his size, he needs to learn how to keep his pads lower with more consistency as he has a lot of body to latch onto, which plays a part in his losing battles at the line. His dealing with double teams is less than ideal, as he often lacks a plan while attacking them, not being quickly aware of the extra attention and running into a wall. He could also stand to add lower body strength to help him improve his dealing with double teams. His long legs can leave him susceptible to cut blocks.

He has a lot to learn, but so did Poe. His physical gifts are something that cant be taught and something that is worth the #23 pick with the new CBA.

last yrs #23 pick was DT Shariff Floyd. His contract

Except that a lot of scouts are also assuming it's a lack of effort...

Hageman isn't NEAR the physical specimen Dontari Poe is.

You're inflating his value quite a little bit.

who are these scouts? I think it will be clear exactly how the NFL perceives him on draft day. Its smoke and mirrors time right now.

they are both physical freaks.
https://i.imgur.com/BXyjMwM.png

Poe is heavier and faster, but Hageman is still very fast for his size. Poe benched 44x with 32" arms, while Hageman benched 32x with 34" arms. Hageman has better numbers everywhere else.

Poe is a physical freak as a NT. Hageman is a physical freak as a 3-4 DE.

I'd probably wait and take a de later, as quarrels and Easley are likely to drop and if in the right situation (healthy and motivated) they could end up being really solid players

Peshek: DT Metrics 1.0
(highlights)

How well did they rush the passer?

The chart below represents pass rush efficiency for each of the defensive tackles. The metric PRR, pass rush rate, measures how often the pass rusher affected the QB in the form of a pressure, sack, or knockdown. PRR+ includes pass deflections at the line of scrimmage. The number represents on a per snap basis, how often they get to the QB – ie, if PRR is 10 it means they affect the QB once every 10 snaps. Thus a lower number is better.

http://i.imgur.com/SS37Jel.jpg

- We can see that Aaron Donald is nearly twice as efficient in pass rush as the next best DTs on the list. Coming in with a PRR of 6.42, his efficiency getting after the quarterback matches what you’d expect to see from the very best pass rushing linebackers and defensive ends in both college and the NFL. Frankly, this metric is exceptional for a defensive tackle.

- Timmy Jernigan’s pass rush efficiency is notably lower than the other defensive tackles on this list, coming in at 19.14, but that’s not totally a bad thing. This group of DTs are quality pass rushers and a PRR score of 19.14 wouldn’t be out of line for a 1st/2nd round defensive tackle in any other year.

- Without adding in batted passes at the line of scrimmage Hageman is still very productive, pressuring the QB once every 12.75 snaps. However, when you add on his penchant for knocking passes down, his PRR+ nears Aaron Donald’s. There may be concerns about Hageman taking plays off, but from a metrics standpoint he gets the results he needs to.

- Despite all the concerns and discussion about his weight, Sutton was still a quality pass rusher with a PRR similar to Hageman’s at 12.79. This would be enough to compare to DTs in the 2012 draft class like Sheldon Richardson and Sylvester Williams.

How did they do against the run?

Similar to the last section, I’ll break down the tackles’ impacts in the run game by looking at their rate of making effective tackles. An effective tackle is one that is behind the LOS or within 3 yards of the LOS, thus stopping a RB for a less than average run. The Eff Tak score is in the same format as PRR.

http://i.imgur.com/W05Bukc.jpg

- Continuing on with his positive showing so far, Aaron Donald comes in at second among the first group of DTs, impacting the run game once every 9.4 snaps. It’s easy to think he might be a pass rush specialist only, but he clearly shows the ability to make impact tackles.

- Timmy Jernigan has the highest effective tackle rate of the first group of DTs at 7.24. This was plain to see when he faced Auburn, but Jernigan shows a well-roundedness by being able to affect the run game often.

- It’s likely that Hageman saw the least total run snaps among the entire DT class given the rotations from Minnesota. However, his supposed ‘lack of effort’ still did not show up, racking up a solid 11 Eff Tak rate.

- If you’re worrying about anyone being a pass rush specialist only, it might be Will Sutton. His Eff Tak rate is half that of Timmy Jernigan, making an impact tackle once every 14.75 snaps. How he’ll handle the run game at a lower weight is a question that needs to be answered.

How did they get their run stops?

This is a bit of an experimental section examining run stops. The goal is to see where the run goes - which is to say, if the DT is lined up over the right side A gap where did the run go relative to that alignment? I've found over the DT class, that around 47% of their tackles will be within 1 gap distance away. It's not a definitive measure and it's still something I'm examining, but I figure the more tackles a DT has (close to the LOS) further from the original alignment, the more range in the run game that player has. The chart represents the percentage of tackles made by distance from original alignment.

http://i.imgur.com/P2UWjEA.jpg

- We can see that Donald has a lower percentage of tackles 0-1 gap away from his original alignment than average (33% vs 47%) and 14% of his tackles were further away than expected. Along with his quality tackles mentioned in the previous section, this indicates he could have superior range in making tackles we wouldn’t normally expect a DT to make.

- Timmy Jernigan has a higher percentage of tackles within 1 gap than we would expect, 55.6% compared to 47% to be exact. However, that’s more likely to be expected for a DT that often played over center or only slightly shaded off.

- Like Donald, Hageman displays impressive range where 25% of his tackles were made 4-7 alignment positions away. This matches well with the athleticism displayed on tape and in post-season testing.

- Sutton has a lower percentage of tackles 4-7 gaps away at only 10%, however a solid 50% of his tackles came 2-3 gaps away which shows an ability to be more than just a space filler.

Where did they line up?

The image below represents each player’s alignment on both pass and run snaps. The larger the circle, the more often they frequented that position in their pre-snap alignment. This should give you a feel for what type of experience they have and where their production was gained.

http://i.imgur.com/Q8W35MW.jpg

- Aaron Donald primarily lined up directly over the right and left guards doing so 33.85% and 25.85% of the time respectively. It’s notable that he has the most experience rushing the passer on obvious passing downs from the outside where he did so approximately 6.5% of the time. He also had the least experience lining up directly over center.

- In Florida State’s scheme, Jernigan played directly over center and shaded off much more than players like Sutton and Donald. 38% of his pre-snap alignments came directly over center and he was shaded off center for another 30% of plays.

- Hageman saw a similar pattern of playing inside, however he didn’t play directly over center as often as Jernigan, only doing so 11% of the time. He saw alignments between the guard and center on the right and left 23% and 31% of the time respectively.

- Although he doesn’t have quite the outside experience that Donald does, Sutton aligned pre-snap much like Donald. With an even 35% on both sides, he faced off with the guards a total of 70% of the time. In total, 15% of his snaps came inside of the two guards.

Thanks for supporting my argument.

Hageman isn't even close to the best DT in THIS draft, let alone in the last few.

People bitch about the expectations placed on Eric Fisher. You've built Hageman up to be something he absolutely isn't.

I take it you just looked at the pictures and didnt read.

I didn't read all of it because it all points to the same thing - you're wrong.

You've pegged Hageman as some kind of rare specimen. I've actually watched him play. A LOT. I don't have to read more than 3 or 4 lines into that to know that it doesn't support your opinion at all.

you say that it proves your argument, but also say you didnt read it. ROFL

ROFL

This guy could play DE for the chiefs.

Zach Moore, DE, Div. II Concordia-St. Paul
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings...2014&genpos=DE

He definitely fits the profile of a later round Dorsey pick.

What are your guys' thoughts on Timmy Jernigan?

Good player. Similar in many ways to Glen Dorsey. nfl.com draft profile projects him to a 3-4 NT (much like Dorsey plays in SF).

I dont see him as a good fit for the chiefs due to his short arms, short stature, and maxed out frame.

Short, small, slow and often injured.

A poor man's Glenn Dorsey.

If Peterson was still GM, he would be the Chiefs pick at #23.

Drafts top 5 DE

I've soured on Hageman due to off field concerns and whether he'll play hard or not.

I'd much rather have Tuitt at this point.

Yup, Tuitt is much younger also.

If Hageman had Crichton's motor, he'd be my pick.

Yeah, but give me Brent Urban in the 3rd-4th over either of those guys in the 1st. When Urban is on his game, he really looks like JJ Swat.

can you show me an example of that?

I've watched some of his different games and am not impressed. IMO, he needs to get much stronger. I am also concerned that he is still not over his high-ankle injury he suffered in october.

I like Quarles and Easley in the 3/4 alot as well.

Strength is not his problem at all. He's a really strong player but is technically raw. He really needs to develop some pass rush moves and overall use of his hands. His power was never in question, he routinely drives blockers back into the backfield and dominates with his strength and length; however, he seems to not know when to shed and is content with just latching on like a blocker and trying to bull rush his blocker into the QB. Maybe it's due to scheme, who knows?

Here is a little tidbit from Roto:

I can read what you are saying, and again I disagree. I have watched his highlight videos as well as the 3 videos on draft breakdown.

Once again, your claims and statements are not sufficient. Please show examples (you can link to a video with the times). Urban is a nice developmental prospect because of his length and size, but I dont see any of the things you have described.

Todd McShay: UCLA's Anthony Barr a 'one-trick pony' who is a big-time gamble

I really do not view Barr as a 3-4 rush linebacker at all. I view him as a more athletic Scott Fujita. I dunno, not overly high on him for the Chiefs that's for sure.

went 37th overall.

Atlanta is building a big 3-4D with Paul solai, Tyson Jackson, and now Hageman.

49ers have long-armed draft class