Ech - no way on Bumgarner.

The kid is 4-9 with a league average WHIP and an ERA just a tick south of 4.

Maybe the Bumgarner of 3 years ago, before he lost 5 mph on his fastball for no reason that anyone could ever figure out. He got a couple of them back, but the 96 mph heat that made him such a prospect is gone and he's living around 91-92 at this point. The present Bumgarner is little more than a junk-tossing lefty that's making his living by pitching in a pitchers park against a pitcher's division.

That kid has Kirk Reuter written all over him. Absolutely no chance in hell I'd trade Rasmus for him.

I'd absolutely send them Berkman for Bumgarner though.

Wait....so why do you want to trade him for Bumgarner? And how can you hate Garcia (who has much better movement than Bumgarner and a better lefty arsenal) while wanting Bumgarner badly enough to trade a CFer with AS upside?

I'd take Garcia's future over Bums without blinking.

Zach Britton is a young lefty that I'd absolutely love to have, but the O's aren't moving him (and they have Adam Jones already).

The Rays are a nice trade partner (I've decided I'd do Hellickson and McGee for him). And the Braves are a really nice trade partner w/ their young arms. Rasmus may actually get you Julio Teheran from them. Maybe Minor and Vizcaino? Besides, the last time we traded a high ceiling, underachieving OFer for one of their highly touted spare arms, it worked out okay for us. Minor/Vizcaino would be very similar to Marquis/Wainwright.

Those are the organizations I'd look to if I'm dealing Raz.

http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/new...633658416-1068


Arms top Cards' Trade Deadline priorities

By Matthew Leach / MLB.com | 07/14/11 10:00 AM ET

ST. LOUIS -- Eight months ago, the Cardinals embarked on an ambitious offseason plan to revitalize their offense and their clubhouse. The plan has been, through half of the 2011 season, a rousing success.

Now, with run scoring pretty well taken care of, it's time to address the other half of the winning equation: run prevention. As the non-waiver Trade Deadline approaches, the Cards are seeking at least one pitcher to upgrade their staff, and possibly more than one.

"I still think our focus is going to be on a starter or bullpen help," general manager John Mozeliak said on Wednesday, two days before the Redbirds begin their post-All-Star schedule in Cincinnati.


"We certainly like what we have, but if we can improve, we'd like to try."

If there's one thing that an aggressive team can just about always acquire at the deadline, it's relief pitching. Unfortunately for the Redbirds, they're not the only club that knows that, so they're not the only club seeking a bullpen upgrade. They could use help on both the right and left sides of the relief corps.

It's also conceivable that St. Louis could acquire a starting pitcher, allowing the team to use one of its current starters to bolster the bullpen. That would be a more difficult move to make, though.

"I just don't want to not explore things," Mozeliak said. "I think the likelihood of us getting a starter is probably very small. But as we spend these next 18 days, we're going to be open to really anything, if we think we can better the club."

As the Cardinals have gotten healthier in recent weeks, the club's needs have been displayed in even sharper relief. The offense ranks second in the National League in runs scored, and that's even after doing without Albert Pujols, Matt Holliday, David Freese and Allen Craig for considerable periods of time.

With the first three of those hitters back, and the fourth on the way, the offense is in very good shape. The Cards are 11th in the league in runs allowed, however, and there is less on the way to help. Rookie reliever Eduardo Sanchez is on a rehabilitation assignment at Double-A Springfield, but his return date remains uncertain. And even when Sanchez pitched, he was sometimes brilliant and sometimes erratic.

So St. Louis will seek pitching help, most likely on the relief side. The club has most commonly been linked to San Diego's Heath Bell, but plenty of teams are in the hunt for the Padres' All-Star. The Friars could also move Chad Qualls or Mike Adams, while Florida's Leo Nunez and former Cardinals closer Jason Isringhausen, now with the Mets, are also among the righties who could be on the market. Boston's Hideki Okajima and the Mets' Tim Byrdak represent a couple of the left-handed options as the Cardinals shop.

Regardless of what they're shopping for, though, the Cardinals will definitely be buyers. Their farm system has recovered a bit from a year ago, so there are some prospects who could be dealt without crippling the organization. And while Mozeliak declined to say that the team has money to spend, he certainly didn't rule out having some payroll flexibility.

"It just depends on what we're getting," he said. "That determines how we want to invest. And the other part of that equation is what you're giving up. Are we in position to make a move? I think the answer is yes. But the variables are so broad, I think it's tough to answer just one portion."

Any move, even a short-term one, will take place in the shadow of a couple of real-world considerations. Albert Pujols is, of course, a free agent after the season. The Cards must be aware that if they re-sign Pujols, they may have to save money at other spots on the roster, meaning that they must choose wisely which prospects to deal.

And if a trade includes a player who would be around beyond 2011, then it's obviously even more complicated. The Cardinals are in a tough spot regarding '12 until they know whether -- or how much -- they'll be paying Pujols.

That's part of the reason why St. Louis didn't deal for Francisco Rodriguez, who went to the Brewers on Tuesday. If Rodriguez had come to the Cardinals, he almost certainly would have been the closer. That very likely would have put him in position to secure a $17.5 million vesting option for 2012 -- a risk the Redbirds were unwilling to take.

In a bigger sense, though, there is some real pressure to win now because of the uncertainty that lingers after this season. Pujols could be gone next year. Chris Carpenter's future is not determined, with the team holding an option on him for 2012. It's very likely that the Cardinals will be a contender next year, but they can't afford to fritter away what might be Pujols' last season wearing the birds on the bat.

So they're going to try to upgrade, and make a team currently tied for first in the NL Central into a stronger squad in the here and now.

"I think our organization has decided a chance to win is precious," manager Tony La Russa said. "The big message to the team is, they're going to try."



Sounds like Relief pitching for minor league player is what we have in mind.
Bell, Nunez, Okajima, Byrdak

As much as I'd love to trade Rasmus for Teheran, there is no chance that the Braves would do that.

You don't trade one of the best, one could say the best, pitching prospect for Rasmus. The Braves know their shit, they develop nice starters. Teheran is going to be something.

When you have Hanson, Vizcaino, Jurrjens, Minor and Beachy already lined up for your rotation for the next 1/2 decade, you just might consider dealing Teheran to bring in the local boy.

Not saying they'll do it with a smile, but they might not be as reluctant as you think given the depth, youth and performance of their starters in-house.

Would you be happy if they gave up Beachy for Rasmus straight up or with another SP prospect?

Nope. I like Beachy, but his top-end is a #3 starter on a contender, IMO. He's a hell of a strikeout pitcher, but I don't think he has a lot of staying power.

Beachy and Minor? We'll talk. But Beachy on his own just doesn't have enough to him for me to be happy giving up a legitimate 20/20 CFer.

Just me, but I don't really like Minor. Beachy is who I'd go after + some other pitching prospect.

http://tinyurl.com/6d7393w

I watched this special on HBO last night, bio about Curt Flood, his time coming up to the St. Louis Cards, his error in the 1968 World Series, his subsequent trials with the reserve clause, very interesting stuff. He was a very complex guy with a lot of twists and turns.

When I was little, my first team wasn't the Royals, it was the Cards. I started following baseball for real in 1967. The first year I really paid attention, my team (The Cards) won the World Series vs Boston, and the next year they lost vs. Detroit. I just took for granted that my team would be in the world series all the time! Then in 1969 we got the Royals in KC, and I became a die hard Royals fan.

I can still remember lots of guys who were on the 1967-68 era Cardinals. I had all their baseball cards:

OF: Tolan, Brock, Flood
INF: Shannon, Maxville, Javier and Cepeda
C: McCarver
Best Pitcher: Gibson.

That was a Hell of a team.

They had video highlights of Curt Flood in the 1964 World Series when he was a rookie. He reminded me a lot of Willie McGee (not as ugly). Very graceful in the outfield, reliable, had one season (I think it was 1966?) where he made ZERO errors in the outfield. That's why the misplay in the 1968 series was so shocking.

He was a heavy drinker and boozer. His career was shot once he left St. Louis.

Do you St. Louis Cards fans have a take on Flood? Do you love him, hate him, don't care about him any more? He's a truly historic baseball figure.

There is no way the Rays give up Hellickson plus for Rasmus.

i remember those years, too. got to skip school to watch the ws.

as for flood, i was kind of young to understand what was really going on. i remember my old man really disliking the guy, but never really knew why.
sec

As a Cards fan in my (very) late 20s, I have no real-time opinion on Flood.

However, historically I see Flood as a 'baseball' figure rather than a Cardinal. I'd say I'm completely ambivalent towards him, but having read enough history, I do see him as the guy that screwed up the '68 series for Gibson. I know that's petty, but it is what it is.

My experience, though, is that the old-school Cardinals fans tend to remember him pretty fondly.

I'm in my late 30's and would agree.

Then **** 'em.

Rasmus was one of the 5 best CFers in baseball last season. He has improved his defense this season to slightly above average (though frustrating as hell on a daily basis) and has shown that he absolutely has 25/25 or better potential.

If they don't think Hellickson is worth a 24 yr. old with that kind of major league track record as well as minor league pedigree, they can piss up a damn rope. It's not like we're dangling So Taguchi here - this kid has legitimate star talent.

I'll deal him because I'm not sure he's going to realize it here, but I'm damn sure not going to deal him for Wade Davis or Jeff Niemann.

Not necessarily for Rasmus, but what do you think of Holland in Texas?

I've never seen him pitch, but I hear he might be on the block as well.

I think I just recommended him in my PM to you.

Major upside pitcher that seems to never quite get on track. I'd love to get him if he comes reasonably. I'm not sure what the Rangers would be after, though. They're loaded in the OF and set on the IF.

Their bullpen is unsteady, so I'd imagine they'll make Holland part of a package for Bell or someone of similar stripe. I doubt they'd move him for McClellan or Motte, but I'd do that in a heartbeat.

Hmmm.

I read somewhere they are looking for an everyday CF.

They could use one, but I don't know if they're waiting on Borbon or not.

I was a youngster in first grade or so during the 67-69 teams. My first experience as a Cardinal fan.

Flood, Tolan, Cepeda, Maxwill were the first players on my first Cardinal teams and will forever hold a special place. But Gibby and Brock were my favorites.

I didn't understand the whole Flood thing at the time. But remember him as a great fielder and hustled all the time. Didn't Willie Mays say Curt Flood was the best Center Fielder of all time, even better than himself?

I say Brock's inability to slide towards home plate in Game 5 is what screwed the Cards. When you have a 3-1 series lead, you shouldn't let it come down to that and Flood's misplay in Game 7.

It was a scoreless game at the time. Lolich was great that game too. Gibby was running on fumes, their inability to getting thing going against the chubby lefty was the biggest factor in that game 7.

I never got to see him play in person, but it was that 67 and 68 team that I began to really follow baseball. My family for generations had been Cards fans and it was just a given that they became my favorite team as well.

Flood was a great outfielder in the old school way, didn't just rely on athleticism but was very sound fundamentally. At the time it appeared to me he just didn't want to leave the Cards. It was just a given that the owner's had the right to do anything they wanted with players. In hindsight it is obvious they were all short sighted pricks. Had they seen the future we might not have the heavily weighted player system we have now.

He certainly had his demons, but you can't help but feel for him. Hearing his mother's story was pretty revealing and helped me to understand some of his feelings later on in his life.

That comment to his mother and she almost got lynched? His uniform in a pile of dirty uniforms has contaminted the white players uniforms? The attendent picks it up with a stick?

We seem to forget that wasn't so long ago. Flood was in the minors experiencing that in my lifetime.

Bernie is interviewing Tony Rasmus at 12:15.

Gonna be some fireworks.

Goddamn it I wish he would just shut the **** up

I am too late but it would of been nice to of known what station.
Since I am late what was said???

He's being interviewed still.

www.101sports.com

So even his dad thinks he needs to be more aggressive and take charge in the outfield. His dad said he has finally been working hard on his swing for the last 3 weeks. Uh shouldn't he of been working hard on his swing like this ooh say about 2 years ago. Don't think Colby will be traded if he is until after the season is over.
Colby is being viewed as mentally weak throughout the league because of the way he responds to harsh critism whether he thinks he deserves it or not.

Rasmus definitely needs to work on the mental aspect or he will never make it and very few will ever want him.

Albert!!!! Now hold on bullpen.

Driving to Cinci tomorrow to see game two.

Saw that coming.

This is going to be a LONG 2nd half.

Welcome to STL, Heath Bell.

As badly as this rotation needs help, we desperately need someone that won't shit down their leg with a lead in the 9th.

16th blown save.

3rd worst in all of baseball.

****ing ridiculous.

Lynn has been pitching lights out. Time to give him a chance.

Better not trade for Bell. No friggin way do I want to give up Rasmus, Miller or Martinez for 1/2 year of a rental player. We won't get him for less than that caliber of player.

No need to mortgage the future for the present. We will get another shot at the playoffs in the next 3 years.

I like Bumgarner more than Garcia because he can go deep into games, his frame projects for longevity, his fastball has more veolcity, and he has more pitches in his arsenal.

Oh, and the argument that he's a product of Pac Bell is complete bullshit. Look at his Home/Away splits this year. His road ERA is half of what it is at home.

He's also 21 years old.

Jaime has more IP so far this season(same amount of starts) and a lower WHIP than Bumgarner.

And I don't know if you're thinking that Colby=Bumgarner, but if you are, that's crazy.

so???? Who are you willing to give up for Bumgarner?

Christ, what DOESN'T this team need?

SP, RP and they need a SS something ****ing FIERCE.

Another error.

Hang in there, Carp.

Jesus.

THREE errors.

Why the **** is Punto playing 3rd?

Come on Carp, get us to the top of the 9th.

Done.

Chris ****ing Carpenter, everybody.

I'm slowly starting to lean towards the Cards picking up Carp's option for next year.

Same here.

Outside of start or two, he's been pretty ****ing solid.

Dude's been getting next to no run support.

Yeah. The only thing early in the season that was above his career average was his ERA and I think his BABIP.

I want Carp to be back here, but I think if they restructured the option(10 mil. guaranteed, up to 15 mil. if he hits certain escalators in his contract), it would be a win-win for both sides.

Alright, Salas. Try not to step on your own dick tonight.

I wonder if the Cardinals could handle a payroll of 120 mil.

**** yeah they could.

They wouldn't choose to, however.

They're at 108 mil. right now.

If they keep Berkman, Albert and Carp, I'm guessing it would be around 120 mil.

I expect Waino to have his options picked up or reworked.

Yes, and I fully expect them to. Complete bullshit if they try the woe is me crap.

Now, I wouldn't be totally against it, but I could see a scenario where they let Berkman walk, keep Carp and resign Albert.

Craig or Jay would be in RF.

Not many games do you make 3 errors and still win.

That's exactly what you should do.

Berkman turns down arb, and nets you two draft picks in the process, and the absence of Carpenter's salary would equal Albert's raise.

A few weeks ago, I said I'd be cool with moving Berkman and another piece for him.

I wouldn't jump for joy if we traded Rasmus at all, but if we did, that's the caliber of pitcher we need to get in return.

Pretty much, but I think they can keep Berkman at the right price.

You know the old saying about how it's always good to let go of a player a year too early?

After this year, he'll command a 2-3 year deal at probably 12-14 per.

We're in an excellent place to let him walk and take the picks. To me, it's a win-win.

I don't see there being a problem with keeping Berkman at 8 mil.

If he likes it here, wants to be back as well as Albert, I think he might be okay with 8 mil.

That was a helluva pitch to end the game. The ball dipping down and in to the right handers when it looks like its a hittable fastball is a damn good pitch for a closer.

That pitch last night to Phillips was a good pitch, probably not even a strike.

They can easily resign Pujols and raise ticket prices next year. I also see no reason our payroll can't got to 120 million either. I don't see Carp asking for a huge payday in the offseason. The farm system seems to have some cheap talent on the way. We should use that saved monies to resign Pujols, Carp and Waino. Let Berkman walk unless he resigns on the cheap. Otherwise I'm happy with craig/Jay in RF.

I'm still not convinced that we should trade Rasmus. He seems emotional immature but too much raw talent to just let him go for less than top level talent.

Uhh I must be missing something??????? Pujols turned down a 7 yr $210 mill deal before the season.
If your #'s are right then that alone would be 138 mill.

yes you are.....there is a link in the opening post of our salary obligations.

2012 $53 million in salary committed.
2013 $36 million in salary committed.
2014-15 $24 million in salary committed.

That leaves us $72 million to spend on Waino, Carp and Pujols and anyone else.

Do you guys want to pay Pujols $30 mil a year? I know that I am not a fan of it. I do think he is arguably the best player in the league. But if it is going to take that kind of money to sign him with a term of 10 years. I don't think Pujols will play out that contract.
If those are the cases I think I would rather have 2 more Holliday types on the team. IIRC Holliday got 15.7 mil a year.

Ok thanks for that explanation.

I completely agree.

Punto to the DL.

Good. He's going to cost us games just like he did the twins.

You keep saying we can raise ticket prices and sign Pujols. How much are you looking to raise ticket prices?

I've seen projections that a 10% increase across the board (suites, cheap seats and lower level seats) would bring in an additional $10 million a year. Thats paying $22 next year for a $20 ticket this year. We resign Pujols, no one will bat an eye at the increase.

We can go to a $120 million payroll and gives us a total of $72 million to spend next year on re-signing Pujols, Waino and Carp. In 2013 that gives us an additional $17 million to add or resign players and in 2014 another $12 million.

We can be in great shape to have another great 6 year run where we have a legitamate run at another World Series championship.

There's no way season-ticket holders are okay with a 10% price hike.

pennants and world series titles don't come cheap. either suck it up and take the hit or relive the early 90's.

You don't raise tickets up by $10.

This. Or even $5/seat is too much of an increase for Pujols, which would come close to covering the difference between this year's salary and the 30 mil.

He was out by a ****ing mile. Theriot has every right to be pissed.

10% not $10.00

The umpire was out of position.

The throw beat him, but did he even touch the bag?

Spikes were on the base.

{Looks at the contract Moe gave Kyle Lohse...sighs}

{Looks at the contract Moe gave Jake Westbrook...openly weeps}

Exactly why do you think John Mozeliak has any !@#$ing clue about when the appropriate time to let a player go would be? If he squeezes one single bit of production out of you, especially if said production was undervalued at the time, he's going to extend you far beyond your useful time.

Berkman will be back next year, bank on it.

The intelligent decision would be to market him heavily to a team like the Rays, Giants, Braves or Rangers. Just like the intelligent decision would've been to send Lohse to the Yankees for Ian Kennedy way back when that was the hot rumor. But alas, you know Mozeliak will ride this sinking ship all the way to an 85 win, wholly irrelevant season and extend Berkman for $30 million.

You think season ticket holders are going to pay an extra $200-$1000 to keep Albert on the team with a smile on their face?

Sorry, not going to happen.