I'm sure Vallot could also play first. It isn't a position that you need to focus on in the minors. If you can develop hitters you have plenty of potential guys at 1B.

Maybe as a RFer if the price wasnt too crazy

They might have an idea. The Diamondbacks got their new deal a year early. The Cardinals got their new deal two years early. Maybe that won't happen in KC, but it's not an absurd idea. And their TV ratings are unbelievable for any sports team. If they can keep it afloat they are going to make a lot of money. Not Dodger money, but they'll do very well.

If Moose comes back and plays well he'll get far more than $12M. I think Cain is probably gone. Hosmer might be a $20-25M player, but they just gave Gordon $18M a year. It's not unthinkable.

I believe it's unthinkable.

I guess. There's only two years crossover with Gordon's contract. Even if they signed Gordon again, he won't be making $18M a year. Plus there'll be money freed up if our infield is Cuthbert/Mondesi/2B. I think the bigger issue is another rich team coming in and driving up the price out of our range.

Anyone and everyone of consequence is set to be free after the 2017 season.

Regardless of what anyone says, the Royals traded five pitchers last year in pursuit of a title. They didn't know if it would happen or not but fortunately, it did.

Those trades in no way guaranteed that they'd return to the playoffs in 2016 or 2017, let alone the World Series.

2020 is a long time from now and Fox isn't likely to give away free money.

Wow, so much to catch up on.

Re: Trading Hosmer, Moustakas, Cain, Davis, Escobar, Duffy or any other free agent following 2017...That's only going to happen if they're way out of it at the break next year.

They're going to make a concerted effort to keep Hosmer in KC. It probably won't be enough, but they're going to try for him. They do have, on their side, his eye towards his legacy (in baseball and towards the Royals). He sees the benefits beyond dollar signs of staying put. If he signs, it will be a Gordon-type situation where he takes a competitive but slightly lesser offer. But it's not out of the question.

Yes, $25 million seems like a safe bet for Hosmer on the open market. But with the Giants tied long-term to Belt, the Angels having no spending money, the Orioles making a huge long-term commitment to Chris Davis (and with a superior player in Machado looming as a free agent), the Yankees having a couple of great young options coming through their farm system, the number of big money suitors for a 1b may be less than people would think.

KC will also likely have low-cost options at SS, 2B, and possibly 3b to balance that big contract for Hosmer out.

If they find an OF and SP through the farm by the end of next season, that helps as well.

If this team can find a way to get through the rest of this tough stretch at or slightly above .500, I like its chances in a stretch drive as they get healthier across the board.


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But the rotation though...

The legacy thing is a whole other part of it, but that plays into it too. It just makes sense. We have other infielders. I think Cuthbert and Mondesi will become solid players. Dozier is on the way. Who knows if we find another guy like Merrifield. Hosmer has turned into the leader of this team. Replacing Gordon's contract with Hosmer's might cost us $7-8 million more a year, but much of that should be offset by TV money... especially if the Royals continue to have the best ratings in baseball. They can afford one contract like that, and at this point Hosmer should be that guy.

The Royals currently have three legit starters, if you count Duffy, who's unproven long term and Ventura, who's a hothead. As far as I can tell, there's not much, if any, relief coming from AAA or AA in the next year.

Payroll is maxed out.

Wouldn't it be an absolute goldmine stroke of luck for the Royals to even be in the hunt a year from now?

Personally, I'm all good with trading assets for players and rebuilding quickly but why is this on the back burner instead of the front burner?

Is this because Ned decided to come back?

The TV contract is what it is until 2020.

It sucks and anyone associated with it should have been fired a long time ago.

For the one millionth time, I know how TV contracts work.

That's only two years of what will probably be a 6 or 7 year contract for Hosmer.

And as much as you want to say otherwise, FOX negotiated both St. Louis' and Arizona's new contracts before the previous one expired. This is not a debatable point. It happened. Will they do that for the Royals? I have zero idea... but painting it as completely impossible is false too.

I don't think there's any reason for Fox or any other network to give the Royals $100 million per year in advance of their contract expiring.

Call me cynical.

You realize that Championships are typically the point of rooting for sports teams, right?

I don't give a **** if zero people outside of KC know about 2015. The Royals did what I thought they would never do in my lifetime. They gave this city a title.

We traded five pitchers. I would have given more. It's the nature of the beast when rooting for a small market team. We're not the Dodgers. We're going to be able to sign the Greinke's or the Cueto's. We have to do what we can with the tools we have.

And those trades? They netted us a second basemen who played out of his mind in October and a starter who pitched two two hitters in the postseason. We likely don't win a championship without them.

Your line of reasoning isn't uncommon. I see this all over Facebook (usually from people broken up that we lost Finny), but I swear it's a symptom of rooting for a perrienial loser. The "it's always next year" mindset has made people forget what we're hoping to accomplish "next year." But you know, Next year is here. We won the damn thing, and until late October, we are the kings of Major League Baseball.

Ask the Cubs, Indians, Rockies, or any fanbase who hasn't won it all. I have a feeling they would trade with us in a heartbeat.

They get $20 mil off the books after this season, assuming they decline the options on Morales and Medlen. Davis, Volquez, Escobar and Hochevar also have options after this year but I am assuming those will be picked up.

They only have $73.5 mil committed in 2018, assuming that they decline options on Infante and Young. There's A LOT of spots to fill but 1B is one of them.

They have 6 players currently signed for the 2018 team, along with the younger guys (Cuthbert, Merrifield, etc.) that won't be free agents yet and are on those 1 year deals.

You're going to get the rebuild/retool you want, just in 2018.

They won't retool for 2017 because KC returns all key position players next year with the exception of Morales, whose mutual option will be declined by the team, and it returns most of the bullpen (Hochevar likely leaves as a FA).

The rotation will definitely be a question mark. What Duffy and Ventura do the rest of the year certainly will be a factor in how big a question mark it will be. They both have immense talent.

Ian Kennedy's HR trouble on the road is a warning sign, but he will be a piece of that rotation.

Jason Vargas will be back from his Tommy John (18 mo. Removed) and an option. Mike Minor also will be in the mix.

They'll be shopping for at least one SP in free agency, in all likelihood. And they'll find a way to make that work, with the salary coming off the books (which is only a slight gain by the time you include salary increases from contracts and arbitration) and a potential increase. I'll believe it's maxed out when they stop adding big salary to the payroll in the offseason. Has happened for many years in a row, and all indications are that they'll continue to do so to max out their ability to contend in this window.


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Volquez and Hochevar are also on mutual options, if I recall correctly, so those are unlikely to be engaged.


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You're correct. They're mutual options so there's a good chance they decline them. That's another $17 mil off the books in 2017 if they decline their options.

I was fervently against the Cueto trade last year, so my opinion isn't a symptom of rooting for a perennial loser. The Zobrist trade didn't bother me as much but as you've said, the Royals won the WS and no one can take that from them.

But anyone could see that their pitching assets would be depleted from those trades, regardless of where they were projected in the majors. The Royals are a small market team with limited resources and a terrible TV contract. Expecting them to compete for a WS for the third straight year with a patchwork pitching staff is tenuous at best.

What would be a realistic expectation of a 34 year pitcher coming off UCL surgery? 80% of his former self? Higher?

We gave up our 6th or 7th best relief pitcher and AAAA guy for a legit starter who helped win us the World Series. Sign me up for that every year.

And a top-30 MiLB prospect in Cody Reed, our former 2nd rounder.

Yep. Reed was the one with legit star potential in that trade.

Hmmmm, what would I rather have? Cody Reed OR A WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONSHIP?

TNSTAAPP

The Royals traded two pitchers of consequence in those deals: Sean Manaea and Cody Reed.

Brandon Finnegan is a long-term reliever because of his size and body. He lost the 30 pounds he gained during the Dec 2014-Feb 2015 time period, but he's still a two-pitch guy who's been up and down in the NL.

John Lamb is just a guy. Likely a AAAA type pitcher at this point. Has an ERA nearing 6.

The other guy traded to the A's was also a AAAA guy.

Reed has big-time stuff and could be an all-star starter. Same with Manaea. Both have some warts as well (Manaea - control, Reed - third pitch).

Manaea actually has an ERA over 6 right now. Reed is still at AAA. The only guy from that group of five who actually might be helping KC this year is Finnegan, and that would likely be out of the pen.

All things considered, small price to pay for two pieces that completed a World Series winning roster.



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90 percent of guys who take the full rehab process (and don't try to rush back in 9 months) recover completely. Of those, maybe ten-twenty percent see slightly improved velocity due to the reconstruction and rehab.

I would expect Vargas to come back and again be a solid rotation guy who absorbs innings for you and plays up a bit for KC due to the ballpark and defense. That he's a "crafty" lefty helps in that, I think.

But there surely is the possibility he is a John Lamb and never comes all the way back.

Minor has more upside than that (he could be a quality no. 3 starter if fully recovered) but also is dealing with shoulder problems, which are much less predictable.

Still, odds are decent that at least one of those two guys gives them a solid back-end piece to add to the rotation.


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I mean, it's 1B. It's where you put your fat guy who owns a glove that can hit. The fact that Hosmer refuses to want to learn another position kind of pisses me off. He is quick for his size, he has a big arm. Yet he plays 1B, where defensive prowess doesn't matter as much as the other positions.

In theory that sounds easy enough until you look at the Royals 20 year history at 1st between George Brett and Eric Hosmer. Also fat guys that can hit aren't cheap on the FA market.

Plus his defense at first has been a gamechanger for us in October (inb4 BUCKNER MOMENT!1!)

His glove may have won us Game 2 against the Astros this year plus a host of games in 2014 (you know, the ones where literally every run mattered because we won 50% of them in extras).

He's left handed. There are only four defensive positions he can play, and he has not been great in the OF in limited looks (probably because he was a fat lefty as a kid/young teen and a tall lefty as a Hs player, so he never played out there).

That leaves 1B.


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Woulda been nice to keep Cueto + Zobrist (185M) instead of Gordon, Gopher Ball Ian, Soria and Young (181M). Hindsight is 20-20 I guess.



Also FG features Eric Hosmer in "An annual reminder from Eric Hosmer and Adam Jones".....as a player who's defensive stats so far may be inaccurate or potentially set to revert:
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/an-an...nd-adam-jones/

Oh sure. Keeping Zobrist and Cueto make sense to keep around..

Assuming the Royals were in the National League and are being managed by Joe Maddon.



....


dipshit.

That made zero sense^

Cueto wouldn't be near as effective with a full year in the American League and Zobrist likely wants to end his career on Maddon's squad.

It's not ****ing rocket science.

The guy is a gold glove, All Star big leaguer who is about to make serious bank. Why would he want to change positions, and for that matter, why would we ask him to? Due to his left-handedness, he's probably just a left fielder if not a 1st baseman (very few make late transitions to right field). And he's obviously not playing in left for us. I don't understand why this is even a topic. He's an outstanding defensive player, and even at 1st that has value. Ask Esky and Moose if it matters if Hos is over there instead of a slug.

Zobrist took less money to go to the Cubs. I don't know how many times people are going to have to mention that. Maddon's there, and Zobrist grew up in Illinois. I feel like the next four years we're going to hear this "should've re-signed Zobrist" fantasy over and over and over again.

I would wager the next two. If he regresses people will suddenly forget this argument. Just like when Melky got busted for roids and Wil Myers didn't become Barry Bonds.

I'm already tired of it.

Nobody has the slightest clue what went on in Zobrists (or Cuetos) mind. But supposing it's true, it doesn't change the fact we made bad moves this winter.

Zo (2.9) + Cueto (2.8) = 5.7 war
Soria (0.3) + Gordon (0.1) + Gopher Ball (0.1) + Young (-0.8) = -0.3 war



Yeah, we spent 180M on guys who have been worthless so far. Literally, replacement level.

Very possible. He does have great plate discipline, so he might age okay at the plate, we'll see.

Still, the argument of counting dollars is completely disingenuous because the Cubs didn't offer the most money. He was bent on going to the Cubs.

I think he would make more money in RF. The only reason he isn't good at it is because he doesn't want to be. He has the physical tools to do it. There is really a small difference in a great defensive 1B and a below average one. Compare that to the difference between a great SS and a bad one and it's astronomical.

Really? Zobrist is from Illinois and loved playing for Maddon.

But don't take it from me.

"In the end, our heart wanted to be in Chicago as a family," Zobrist said. "I wanted to play for this team, wanted to play for Joe Maddon again, and I want to win a championship as a Chicago Cub."

"I think in the end, the main thing that we talked about kind of at the beginning of the process that was going to be important is proximity to [Nashville], where we live, proximity to my family. I grew up in Illinois, my wife's family, all those things."

Unless you think he's just a lying sociopath. Him and his wife don't strike me as that, but good luck with that theory.

Zobrist isn't dumb enough to publicly say "Yeah, me and my family have no interest in playing for one particular major league team. **** those assholes." right during contract negotiations.

He's played first base since he was a kid. Suggesting he now move to a new position, after establishing himself as a gold glove first baseman is bizarre. And if you think the difference between Hos at 1st instead of Billy Butler is a small one, then I don't know what to tell you. It's absolutely less valuable than some other positions, but that doesn't mean it doesn't matter.

At the end of the day, performance isn't predictable. Had we re-signed Zobrist and he faltered, and Gordon signed with the Cardinals and he stayed healthy and played well --- this place would have been a zoo. It very well could have happened that way, you just don't know.

As a GM, you hope to get more right than wrong and then catch lightning in a bottle for a stretch. That's exactly what happened.

If we really want to get back to discussing an ongoing problem that can be fixed right now, I see Esky is back in the 2 hole tonight. What's it going to take to move him down? He's all but admitted that he's lost right now with his sacrifice bunting early in games. Put Colon or Fuentes up in the 2 hole.

8 first basemen make more than highest paid right fielder. Hosmer is 12th highest paid first basemen and he is still in arbitration years.

Duh. Nor is he going to say after signing somewhere "Yeah, me and my family has no particular interest in playing for the team I signed with."

You're right as usual, PB. A tweet from Jeffery Flanagan carries a lot more weight about Zobrist's intentions than a direct quote from Zobrist.

That tweet IS a direct quote from Zobrist, twerp.

And it was made 3 DAYS after the Royals won the World Series. Looooong before he started contract negotiations with anyone.

Surely you are not that dense. Although I wouldn't put it past you.

Baseball is stupid. I have no other response than that, it's super easy to be a 1B. Almost anybody can do it that is tall. Alot of guys can't possibly play in the OF due to their tools and skills.

I think we are now seeing a shift of paying 1B less though. The trend will continue, I suspect.

What I'm saying is if Hosmer was versatile, and could play 1B and both the OF. He would be of more value. There is just no reason he shouldn't be able to do it.

I don't care what you all say I Miss Zobrist! And the what ifs are silly. Zobrist has had a far better career than Gordon and most likely finish his steady as Gordon will finish his with the bat as always up and down. Brief moments of brilliance followed by long stints of swinging and missing. Comparing those two is crazy their careers have taken completely different levels of success, Zobrist could be mentioned as HOF worthy Gordon not so much.

Oh and as far as Cueto goes he is where he needs be AL bats pound him over the long haul.

ROFL

.267/.347/.432
.268/.358/.434

Help me out here, which one is which?

Here, we'll break it down by WAR too (at Age 31)

At Age 31: 29.8 Career WAR
At Age 31: 27.8 Career WAR

Any reason you selected age 31?

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You never saw Mike Jacobs play?

Once the Cubs became heavily interested in Zobrist and made him a strong, competitive offer, that situation became much like Gordon and KC. It would have taken a back-breaking offer to sway him elsewhere.

Talking about it like it was a simple choice between Gordon or Zobrist is living outside reality.

Re: Hosmer... Have you watched him try to shag flies? Did you see the games he played in RF a few years ago?

He has no instincts out there. He was brutal. Horrible routes, couldn't read the ball off the bat. Instincts matter in baseball, especially on defense. If he got demoted and spent a season learning it all over again and he worked at it as maniacally as Alex Gordon, he might have become a good RF. It's more than just having the physical tools, though.

As for Dayton's offseason, it doesn't have the magic dust sprinkle his 2014/15 one did, that's for sure.

I still like Kennedy and think he's going to be a solid addition when all is said and done. He's had back-to-back bad starts ... On the road... In HR-happy parks.

KC rightfully builds its staff with flyball pitchers to play to its home park. Sometimes, that bites you based on matchup.

Chris Young was a cheap signing, but it hasn't worked so far. If they dialed his role back and used him as a long reliever/piggy back, might still get some production there.

Soria has been about as expected. He isn't unhittable like Davis or Herrera, but he still is a pretty effective reliever who is above average.

Three years on him probably is going to hurt before all is said and done, but it also makes sure they're at least 3-deep with good arms in 17, too.


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You can run it for 2011-2015 (last five years) and get basically the same thing.




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Well?

Very misleading considering Alex was out nearly half a season with the leg. Nice try though its not that Alex isn't appreciated for what he is but on a whole I choose Zobrist.

Speaking of Alex are we coming up to the end of his 15 days on disabled list. Anyone hear how he is coming along?

Heyward also took less money to play for Maddon & the Cubs too.


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Alex Gordon will begin hitting off a tee today. There's still no set timeline for his return, Ned says.

per Rustin Dodd



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I saw Billy Butler play and it was even somewhat passable for that fat ass.

The point was that statements like "Zobrist has had a much better career" and Zobrist is a borderline hall of famer" we're not really on target.


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The statistics I put span over the entirety of both players careers. It was only for WAR that I selected Age 31. I did this because it was Alex's age at the beginning of this season. It would have been disingenuous to compare both players career WAR when Zo is four years older than Gordo.

The reality is that the two are actually very similar players. Both run hot and cold and go from looking like an MVP to Desi Relaford. Zo just happens to be going through a scorching hot streak at the moment, but Gordo could very well do the same soon. It wasn't too long ago that Gordo had the HIGHEST WAR in the majors in 2014... Before coming back down to earth as he so often does.

I miss Zo too. But it was clear the dude wanted to retire with Maddon and pretending like he is unbelievably better than Gordo is a bit of a misfire. There's still a good chance that Gordo will outperform Zo during the span of their contracts.

I guess it just seems like Zobrist always killed us I am probably looking at that and not as a whole. I admit I am far from a baseball stats guy I feel like Zo fit a need we had a gaping hole at 2nd. Alex and I like him as well but felt we could fill that adequately. Now it looks as though Whit will be fine if Ned can part with you know who.

Honestly if we kept Zo over Gordo I would have found a way to deal with it. Both are exceptional people and athletes.

We may never see a Royals team as complete and talented as the 2015 Royals, and I am okay with that.

Will Myers is hitting like Bonds at the moment

Alcides Escobar is on pace for 564 outs this year. Baseball Reference's database cannot find a higher total, but it only goes back to 1901.


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The 2015 Royals post-deadline were quite-literally as perfect of a baseball team that anyone can ask for, much less a small-market club. What a ride that was, I always catch myself randomly watching 50 consecutive Youtube videos of last years squad. :thumb:

BTW, I sent you a pm.. not sure if it sent or not.

Also from Mellinger on Twitter --- Esky is 173 out of 173 in OPS for qualified hitters. The fact that he's still hitting at the top of the lineup leaves me --- dumbfounded. There's not another manager in baseball that would still have him up there. If he gets hot, like last year? Sure, bump him back up. But leaving him in front of Hosmer and Cain undercuts our offense.

Yeah. Healthy (playing 1B is helping with that) and raking.

He's hitting well enough right now that Preller might be able to undo the damage he did by trading Myers.


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Unrelated but scherzer is on.****ing fire.


8 s.o. in 9 batters against the cubs

He's hitting the cover off the ball, but Dayton's argument was that Myers would have growing pains similar to Hos and Moose. He sought the trade to get help in 2014 rather in 2016. Once people realized that he wasn't going to be an insta-star, the trade became much easier for our fanbase to swallow.

Ned

Just saw it! My inbox is almost full and I've been missing new messages. Expect a reply ASAP.

Still very far away, but good to see this kid has a performance like this in him

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Staumont has punched out 12 in 5 ip. 92-96(97-98); life. Plus CB 80-83; 11/5 w/ deep depth and hard bite. Generated s/m on both tn. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/royals?src=hash">#royals</a></p>&mdash; CJ Wittmann (@CJWittJr) <a href="https://twitter.com/CJWittJr/status/742510394309251073">June 14, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Glad that Shields wasn't traded to KC. There were some national talking heads and some folks here in CP thinking KC should get Shields back here.

That guy is done.