And so ends the greatest run of consistent excellence NCAA basketball has ever seen. We'll never see anything like it again.

and be bounced by a 12 seed

The NCAA most consecutive appearance streak didn’t end....

Grimes is atrocious. Outside passing, which he’s ok, he’s dogshit at every facet of the game. Biggest bust of Selfs tenure. Selby was better


He was 1-7 and had 1 board, 0 assists. Dogshit

What a run

I might flip shit here and there but the streak ending sucks.

Historic moment, what a run

Ha the hate about Lawson. Would KU even make the tournament with out Lawson? Dude is averaging 20/10 and people bag on him. This team is complete garbage without Lawson.

7-31 from three. Get blown out by Big 12 bottom feeder.

Miss me yet?

https://s3media.247sports.com/Upload...23/8223313.jpg

Lawson isn't the problem. He's not made of metal, but he's obviously a good player, and it's obvious he wants it. He works hard on the boards and gives effort on the defensive end. He's just limited athletically.

It occurred to me today, as they were talking on the radio about how his stats jump off the page, and he's a good look for B12POY, if he were on a better team, would he be getting the numbers he is? I'd bet not.

The radio said out of the 14 B12 titles, they've had the POY 5 times. Seems to support the argument. A good player on a lesser team can get more stats than an excellent player on an excellent team? :shrug:

One more point on Lawson, I absolutely love a developed post game. It is ****ing criminal that they can't teach these prospects any nuanced post game other than "DUNK STUPID!" I mean, an efficient post move against an especially lesser opponent is still a valid approach to ****ing basketball, damn it. A few simple lessons in leverage and footwork and some of these incredible ****ing specimens of basketball royalty could get easy ****ing points. Get off my lawn! /old man basketball rant.

Lol.

John Wooden and UCLA say ‘hi’.

Definitely not. This guy sucked.

14>13

Against far tougher competition.

Probably not as well on a better team simply because he wouldn’t get the ball as much but he’s done well under the circumstances.

:rolleyes:

If you honestly think 14 CONFERENCE titles in a row is more impressive than 10 NATTY’s in a 12 year span, then I don’t think there’s really any need for further discussion at this point.

And as far as ‘against tougher competition’ goes, the Big 12 has been notoriously weak during KU’s conference title run. This is backed up by the performance of the Big 12 in the NCAA Tourney over that time span. Only Kansas has been a consistent tournament performer.

Yeah. Just horrible. He started for a Final Four team and one of the Top 2 teams in CBB last year.

Considering the competition and what the NCAA tournament/NCAA itself actually was like then, yeah, it's far more impressive than rolling over a bunch of far outclassed schools in 25 team single elimination tournaments. So you're right, I guess there isn't.


This myth again? It's statistically been the strongest conference in the country over that time (KenPom, RPI, Sagarin, etc). We go through this every year.

And he still sucked for just about that entire time (at least from January on). Thankfully Graham, Svi, and Newman were all incredibly good.

What are the odds that KU is significantly better next year (which they’ll need to be to win the conference)? Likely, we’ll lose the conference by two games, but we got our asses beat several times along the way.

To me, I see a few players who can improve the most:

1. Quentin Grimes (or Grimey as he likes to be called -for you Simpsons fans): literally anything will be better than what he contributed this year. He was awful, but I believe the ability could be there. I’d really like to see him focus on being great at just one thing-whether it’s his shooting, ball handling, passing, rebounding, defense, or whatever. Just find something that he can do and contribute with every game.

2. Ochai Agbaji: really just needs to settle in and get more comfortable within the system. Tons of talent. He’ll be a good one.

3. Devon Dotson: Id like to see him become a better outside shooter. That’ll open up the driving lanes for him big time.

4. David McCormack: he’s super raw. I’d love to see Danny Manning get fired and come back to work with him.

I’m not really expecting anyone else to get that much better than they were this year. I think we know who everyone else is.

I’m also not expecting a huge lift from Doke being back. He’s suffered 4 injuries in 3 years. We have no reason to expect him to stay healthy next year. He’s a bonus if available.

Well you got your wish ncaa **** you!

Well, that’s awesome. So how come the Big 12 can’t perform come NCAA Tourney time? Stage fright? Just dumb luck?? Something else???

https://www.ncaa.com/news/basketball...h-madness-1985

This is since 85, when the Tourney went to a 64 team setup. See how the Big 12 compares with other conferences in the 64 team era.

But, never mind, you’re right. Beating the likes of Iowa State, Kansas State and Oklahoma year in and year out for 14 straight years is WAY more impressive than 10 National Championships in 12 years.

Solid take.

assesing blame? Is it that time now?

• Grimes- lottery pick my ass. WTF happened here

• Self- either he overestimated Grimes abilities to contribute or coach him up. AND pulls a red shirt off? Why did he have one on to start with? Still think Self is the best college BB coach in America. But, he has some responsibility for this mess.

• Vick - reports of locker room issues are rampant. Really ****ed up our season.
  Dotson could be a candidate for player of the year in his junior or senior season. But wasnt this season. P

I wouldn't be surprised to see that it did. Once it's all said and done the NCAA is likely going to take away last years run as well as probably the Big 12 title. It probably won't be official for another year or two though. Last year seems tainted now that DeSosa has been declared ineligible this and next year.

It was a great run. Maybe this relieves some pressure on a very young team and they play a little looser going forward. This is something a HOF coach can use to motivate a team come tourney time.

KU will be a first rd exit.

Team is ****ing terrible.

Who can say? What I can tell you is that it isn’t statistically meaningful and nothing remotely comparable to a full 30+ season of games.

As you’d know being a MU fan, sometimes in the tournament you can have a great team and just lose to a disgustingly bad Norfolk State randomly who you’d beat 99 times out of 100. There’s often no rhyme or reason for it.

Grimes being a disaster was probably the biggest failing of this team.

LMAO!

It’s mind numbingly hilarious.

There are actual Kansas fans (KCC being one) that think Bill Self’s 14 straight conference title streak with one natty is more impressive than UCLA’s 13 straight conference title streak with 8 natty’s over that time span. Or UCLA’s 10 natty’s in 12 years!?!

I mean, what can you even do with that? You can’t even have a legit discussion with someone who actually believes that . . . . .

Which is crazy, as they were a preseason pick to finish 7th in the Big XII

Are y'all special? UCLA was a pro-team in the college game. Kansas's streak of 14 straight is more impressive than UCLA's 13. That really isn't debatable.

Now if you want to talk about the failings of some really damn good squads to win titles in that span, you have a legitimate point. KU should have had a couple more titles, at least.

Which is why Beard is the easy choice for B12 COtY

Agreed.

Why not Drew? He has nothing. Got to 10 wins in this league, no home court advantage, nothing. He’s my pick

Did they fail in the tournament? Or did Self get them to overachieve in the regular season?

I’d argue that 2007, 2010, 2011, 2016, and 2017 were teams that failed in the tournament. All of them were National Championship or bust teams (yet none even made the Final Four).

2005, 2006, 2009, 2013, and 2015 probably overachieved in the regular season.

2012 and 2018 probably overachieved in both the regular season and tournament.

2008 did what they should’ve done, since they were the best overall team in the nation.

2014 was a throwaway tourney IMO, since they were so dependent on Embiid. Once he was out, they were done.

The Tourney today bears no resemblance to what it was. During the 1960s UCLA reign, the tourney was about 20-25 teams and was split into 2 brackets East/West. As you prob know, basketball has always been most pppulsr in the Northeast, and then in the BIG region. It’s never been popular in the South or the West.


UCLA’s half of the draw was never strong since the West doesn’t care about basketball. They had a virtual bye into the Semis. They WERE the best team most of the time but they’d have been knocked off a few times if they played East teams.


Proof? Sagarin released his 100-year all time rankings in 2009. UCLA was #2. There are almost no teams west of KU. (Utah 19, USC 25, Stanford 30). It’s all Northeast-BIG 10.

Because Tech is going to finish no worse than 13-5 and 2nd in conference, and in the top 15 in the Country with a Team that no one would have guessed would be this strong.

Drew has been good, but a clear #2 behind Beard, IMO

UCLA of the 60's and 70's say hi.

The Beakers are the Atlanta Braves of DI basketball.

This post was brought to you by the letter "Q"

Yeah anyone who thinks the conference streak is more impressive than John woodens ****ing UCLA is a moron and there looks to be plenty in here

Then UCLA was the Yankees of the 1950s.

I'm not one of them, I think UCLA was more impressive. But you acting incredulous about it shows you actually don't know a lot of the arguments, which are good ones.

The national title, for instance, was the same as going to the Sweet 16 back then.

That would make Mizzou what, the Milwaukee brewers of basketball?

More like the Brewers' AAA team, which is apparently the San Antonio Missions.

With only one national title in that span, you can't argue that it's more impressive than UCLA.

But winning at that level then is not the same as now. No one could possibly come close to doing what UCLA did in today's format. Which is why it never happens. Calipari is today's Wooden (in terms of talent acquired) and he's sitting on one title.

Moore too.

He could at least goddamned score at miss St or wherever it was

Well.......yeah.

I'm not a Mizzou basketball fan and my point still remains.

How've things been now that you're in a real conference? I seem to remember WSU fans saying the streak wasn't impressive because they could do the same thing if they had a shot.

lol WSU has fans?

Realtalk: I grew up in KS and I didn't know WSU even existed until I moved to Newton.

Odds Shark is on crack...I love KU, but no way our odds of winning the national title are that high. shit, all the games are on the road for Christ's sake.

OddsShark
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Updated odds to win the CBB National Championship:

Duke +210
Gonzaga/Virginia +800
Kentucky +900
UNC/Tennessee +1100
Michigan +1200
Michigan St. +1400
Nevada +2500
Kansas +2800
Texas Tech +3500
Iowa St./LSU/Wisconsin +4000
Houston/Marquette +5000
Auburn/Purdue/Villanova +5500

Ranking the 14 teams of the streak (from best to worst IMO):

1. 2008: Almost a perfect roster. They could do it all. Shared the conference, won the conference tourney, and won the national title. Best team in the nation in a great year for college basketball.

2. 2010: Loaded roster. Probably the best team Self has had on paper. Best rotation of big men in Kansas history (Aldrich, Morris Twins, T Rob, and Withey). Maybe the only weakness was consistency from 3. **** Farokmanesh Forever.

3. 2017: 16-2 conference record and the National POY. I still think Josh Jackson was the best freshman at KU in my lifetime (I was born in ‘89).

4. 2007: Another loaded roster. Conference champs and conference tourney champs. Very easily could’ve won a national title had they gotten past UCLA.

5. 2016: Very deep roster with a great back court and reliable front court. Conference champs that swept a great OU team with a senior Buddy Hield. Very well could’ve won a title had they not crumbled against Nova.

6. 2018: Hindsight is 20/20. A lot of us complained about them throughout the year, but they accomplished a lot. Conference title, conference tourney title, and a final four.

7. 2012: Conference champs and a final four. I held them down due to having practically no bench. Great starting 5 though.

8. 2011: **** VCU. The field opened up for them to win it all and they didn’t capitalize.

9. 2009: Sherron and Aldrich were awesome in their first years as starters. Beat out Blake Griffin for the conference title (even though he was out when we played).

10. 2013: Really solid starting 5. Withey was awesome all year. The backcourt and bench were inconsistent. Iowa State will forever hate this team.

11. 2014: Big names on this team (Wiggins, Embiid, Selden, Ellis, Mason), but too young and inconsistent. Probably should’ve been better than they were. Far too reliant on Embiid, as we saw once he was out.

12. 2015: They became kind of frustrating, especially Cliff Alexander. He never really seemed to click and then his eligibility issue came up. The Wichita State loss was a kick in the nuts. I liked Oubre though.

13. 2006: Pretty much all freshmen and sophomores. This team wasn’t supposed to win it. They laid the foundation for the 2008 team, but still...Bradley.

14. 2005: The last of the Roy era. Clearly a transitional team. And then...Bucknell.

I agree completely.

Wow. Iowa State has the best chance to win the conference? What happened to them? They’re down 14 at WVU!

Maybe I have a soft spot for that '12 team, but after what they did coming back against Mizzou in our last meeting and then in every game of the tournament after the first round...I'm glad I had a strong heart. I get the bench argument, but making the title game and being within 2 possessions of winning it all against an all time Kentucky team ranks them much higher for me. Other than that I can't argue with your list.

2011&12 are under ranked there ^^^

2012 is one of my favorites for sure. I just have a hard time putting them ahead of those other teams that were super deep and consistent.

It’s easy to forget how much the 2012 team struggled early. They looked horrendous when they lost to Davidson at Sprint Center. I’m judging all of these teams on the totality of their seasons.

If I ranked heart, they would probably be number 1.

Guard play holds 2011 back for me. By the end of the year, they were primarily rolling with an inconsistent Tyshawn, Reed, and Morningstar. All nice players at the time, but not a great starting group.

The Morris Twins and T Rob were awesome that year for sure though.

Was 2012 The year Teahan got all those minutes?

That team was not very good save Taylor, TROB, and McLemore. I am a giant Releford homer, but that team was really not very good.

Taylor and TROB drug that team, kicking and screaming, to a tremendous amount of success. In terms of individual performances, that year was 2 of the best years in Jayhawk history, and I don't give a **** what the stats say.

My own aren't too far off:

1. 2008 (only 2015 UK has been better than this team in the 2000s and they actually lost in the final)
2. 2010 (this team should have won the NC and would have in a fair and just world)
3. 2012 (not as good as the 2011 or 2007 teams, but they had so much grit; that KU/MU game is also probably the best sporting event I've ever attended)
4. 2016 (I'm surprised I have a Perry team this high too, but they were really good. Too bad Villanova was better)
5. 2011 (Peak Morris brothers era; this team looked completely unstoppable all season until Shaka Smart got lucky and built his entire coaching career off one win)
6. 2007 (Basically the entire 2008 team that would go on to be one of the best in NCAA history, just with a bit less experience/polish and Julian Wright)
7. 2013 (higher than they probably should be just due to that epic EJ road win at ISU)
8. 2017 (Peak Frank Mason era; there's a reason he was the best player in college basketball this season; just not enough defensive help around him)
9. 2018 (I'm kind of surprised the streak didn't end last year to Texas Tech but these guys peaked at the right time...especially Devonte and Newman)
10. 2009 (Collins/Aldrich will always be tougher than Blake Griffin)
11. 2014 (Embiid was fun for a while)
12. 2015 (As soft as these guys were, give them credit for finding a way to keep the streak up. Nobody was surprised by that WSU loss, though)
13. 2006 (The freshman 2008 group. They were not better than the Longhorns with Aldridge/PJ Tucker but they got rolling at the right time until a pretty brutal draw against Bradley; People often conflate the Bucknell/Bradley losses but Bradley was actually good)
14. 2005 (Easily the weakest Self team until this year's group; Simien/Langford were solid but there's not much else to speak of)

McLemore was on the roster in 2012, but both Ben and Traylor were ineligible.

That team was:

Starters:
Tyshawn Taylor
Elijah Johnson
Travis Releford
Thomas Robinson
Jeff Withey

Pretty nice lineup

Bench:
Conner Teahan
Kevin Young
Naadir Tharpe
Justin Wesley

Absolutely atrocious bench

Yeah we’re pretty close. The top and bottom are pretty obvious to me.

2015. 2006, and 2005 are the obvious bottom 3. 2006 will always be my favorite of those 3, because they laid the foundation for 2008.

2008 and 2010 are the obvious two best teams. 2010 might be slightly better on paper due to their ridiculous depth, but 2008 was just so good. That season was 3 years in the making.

2012 was the year Teahan was like the 6th man and Justin Wesley actually played significant minutes, yeah. Tyshawn/TRob just got them through every important close game.

**** I forgot McLemore was ineligible. That was a really blah team. They had no business winning shit except TRob and Taylor just willed it into existence.

I will grant that they were a tough out defensively. Releford is one of the best defenders I’ve seen and Withey was filthy.

But Teahan was slower than me and Wesley was dumber than Billay.

Shit. I’m going to have nightmares about how bad that team was. I’m telling you. Taylor and TRob mounted two of the best individual performances in program history.

Would move some of the middle teams on the list up or down but the top and bottom teams are spot on. Me and KCC agree on something.:eek:

Loss to OSU last night should kill Drew's COY opportunity.

I think Tech’s odds should be much higher. Other than that, I don’t think it looks terrible.

As mediocre as they can look at times, this KU team is still one of the dozen or so best teams out there.

Mostly this. I’d swap 17 and 16.


Also 2010 wasn’t going to win it all. They were dead even Sagarin with Dook and Kentucky. The latter of which lost in the most incredible fashion, jacking up 4-33 from deep when they had Boogie Cousins. Insane.

35-2 and just ass-raped Richmond by like 25 the game before. We were going to win the title that year. It was a down year in the sport and we had everything. The VCU game is the one that got away. In my 35 years watching, THAT was the game.


We played the toughest SoS that year and still went like 32-7. We were impossible to score on as seen in the Tourney where we clamped down on everyone incl KY, who only scored 67 to beat us. (AD was 1-11 from the floor).

In the Sagarin pre-Tourney ratings, we were a 1-pt fave over our regions top seed UNC. Who had an awesome roster. Fave even with healthy Kendall Marshall, who they lost and then we ass-raped em E8 in The Loo. I was there of course

Would be a cool story if Vick returned just in time for a scoring explosion like he had early in the year and carried them to the final 4. But it's pretty clear that ship has sailed.

The most credible sources say that Vick's mom blew up on Self after the K-State game and threatened to pull him off the team if her demands weren't met, and Self called her bluff. There's also a rumor that he was voted off the team. The former seems more likely in the context of what's happened.

Technically, all of the games will be neutral site games, not road games.

But yeah, I wouldn't give KU very high odds. This team just doesn't have it.

Kevin Young was a great bench player, as I recall. The rest, not so much.

I'm hoping KU doesn't play Thursday of BBB. Don't want to have to worry about a game during all that.

He was okay in 2012. Much better in 2013 though.

I think this years loss will be from...... (drum roll).... Buffalo!
Also looking forward to the new KU 2020-2021 thread while the tourney is still going on.

WSU making the tourney this year?

Does Virginia save face with a National Title this year...a year after the most infamous loss in NCAA history, or is that loss the only thing people are going to remember them for until the end of time.

On a side note, I'm glad that it finally happened last year (16 losing to a 1). I used to worry like crazy each year we would get a 1 seed with the fear that we would be the first to lose.

They'll make the American Athletic Conference tourney

Maybe.

lolz....

If they win their Conf tourney, yeah...

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">We made history.<br><br>And we couldn&#39;t have done it without you. Here&#39;s to 14 incredible years <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/RockChalk?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#RockChalk</a> <a href="https://t.co/txIEnMNlug">pic.twitter.com/txIEnMNlug</a></p>&mdash; Kansas Basketball (@KUHoops) <a href="https://twitter.com/KUHoops/status/1104527535537188864?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 9, 2019</a></blockquote>
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