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Brock 02-26-2011 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laz (Post 7455199)
you're insane

if the NFL loses the salary cap completely, for a long period of time, you will see teams from big markets start to take over.

The teams that spend the most don't necessarily win. Whether you have a cap or not, you're going to have teams that spend a lot more than others do, and it should be pretty obvious that you don't have to outspend anybody to win championships.

Donger 02-26-2011 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laz (Post 7455199)
you're insane

if the NFL loses the salary cap completely, for a long period of time, you will see teams from big markets start to take over.

From my reading, the salary cap didn't even start until 1994. Did big market teams "take over" in the years prior to 1994?

alnorth 02-26-2011 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brock (Post 7455201)
The teams that spend the most don't necessarily win. Whether you have a cap or not, you're going to have teams that spend a lot more than others do, and it should be pretty obvious that you don't have to outspend anybody to win championships.

You act as if this is a good thing. This sort of argument is better-suited for MLB. In the NFL, you had perfect parity where if you lose it is literally your fault and no one else's. Now, in a hypothetical without a salary cap, you are basically saying "well gee, we could still win. Sure, its not equal anymore and it will be harder, but we shouldn't suck every year!"

Why even compromise down from perfection?

CrazyPhuD 02-26-2011 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brock (Post 7455201)
The teams that spend the most don't necessarily win. Whether you have a cap or not, you're going to have teams that spend a lot more than others do, and it should be pretty obvious that you don't have to outspend anybody to win championships.

You need to draft well to be consistently competitive. BUT the big key to super bowls are franchise QBs. No franchise QB would be able to stay with a small market team past their initial contract. That would likely substantially limit the ability of any small market team to win a super bowl.

Brock 02-26-2011 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donger (Post 7455196)
Specifically what?

Pension benefits, medical benefits, any benefits gained through CBA. I dont' understand your question.

Brock 02-26-2011 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrazyPhuD (Post 7455207)
You need to draft well to be consistently competitive. BUT the big key to super bowls are franchise QBs. No franchise QB would be able to stay with a small market team post their initial contract. That would likely substantially limit the ability of any small market team to win a super bowl.

How has this ever been shown to be true? The NFL has restricted free agency. They can tie up a player for as long as they want, just franchise them year after year.

alnorth 02-26-2011 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donger (Post 7455203)
From my reading, the salary cap didn't even start until 1994. Did big market teams "take over" in the years prior to 1994?

You missed the part where free agency didn't exist. If there's no free agency and the draft is honored (ie, when you are drafted by the chiefs, you are a slave to the chiefs for life, until they decide they dont like you any more), then the large markets are powerless to do anything with their money.

If free agency doesn't exist and the draft is honored, we are pretty much not having this discussion and don't really care as much about the CBA. Have a union, don't have a union, whatever, we still own you if we draft you.

Brock 02-26-2011 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alnorth (Post 7455206)
You act as if this is a good thing. This sort of argument is better-suited for MLB. In the NFL, you had perfect parity where if you lose it is literally your fault and no one else's. Now, in a hypothetical without a salary cap, you are basically saying "well gee, we could still win. Sure, its not equal anymore and it will be harder, but we shouldn't suck every year!"

Why even compromise down from perfection?

KC didn't sniff a SB with or without a salary cap. Meanwhile, Pittsburgh, with or without a salary cap, wins championships. It isn't the amount of money you spend.

tk13 02-26-2011 06:35 PM

The sports landscape was way different in the 80's and early 90's than it is now. It's the same thing when people say Ewing Kauffman would've kept the Royals payroll at the top of the league if he was still alive. Back then the top baseball payrolls were like $15 million, now it's over $200 million.

The first NFL salary cap was $34 million. The last capped year two years ago, it was $128 million. I don't know if comparing 1990 to today holds water.

Donger 02-26-2011 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alnorth (Post 7455212)
You missed the part where free agency didn't exist. If there's no free agency and the draft is honored (ie, when you are drafted by the chiefs, you are a slave to the chiefs for life, until they decide they dont like you any more), then the large markets are powerless to do anything with their money.

If free agency doesn't exist and the draft is honored, we are pretty much not having this discussion and don't really care as much about the CBA. Have a union, don't have a union, whatever, we still own you if we draft you.

Excellent explanation. Thank you. But, doesn't the "franchise tag" kind of negate free agency?

CrazyPhuD 02-26-2011 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brock (Post 7455209)
How has this ever been shown to be true? The NFL has restricted free agency. They can tie up a player for as long as they want, just franchise them year after year.

Look at the winners of the past 18 or so SB, baring two defensive teams in the early 2000s all of them have been lead by a franchise QB. Considering how much the NFL favors offense and the passing game specifically it is unlikely, without a rule change, for a team to win a SB on defense alone.

As for the franchise tag...assuming it's kept without a salary cap...it's very easy to become irrelevant. It's still the average of the top 5 players at the position. I would not be surprised without a cap to see that number grow 20%+ a season. At that point while a small market COULD use a franchise tag, they simply couldn't afford to do so.

alnorth 02-26-2011 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brock (Post 7455219)
KC didn't sniff a SB with or without a salary cap. Meanwhile, Pittsburgh, with or without a salary cap, wins championships. It isn't the amount of money you spend.

This response is completely silly. KC didn't sniff a SB because they were morons. Without a salary cap, it becomes harder and there's an easy scapegoat if you fail. Right now, if you fail it is 100% your fault, not 95%, but 100% and we want your resignation as GM.

Are you somehow trying to argue that a salary cap hurt KC?

DTLB58 02-26-2011 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donger (Post 7455019)
Does anyone really think that players in the NFL need to be unionized in the present day?

Umm, Yes! As long as you have greedy owners like Jerry Jones you need to have your rights protected.

alnorth 02-26-2011 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donger (Post 7455222)
Excellent explanation. Thank you. But, doesn't the "franchise tag" kind of negate free agency?

maybe if it existed in the NBA. An NFL roster is rather huge, and trapping 1 player doesn't negate free agency.

CrazyPhuD 02-26-2011 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brock (Post 7455219)
KC didn't sniff a SB with or without a salary cap. Meanwhile, Pittsburgh, with or without a salary cap, wins championships. It isn't the amount of money you spend.

And pittsburgh hadn't won a super bowl in 26 years until they drafted a franchise QB. Has KC done that?(you could argue that Montana was but ancient and also probably green), but a franchise QB doesn't guarantee a SB it's just the minimum price of admission.


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