Except that he came from a small school, got significantly less practice snaps in the offseason due to the new CBA, and missed a lot of offseason snaps due to injury. Despite having less time and being raw, he was also asked to play a new position.

He improved throughout the season and everyone knows he'll benefit from adding weight, which can easily be done this offseason. It worked wonders for Poe.

So no, I don't view it as a bad sign. I see reasons to be optimistic. Those are all good reasons to be at least be patient before we judge.

there was a sure #1 player in 2012, his name was Andrew Luck

there was no #1 player in 2013, however.

I hope Andrew Luck busts. I'm tired of hearing about that dickhead.

There were definitely several people who were quite vocal about the idea that the No. 1 overall pick (or anyone taken in the top 5) could not be a player who needed to develop/might need to spend some time sitting before he was a capable NFL player.

Fisher to a small extent and Joeckel to a much larger one were trumpeted as the "safe" and "right" picks because of this.

Coulda swore I typed 2013 there. Oh well, excuse the typo but you know what I mean.

OHHHH, GREATEST COMEBACK PLAYER IN HISTORY!!! :mad:

As they goddamned well better. Stephenson was downright good at LT. Not elite. Not great but good. Fisher was a cluster**** at the easier tackle spot.

If he lights the world on fire, switch them. But opening day starter at LT must be Stephenson.


This. And the fact remains we used #1 overall to replace a good player we let walk. This is why you don't use top 5 picks to replace good players. You fill some giant ass hole somewhere you obviously have or you wouldn't be top 5.

and the guys that ended up being the best day 1 starters not only fell out of the top 10, but had red flags galore. (Star and Richardson)

We really have no idea how OTAs and training camp will go.

They made the investment on Fisher at 1.1, he'll get ever opportunity to start at LT.

**** that. Stephenson showed it on the field. How many times have we heard from Gretz, Reid Ferren, who the **** ever else that someone was lighting up OTAs, camp, walking down the street, what the **** ever.

Kris Wilson
Boomer Grigsby at FB (LOL)
Brodie Croyle
John Baldwin

It happens every stinking year. **** that. Start Stephenson. If Fisher demolishes worlds at RT, give him a look. Keep Alex Smith upright in the interim.

Recipe for failure.

To be fair, the biggest reason they were picking #1 overall was because of Cassel. They replaced him well before the draft leaving few "gaping" holes to be filled.

He really didn't.

This guy is nothing but a pedestrian NFL player at this point.

Dayton Moore thinks this is a smart way to run an organization...

He's also a backup. He's never had a chance to settle in anywhere.

And he was still better than Fisher.

Fisher never resorted to tripping Robert Mathis. He was terrible in that game at Arrowhead. He was worse in that game than Fisher was all year. Fisher held his own against some pretty good pass rushers including Mathis. Teams tried to go after him every week and he got better.

I like Stephenson but he's not as good as Fisher.

No. This is poppycock too.

Fisher was a dumpster fire outside of 1 or 2 mediocre games.

This isn't true at all.

Yeah, it is.

:clap:

Sorry, but he is the 2nd Coming of PM with scrambling ability.

He under performed for sure. You guys are in lost cause land. Fisher improved, and finally was better that you want to give him credit for.

If all you have to hang your hat on is hope, good luck with that.

Chiefs fans know nothing of hope, lol.

If you look at the situation as hopeless, then I'm sorry.

I don't look at the situation as hopeless at all.

But looking at it realistically, the only reason anybody at all could be ok with Fisher being the opening day LT is because they've given themselves over to hope.

There's no objective reason to think that will be a success, at least not initially.

Good. Do I think he'll struggle? Yes I do. I also think he is talented, and probably will improve.

My only problem is, it may take more than just 1 full NFL off-season for him to do it in. There's also the question of whether or not he can stay healthy next season.

Our 1.1 coulda been worse. Joeckl was less impressive and didn't even make it half a season.

I wouldn't have guessed that Fluker would have a better rookie year than all 3; Fisher, Joeckl, and Johnson. And what's up with the Long family? All 3 are football freaks. The dad and both sons.

I don't know why when one says, "Fisher was a ****ing terrible #1 pick" everybody asks, "So you'd rather have Joeckel?"

Who's pointing the gun to Dorsey's head telling him to pick an OT?

No kidding. It could have been much worse. Hell, the dolphins are trying to trade Jordan already. Geno is a nightmare. Even Tavon Austin only had one or two good games. Warmack was supposed to be a sure thing and he struggled. Expectations are a funny thing when it comes to the draft. it was a shitty draft class to begin with. Chiefs fans were just in denial about that from the beginning imo. I think we came out pretty good with Fisher and it is still very early.

Albert was only franchise tagged.

No clear #1 overall prospect.

Every QB prospect sucked that year and were all 2nd round level players at best.

Top defensive players all had red flags.

No clear "next great WR" available worth the #1 overall pick. Plus just signed Bowe to a big deal.

Secondary guys sucked that year as evidenced by Dee Milliner's crapfest of a rookie year.

Clearly no LBs worth the #1 overall pick.

The cleanest group, by far, was the OL group at the top. Fisher just happened to be the one that they judged to have the highest ceiling, plus he would theoretically allow us to move on from Albert in 2014 or trade him in that draft (which didn't happen).

Great post. There's no evidence that Eric Fisher can be a great LT (worthy of 1.1) other than hope and the fact he was drafted high/well-regarded leading up to the draft.

EXACTLY!

They picked a LT because it was "safe" and "best value" and "No. 1 overall has to be able to play right away and can't afford to sit." They chose higher floor over higher ceiling.

Dee Millner wasn't bad. And we wouldn't be talking about taking a CB in the first this year.

ROFL

INFINITELY better than Fisher's rookie year.

I disagree, Joeckel was the higher floor and Fisher was the higher ceiling last year at this time. Also, they new they weren't re-signing Albert imo. They even flirted with trading him. That was a big piece of the puzzle. The draft had several good looking tackle prospects. Taking a OT was a no brainer if you really think about it. Fans should have seen that coming from a mile away. It's ironic to hear some talk about "hope" imo. Hope is why they don't like Fisher. They didn't get the QB they hoped for and want to be right.

Several good looking OT prospects that wouldn't be picked in the first 20 picks this year.

Seriously? Did you even watch him play? They have a great front 7 and he looked like donkey sh*t pretty much the entire year.

Milliner was benched for poor play at least 3 times last year, in favor of a UDFA. And he was a top 10 pick.

Cooper had a better rookie year than Milliner did and you would have rather had Milliner? ROFL

Yep, it was a shitty draft class and everyone knew it.

Yeaaah, sooo much better! ROFL

Where would we be right now if we hadn't have taken an OT #1 last year and finished the 2013 Season with the same result and were picking at #23? We'd be in the same financial situation and unable to re-sign Albert. We'd be desperate for a LT. To get a decent one we'd have to trade up in this draft. We don't really have the ammo to trade up and would have to give a 2015 second day pick. Dorsey recognized all of this last year. He wants to build through the draft and doesn't want to part with those picks. He should really get some credit. The top three OTs are better this year for sure but we would never have been able to get them. I'm happy we won last year. I'm happy we are picking at #23. I'm happy we have a real QB. I'm happy we aren't pigeon holed into taking a OT with the first pick.

Taking Fisher was a good move when you look at the big picture.

Plus....it's a well known fact that you can ONLY find a good LT in the 1st round. You can't find them anywhere else in the draft.

That's kind of besides the point though. If you left it up to this bunch on CP, they would have drafted Geno Smith and the Chiefs would be picking #1 overall again this year.

Then they would draft Johnny Manziel. ROFL

Well, now that I know you're Blackbob.

I am beginning to see where you are coming from. Some will never be happy taking an offensive linemen in the first round. The irony is most of our success over the last 25 years came from being built around the o-line. I like that the new regime has put an emphasis on that position group and started with a OT. This place will be a riot if we take an offensive linemen in the first round this year. People will go ballistic.

Wasn't even ranked in the top 60 OTs by PFF. Really gonna bet on him to hold up against the defenses we'll be facing next year?:harumph:

Tough to lose a quality Left Tackle, but Albert isn't worth the money he is going to get. Over the last few years, I felt Albert came in to camp a tad out of shape and had to play himself into it. Also, I get tired of a player with his potential constantly getting dinged/hurt/missing games. It seems over the last few years, he is routinely questionable.

Stephenson and Fisher will need to step up in 14'.
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They'd probably be in the same spot: Letting Albert walk for money concerns and looking at Don Stephenson as the starting LT.

One difference is that we would have seen Stephenson play a full season at RT and have a better idea of how good he can be. The other is that they'd be looking at a different solution for the other tackle spot.

Drafting Fisher was superior to drafting Joeckel, but that doesn't mean it was the right pick.

Those who don't like OT at No. 1 overall (like me) would prefer to see someone drafted there who can be a real impact player. Not "maybe top 10 at his position if everything works" out ceiling.

That's not just about "QB." Richardson, Austin, etc. also would have fit. I wasn't one of them, but there were some on this board banging the drum for both of those guys, among others.

Perhaps draft at Oline every OTHER year. We didn't draft Willie Roaf, yet it as an excellent trade. If Oline is a priority then go nuts out and get the best guys they can find, coach em' up and play hungry.

People went ballistic when we drafted nothing but defensive linemen with our top picks and still had a shitty defensive line.

I WONDER IF THOSE TWO THINGS MIGHT BE RELATED....

... And how successful have those teams been when it counted?

Well the tape doesn't lie. So if youbring guys in you think are studs and they play like duds, the coaches should get the opportunity to fix their flaws. But, if they are too dumb or numb or lazy or whatever, thats on the scout that thought they were a good fit. There is a reason for bad play.

Again, it's about expectations. Jackson turned out to be solid and Poe is really good. You aren't going to hit on every pick. It's like Dorsey recently said about Ted Thompson. The goal is to bat .500. If you can do that in the draft, you are doing a really good job.

Also, defensive linemen are notoriously slow to develop.

Do you wish we hadn't taken Poe after taking Dorsey and Jackson? I'm not sure I get your point.

What if it wasn't linemen? Would you be fine taking QB after QB in the first hoping to hit on one? Or, WR after WR like Detroit did? That sort of thing can sink a franchise. You gotta have the horses up front. It sounds to me like some just don't like drafting linemen early. I get how it's easy to like the flashy skill position players but I am a build through the lines kind of guy.

Some people are always going to go ballistic when their team doesn't take who they want. Nobody wanted Poe and everyone loves him now. it's about the big picture.

Off the top of my head didn't we make the playoffs like 8 years in a row? isn't that still a record? I like to win. Winning the Superbowl is tough. If we win one in my lifetime I'll be happy. Winning is a lot more fun than losing. that's all I know.

Who have been the most successful teams in recent history? Look at their play in the post-season.

The teams that end up winning are the teams that can protect, and the teams that can disrupt. In other words, championships really are won in the trenches.

Why did we lose to the Colts? We couldn't get to Andrew Luck.

Why did Broncos easily beat everyone except for the Seahawks in the playoffs? Their protection was good up until they had to face the Seahawks.

Why did the Seahawks win the SB in such dominant fashion? They were disruptive everywhere along their DL which helped their secondary tremendously.

Ravens and 49ers - both great fronts, defensively and offensively

Giants? Absolutely dominant up front on defense and their OL was also solid. They destroyed Brady's pockets all day long in route to a SB win.

Etc etc etc.

T.J. was anything but "solid" for most of his career. Two decent seasons does not mean it was a good pick. You need to get more than a 2 down player who turned out to be OK from a top 5 pick. It was a reach. He never really improved his skill set so he could be used in all situations. All he did is get better at what he does so in the end, you had a guy who was decent 2 down player.

Are you that ****ing stupid?

2001- Eric Downing (3rd)
2002- Ryan Sims (1st), Eddie Freeman (2nd)
2004- Junior Siavii (2nd)
2006- Tamba Hali (1st)
2007- Turk McBride (2nd), Tank Tyler (3rd)
2008- Glenn Dorsey (1st)

8 drafts and 8 defensive linemen drafted with the Chiefs top 3 picks. Only one of them wasn't a huge flaming piece of shit (Hali).

So when we get to 2009 and we draft Tyson Jackson at #3 overall, are you still curious why people were furious as **** that we drafted him?

Hell, let's go ahead and extend this to Dontari Poe. ****ing great. Now we have 11 defensive linemen drafted with the Chiefs top 3 picks in 12 seasons, and only TWO of them have worked out. And one of them doesn't even play on the defensive line anymore.

"But it was a bad draft year to have a top pick!"

SO PICK SOMETHING ELSE, DIPSHIT

We didn't make the playoffs 8 years in a row.

Also, the 90s were filled with some terrible ****ing drafts. That doesn't mean terrible drafts are the key to winning games.

Finally, those teams drafted offensive linemen when they needed them and they sat the **** down. And they didn't misfire on OL picks when they had them. They also found guys like Dave Szott in the 7th round. Not all of their picks were 1st round dudes.

**** OL and **** you.

I liked the Poe pick because it was an upside pick, a high risk/high reward play. They drafted him based on his ceiling, not where he was on draft day. Fisher is the same thing.

TJ was a case of reaching to fill a need. No one in that draft class has panned out to be a dominant 5-tech.

Looking at that top 20, hell the top 10, makes me cringe. There have been some seriously crappy draft classes.

All busts/back-up level players: Jason Smith(2), Aaron Curry(4), Mark Sanchez(5), DHB(7), Aaron Maybin(11), Larry English(16), Josh Freeman(17)

Guys who are decent but haven't lived up to their draft status because of one reason or another: Tyson Jackson (3), Andre Smith (6), B.J. Raji (9), Knowsho Moron (12), Malcolm Jenkins (14), Robert Ayers (18), Brandon Pettigrew (20), Jeremy Maclin (19)

Even the only good to really good players from the top 20 in that draft class have some issue with them:

Stafford, 1 overall: Is likely only a marginal starter in this league without Calvin Johnson. Not smart and sloppy in his mechanics.

Brian Orakpo, 13 overall: Most dominant of the top 20 but has issues staying healthy. Still hasn't played to his full potential.

Brian Cushing, 15th overall: Showed flashes of being a dominant player but how much of that was due to PEDs? Also health issues.

Michael Crabtree, 10 overall: Lack of speed limits his big play ability and questions about his effort.

but you're talking about pass rushers, not space eaters. play makers vs gap fillers. take D-Lineman all they want, if they destroy the pocket, crush QBs and force TOs

I think the 2008 draft hurts a ton. Could have taken:

Ryan Clady over Glenn Dorsey.

Aquib Talib/DRC over Albert.

Then, here's the kicker:

Calais Campbell over Flowers.

Clady>> Albert

Talib/DRC>> Flowers

Campbell>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dorsey

Yup, I agree completely. I could give 2 sh*ts about a 2-gapping fatty, I don't want those. I want destroyers of worlds, not Atlas.

Carr wanted to be a hometown Cowboy & it looks like Albert wants to be a hometown Dolphin. THere is now accounting for taste.

D-linemen take time to develop. Rarely are they bad asses right out of the gate. I agree that no one understood that pick at the time but it could have been worse. It was definitely a reach. Most people wanted Smith, Curry, Crabtree, or Raji. How does he compare to those guys in terms of production and value? I think he equals or exceeds all of them.

In the last ten years, we've taken four d-linemen in the first round and three have worked out. Two have been studs. I like it and that's hitting that 50% mark that Ted Thompson talks about.

CP really sucked taking some of those guys in the 2nd round on but he did nail it on Jarred Allen. I really wanted Ryan Kalil when we took McBride. That was the biggest draft question mark ever imo. Most were excited about Tank Tyler and I get that one.

As far as Seattle goes, the key to beating Denver wasn't their pass rushing ability. It was their long arms and ability to knock down passes. They destroyed Denver because their d-line stopped the short passing game dead in its tracks by knocking down passes. We don't need twenty sacks out of our d-line to take the next step. We just need them to be a little more disruptive. I'd bet money that knocking down passes is going to be a major emphasis when offseason mini camps come along and throughout training camp.

ROFL

I'm sure it had nothing to do with that fact that people like you were here telling us how "safe" it was. What a ****ing turd of a pick.

Milliner finished the year with his 3 best games and was the Week 17 DPOW. Fisher finished the year in the ****ing hot tub. AND we had our best offensive performance of the year without him. Imagine that.

We could have had Cooper AND Milliner. I didn't say anything about Cooper. And yes, I absolutely would have rather had Milliner than Fisher.

I for one will be glad when tomorrow comes and this deal is done....we will all be able to move on.

You're right, it was seven in a row and not eight. I'll take that kind of consistency every time over one playoff appearance every 3-4 years.

I'd love to be the Braves for example. Fourteen playoff appearances in a row with one World Series win is nice. Maybe better than two world series wins in three years and no playoffs for the next eleven?

It's nice when your team is consistently good and in the hunt.

So 3 seemingly decent games makes him great? Wtf?:eek: Doesn't seem like you even watched him play. His 2 INTs against the Phins were flukes.

1st one Wallace fell down on a curl route, easy pick for Milliner to make.

2nd one Tannehill had pressure in his face and forced an overthrown pass to Wallace into a group of 5 Jet Defenders and only 2 Dolphins.

Milliner was terrible for pretty much the entire season and the only reason why he was even starting was because the Jets picked him at #9 overall to replace Revis and didn't want to look bad in making that mistake of a pick. He was benched 3 times for a former UDFA; Rex, the guy coaching for his job, pulled and benched a player that his GM hand-picked at #9 overall in the draft for a UDFA multiple times in the season.

If that doesn't tell you how bad Milliner was, I don't know what else will, lol.

Seems like all you did was look at his stats and went, "Oh, those look decent for a rookie. Musta been good." ROFL

Playoff appearances don't mean much if the team isn't built to win once you get there.

The Braves comparison isn't valid because the Braves managed to win a championship in there. We didn't. And no, 14 playoff appearances with 1 championship is not better than 2 championships in 3 years and then 10 years without. I'd trade place with the Broncos ANY DAY. 1997-1998 is still PLENTY fresh.

And finally, let's not kid ourselves. This team hasn't been "in the hunt" since Joe Montana left.

Unfortunately, it really was as "safe" as you could have gone in that draft.

Dude, I didn't say he was great. I said I'd rather have him than Fisher.

Stop acting like a moron.

Safe is for pussies.

No surprise this team hasn't won shit in decades.

And by all means, be the GM that drafts the mediocre Milliner #1 overall when you just signed FAs Sean Smith and Dunta Robinson. Yeah, woulda been such a good move.

Yeah. You can play this game with any draft any year. You're the first I've seen to question the Flowers pick. Also Charles >>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone you mentioned.

Better than drafting a mediocre right tackle when you already had Branden Albert, Donald Stephenson, and 3 other high draft picks on the line.

You're not going to win this argument. Fisher was a horrible pick. There's no other way to look at it unless you're just a ****ing homer.