Other than Orapko, who has lived up to their high draft status?

And once again, let's hold off an St. Orapko.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/ful...=0&type=school

damn near every player over the last 4-5 years has been worth his draft position. Not everyone, that would be nearly impossible, but most.

Orakpo isn't only a legitimate pass rush threat, he is a beast against the run. One of the guys I rent a room to is a Redskins fan and I watched about every game last year (unless they played at the same time as the Chiefs, so probably 10 games or more) and because I wanted him as our pick, I paid a lot of attention to him. He routinely not just stood up linemen, he took some off their feet going straight up. He can hold the point against the best of competition and at an early age. He played both defensive end and outside linebacker in a 4-3 and showed very well wherever they played him.

He would have been a homerun of a pick in that draft and would have already had numerous threads about him comparing him to DT and more than a few here (not sure I would be one of them) would be projecting astronomical numbers for him next year and in following years.

I think he will develop into a 14-16 sack guy in Jim Hasletts defense that helps them key a top ten run defense. That kind of guy is worth top five picks in any draft.

That's what I see him as.

I love the chances Studebaker has of becoming a force for us, but Orakpo would have been a true "franchise pass rusher" which is arguably any defenses most important player.

I like it

St. Orakpo

Orakpo had flags though...he didn't start till late in his career, he couldn't beat OT's that weren't playing at the next level several times during the season..he looked like a classic workout warrior at 1 point.

The point is he wasn't a consistent starter until he was a senior, that's a flag.

I dont think any player comes without any flags.

First off, you asked why so many people here were "against" Orapko. The answer, once again, is that far too many Texas players chosen in the first round (and even second) were busts.

A quick perusal of that list confirms it.

Orapko has had ONE good year. Let's see what he does after that.

In the meantime, Griffen, Huff, Roy Williams, Vince Young, Tubbs, Benson, Jammer, Leonard Davis, etc. haven't lived up to billing. Many are on their second teams.

Only John Elway.

Peyton Manning had "flags"?

I was referring to yellow flags.

couldnt win the big game.

that showed to be true, his only superbowl win came at the hands of his running game, not his golden arm

So basically, "we didn't like him because he was from Texas"

That is why I defensed that with Kyle Boller/Rodgers back then.

All of those players were from 5+ years ago except for Young and Griffin and Young is anything but a bust. All that guy does is win football games for a team that cant win without him. Griffin has been part of 18 turnovers in 3 years and had 7 interceptions in 2008. The defense struggled to get to the passer after fat albert went to washington and the defense struggled and that means Griffin struggled.

I'm not sure what changes were made to Texas around that time frame, but they have put some quality players in this league recently and Orakpo is just one of them. The only thing that scared me is that he may be a guy that is on roids.

I can see why some here weren't 100% about him being our pick, but the level of hatred for the kid was crazy.

It was a draft that we were cursed in because of it being so weak at the top. At least Orakpo would have been a difference maker.

that cracks me up...

"his only Super Bowl came at the hands of his running game!"

hahahaha

what an ignorant statement

The Bears had the best defense (other than the 2000 Ravens) of the decade that year...

and Peyton Manning guided his offense to a T.O.P. of like 39 minutes (if I remember correctly) and kept them in the game after a rocky start...

He also, that same season, beat the almighty Tom Brady and the Pats in a game they were trailing 21-3 (the AFC Championship Game)...

It's a team sport...

Matt Cassel won 11 games with the Patriots...

It's not ALWAYS the QB...even though I don't expect you dipshits to understand that...

Peyton Manning is far and away the best QB I've ever seen play...no doubt about it. Better than Tom Brady, and it isn't close.

Texas players have had the reputation amongst football people as being extremely athletic but poorly coached in the fundamentals.

This cannot be argued.

The overwhelming majority of Texas players taken in the first two rounds this past decade have been extremely disappointing. Many have been traded and some of those who haven't, have missed a significant amount of playing time either due to injury or being out of football, altogether.

Texas isn't USC. 90% of their players have not been even close to NFL ready. They aren't a football factory like Miami in the 80's and 90's.

Texas attracts star athletes from across their state and into Oklahoma but under Mack Brown, they've not been prepared for the NFL.

And Peyton? LMAO

Have you EVER seen Phil Fulmer coach? The guy across the street that runs VH-1 Reality TV is a better coach.

LMAO

25 of 38 passes for 247 yards and a touchdown, with one interception for a passer rating of 81.8,

they had 191 rushing yards in that game

you're welcome.

BTW I thought you put me on ignore...put me back on it

Insulting Peyton Manning's performance in a rain soaked Super Bowl is ridiculous.

He'll go down as a Top Ten, if not Top Five QB of all time.

you know what else cant be argued?

That previous to Aaron Rodgers, very similar type of things, relatively, had been said about Cal quarterbacks.

Orakpo was an elite prospect. Anyone could just watch him and see that.

Just like the guys that voted him to the probowl as a rookie.

You asked why people had an aversion to Texas players.

I gave you the answer.

How many Cal QB's since Rodgers have had success in the NFL?

And Orapko's one year success means nothing for Texas players.

I never said otherwise.


I like Peyton.

I just said that his "flag" coming into the draft was that he couldn't win the big games at Tennessee and in the pros he has had serious problems in his biggest games. His only superbowl win came more due to his team having 191 yards rushing than him taking the game over as a passer.

That was made up by the media.

There isn't a coach in the NFL, past or present that wouldn't do ****ing cartwheels to have Peyton Manning as their QB.

There is no one that plays or coaches in the league that doesn't have the utmost respect for him as a player and most defensive coordinators and players, fear him.

No, I asked why it seemed before the draft that Orakpo had Aids and why everyone except for a couple of us absolutely hated the idea of even talking about him being our pick.

Every player at the top of that draft had serious flags.

Every one.

I somewhat agree with part of the point you are trying to make regarding Texas players though.

Until the biggest games, I agree.

Dude chokes in about every one of those.

Just ask Ty Law or Tom Brady...or a number of other players for that matter.

And once again, I gave you the answer.

Texas.

If the guy had put up awesome numbers at USC or Notre Dame or any number of elite schools, he'd have gone higher.

Once more, scouts, GM's and coaches have a rational fear about Texas players overall because most do not live up to expectations, and there's a long track record to verify that belief.

I don't buy that for a second.

Peyton is SO good that he elevates the play of mediocre players around him.

Unfortunately, just like the Marty Schottenheimer coached Chiefs of the 90's, talent in the playoffs catch up with teams.

There's no way in the world that you're going to tell me that if Brady and Manning switched places, Manning wouldn't have an equal or greater number of Super Bowl rings.

Tony Dungy is a joke. His successor was worse. If Manning was with a guy like Shanahan or Belichick (or heavens forbid, Bill Walsh or Joe Gibbs), Manning would break the record for Super Bowl wins because those fellas know how to build a TEAM.

Something Indy has been sorely lacking since Peyton was drafted. See the revolving door at O-line, defense, RB and WR as proof.

I must have added the last part of that post before you hit quote...I just think that Orakpo was one of those guys that you could watch play and see he had "it" and it didn't matter where he played..."it" was obviously there...then came the combine where he showed how elite his measurables were and it took it further. Dude is a dedicated football player that wasn't deserving of the soft label that most Texas players are.

or its just that he has always struggled (college and pros) when the lights are the brightest.

This isnt something I am making up, it is the way the actual games played out in crunch time when he was making mistakes that cost his team.

Its not his coaches fault when he keeps throwing picks to Ty Law in playoff games (even when Ty was ancient and playing for us ffs) ...something happens when crunchtime happens in the biggest games, he chokes. In regular games, he is one of the best quarterbacks I have seen play, both in person 3 times or on tv countless others.

It is what it is.

Actually, the "flag" on Manning coming out was concern that he was maxed out.

not going to get into the debate, Dane pretty much did it for me...

but I have pointed out just as many Brady "chokes" as Manning has ever had...

it's god damn ridiculous how ignorant people are when it comes to Peyton Manning...

1) Matt Cassel won 11 games with New England. Yes...our shitty, shitty, shitty $60M QB that got 15 games with the greatest team of my lifetime and it made him $30+M dollars...proving what I always said...New England was a playoff team with Matt Cassel as their QB (unless they win 11 games and can't get a WC berth...and if they did...who knows what would have happened...you really put anything past BB?)

2) Austin Collie, Pierre Garcon.

Doesn't matter who it is...

Which brings me back to

3)

I always said...had Kennison went where Harrison did in that draft...(they went back to back...Kennison to STL, Harrison to INDY)...

we'd think of Kennison as the sure fire HOF'er that Harrison is...

Of course I've been saying this for years and years and years...

but I'm glad others are finally starting to realize it

(I can't help myself when it comes to this debate actually, lol)...

P.S. My eyes were opened to Peyton's greatness when he crushed my hopes and dreams in 2003 @ Arrowhead Stadium...

Since then...I've always envied him and hope someday the Chiefs can get a QB 1/100th as good as he is...

(because that's still better than most)

Every QB "chokes".

From Johnny Unitas to Bart Starr, to John Elway, to Joe Montana, to Tom Brady.

The difference, in the years I've watched football, of all the great QBs, Peyton Manning is the one who I have yet to believe that when it comes time to make plays will make those plays.

Brady has bought into his own hype, and become less clutch as the years have passed.

I would love to have Manning.

However, when it comes playoff time, I want a stellar defense and run game, because I wouldn't trust Manning when it counted most.

Hmmm. Interesting point ... somewhat repetitive, but interesting nonetheless.

Here's what I think ... I think that draftabulators tend to want new/improved/better/shinier bodies all the time, whereas our coaching staff may be attempting something innovative for the Chiefs ... actually attempting to develop the young talent we have on hand.

For example, it appears to me that the LB position you mention has improved pretty dramatically (over last year) from an actual "contribution on the field" point of view ... at least it seems that way to me - based on the pre-season performances we've seen.

I also think (based on the odd roster makeup) that the staff is probably placing a far higher emphasis on special teams than many of us recognize. Part of the plan seems to be getting our fabulous quarterback premium field position ... which makes a lot of sense when you think about it ... since moving the football down the field is not his forte.

FAX

Nonsense, cut em all ;)

Hadn't really thought about it like this, but, oh my...

only two QBs says lionheart might be in the mix

I'd rather start Brodie Croyle than Leinart...

I'm starting to think I'd give Cassel two games...

if he's ABSOLUTELY atrocious...

let Brodie have two games...

and see if we improve.

Lokey is a surprise to me. I thought he had played his way onto the team and that we needed another player behind Edwards.

Shaun Smith is that player.

Brodie would get hurt in the first game probably, but the 2nd game definitely, and then you have Matt my Casshole hurts for the rest of the year and he regresses. Otherwise I'd be right there with you.

If Brodie could stay on the damn field, he'd be our starter hands down.

Guys, Flopnuts is right.

Hootie, I want you to know that I repped him for that.

at this point I don't give a shit...

Let the dumbass Cassel play for a few games...

if he's average, sweet...

if he shits himself...lets see if Brokie can make it through a few games...or a season...and see if he's got any talent...

gets injured again?

we can have a total QB exodus in the offseason and start over on that position

we should have just god damn traded for McNabb and cut Cassel and swallowed that $30M but lord knows we're too cheap for that (and also a very unrealistic scenario, I know)

I can get with that. If it's apparent that Cassel is still garbage by week 6 (and let's face it, he will be) then we may as well give Brodie one more chance to not tear his shoulder out. If it's time to move on, then **** it, we may as well move on.

But we may as well bring Leinart in too. Because once Glass Bro goes down, the last thing we want is to go back to the guy that we already decided wasn't good enough.

You guys are hoping for too much suck.

He's got this dink and dunk shit down. He had a 68 percent completion percentage, man. Someone somewhere is telling him he did a hell of a job.

He's gonna be Mr. Mediocre this season. He won't give the coaches a reason to yank him.

We're in for a frustrating year of can't shit and won't get off the pot.

Is he playing the nose? I thought he was listed as a DE.

This may be a defense where the positions shift a lot, though. I got to see the Green Bay game on NFL replay, and Shaun Smith is a veritable dirigible. He was standing next to Casey Wiegman on the sidelines at one point, and made Casey look like he was a linebacker in comparison.

Weigman is not much bigger than most LBs.

Smith has been listed at DE, and was apparently getting a lot of reps in T there, but has been playing the nose in the last couple of preseason games.

Cool. It makes me nervous to see Edwards at NT with no backups listed, but I figure they have to have some backup plan in place for a mid-game situation.

Brodie got hit alot when we played baltimore. Hard. And he didn't get hurt.

Give him one more shot. If he gets hurt in anyway, cut him and move leinart to the #2

I don't think there's any way they go into the season with the roster as is.

They'll almost certainly pick up a NT and a couple off O-Lineman of waivers.

Not to mention a QB.

last year the roster looked like musical-chairs .. prolly be the same this year .....

Lokey and Harris kinda surprise me.

At times, Lokey looks like our best DT.

So he made it one full game, that means given his career history he goes down before halftime in the next game he starts.

Remember he has only finished half the games he has started.

Sweet.

I'm not hoping for suck. I'm just totally expecting it. Wait until that ****er gets that deer in the headlight look with 4 wideouts not more than 6 yards from him.

I think this team will win 11 games.







5 this year...
6 next year!!

LMAO That's the one!

I really thought Mays was a goner. I liked Lokey as goal line blocker and was hoping that would give him the edge on Magee.

So like I said, get leinart if he's willing to come here( I doubt it) start cassel and if he's playing like shit, give croyle a couple games, and if he shows nothing or gets hurt no matter what the severity, cut your losses and see if cassel is ready or if leinart has matured enough to play.

Besides a little egg on piolis face, I don't see how this would hurt. It'd make it alot easier if cassel just came out guns blazing and playing at a probowl level like he gets paid to play

Of course I don't expect this to happen at all, it'd be nice though if cassel starts bad though

Its hilarious how people are talking up Croyle. HE SUCKS! Maybe even more than Cassel. All he does is have a cannon for an arm. Thats it. He has two throws, 1 where the WR has to fall to catch it and the other where the ball is 20 feet above the receivers head.

I know the backup QB is the most popular player on NFL teams, but c'mon. Croyle sucks. Out of Cassel, Thigpen, and Huard, he's the only one that's never won a game. All of our QBs suck this year. Croyle is no better than Cassel.

You might be the only person here that believes that

Mays isn't going anywhere, because the Chiefs didn't bother to invest in the inside linebacker position this offseason.

They have absolutely nobody who qualifies as a thumper in the middle other than Mays...who would be a thumper if he could actually stop whiffing.

I'll give him credit for not whiffing so much this preseason, though.

However, after the season he had last year I can't believe he's still starting.

You don't think Belcher could be a thumper? If he's not, he sure looks like the role. And oddly, some of your gifs show that DJ can put the hurt on someone in the right situation.

I think Mays is our fourth-best ILB at most, and maybe lower than that.

What the hell has he shown? That he has a rocket arm and breaks easier than glass?

Belcher > Mays
D. Williams > D. Johnson

I say give Chris Baker a chance.

This is your opinion.

But, to be fair, we don't really know what we exactly have in him.

His playing time has been limited. We haven't seen him play a full NFL season thanks to injuries, his record shows zero wins yes, but were those losses primarily his fault? No. He was on really sh*t teams.

To top it off, at the time he was drafted, he was in a sh*tty system learning under the worst set of coaches. I'd like to see how Croyle performs(hopefully he stays healthy) in a better system w/ the tutorledge and guidance of good coaches. It's clear this guy has been involved in sh*tty circumstances and situations throughout his career where a lot hasn't gone in favor. That's just really unfortunate.

*But from what I've seen out of Croyle thus far, I will say his intangibles are there. At this point, he is imo more of a polished player than Cassel is. The guy has a better arm. Period. He can deliver more accurate throws. He has a stronger arm, no doubt about it. Overall his pocket presence is better. He doesn't allow himself to get easily rattled and take sacks. He makes better reads. These are just to name a few.

Belcher is 228 pounds. He just looks bigger because of that awesome neck pad thingy he wears.

So? Thigpen had a shitty team. So did Cassel.

He's not accurate. He just has a strong arm. Thats it. Watch him this preseason. Receivers barely get any YAC because they're always falling to catch his passes. And stop with this whole "hopefully he stays healthy" shit. He came out of the womb injured.

If it comes down to Cassel vs. Croyle, who gives a shit what the answer is?

Exactly. Both of them suck donkey balls. So for the time being, I'll take the guy who has wins.

Hmmm.

Croyle took very few snaps during the pre-season, Mr. KcChiefsKing. And the receivers he was throwing to were rookies, scrubs, and some guy they found in a Burger King named "Lemond".

FAX

Really? I thought he was way bigger than that. Maybe we should give those neck pads to everyone.

The reality is that Croyle has done little to nothing almost every time he has seen the field.

Two good drives against Indy a couple of years ago and two good drives against Baltimore last year.

Not nearly enough to suggest for even a sceond that he's anything more than a scrub.

No, he is not.

bingo

What's wrong with hoping for a guy to stay healthy? As a fan, you hope for the best and that is what Im doing.

I've watched him this preseason. He's been solid. Okay other than a few bad throws, his passes were crisp, smooth, and on the money most of the time.

It's too bad he is not going to get a chance.

The backup quarterback is always the most popular player.

Not in Indy, New England, Green Bay, Minnesota, Dallas, Houston, San Diego, Baltimore, Cincy, Pittsburgh, Atlanta, DC or New Orleans.

As Dane points out, only where the starter sucks.

Really! From what I saw he made a few good throws and that's about it. If you pay attention you might realize this guy can not stay healthy, did you notice he was injured again this preseason? Sorry but Croyle will never be the answer to our QB problems.

For what it's worth here are our wonderful QB stats from the preseason. So of those 19 completions for Brokie you're trying to tell me they were all crisp smooth and on the money?





Att. Cmp. Yds. Cmp. % Yds./Att. TD TD% INT Rating

M.Cassel 59 38 293 64.40% 5 3 5.10% 2 79.3
T.Palko 42 24 215 57.10% 5.1 0 0.00% 3 41.3
B.Croyle 31 19 184 61.30% 5.9 0 0.00% 1 64.5

I know he can't stay healthy, thats why Im being hopeful:)

Yes, I thought he made several good throws. Some bad throws too, i.e., the other day he made a throw off his back foot which I thought was a mechanical issue more than anything.


But with a little coaching, those little things can be correctable. He's never had a good coach, played for a coach who ultimately destroys QB's(*Cough* *cough* Herm)..Never played a full season in his career under a good coach. Those things there tell me we don't really know what we have or probably haven't seen enough of what he could do or possibly be?