You do a lot of that on Tuesday evening games, huh?

I give up. Behold the future of baseball.


http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x...s/1981/142.jpg

I'm pretty sure Saul Good is an alcoholic.

Good, because your nonsense isn't convincing anyone...

You spend a lot of time hanging out in a bar after 10pm on a Tuesday?

If you need three hours of drinking beforehand to enjoy a baseball game, maybe you're not really much of a baseball fan.

Which is exactly why I don't go to the park.

Nicely played, sir.

Not at all. If I'm leaving work at 4:30 or 5:00 and hitting a 7:05 game, I want to be able to go somewhere near the stadium to have a decent meal or grab a drink.

If I'm entertaining someone for business, the Royals game doesn't even enter the discussion. I go to games in Saint Louis for "business" meetings when I'm there because there is plenty to do before and after the game. I actually spend my money in the surrounding area. Imagine that.

What time does Arrowhead open it's lot for Sunday night games? Must not be a lot of actual football fans there tailgating.

So we want to bring people who aren't even focused on the game but rather some business dealings?

Sorry, I go to games for the games. I don't need the experience watered down by a bunch of suits talking about their next merger or litigation.

I guess I can expect to see a surge in stadiums being built in ghost towns, then. You just can't convince anyone to build stadiums in vibrant urban areas.

If I'm leaving work at 4:30 or 5:00 and hitting a 7:05 game, I want to be able to tailgate in the parking lot and grill my food and have a few drinks. The current stadium provides that wonderfully.

I have no doubt that you're a good baseball fan. I've been poking you with a stick because you want everyone here to want the thing that would make Saul World a happier place.

I like the stadium where it is, because it's close to where I live, it's convenient, it's easy to park, it's easy to get out, and historically, these stadiums are starting to climb the longevity ladder. Someday we may see the "K" in the same light as Wrigley or Fenway. Not saying that will happen, but you never know.

Of course, people want different things from their game experience. Kauffman has lots of bars for the partiers, stuff to distract the kids, the HOF for the history buffs. Me, I care most about the product on the field, which sadly has been missing from the forefront of the conversation.

You want a downtown party, other people want a family place or want to tailgate. To each his own. We should bitch less about the stadium, and more about what's happening on the field. Jackson County spent the money to build a world class venue. The Glass Family should pony up so the product matches the packaging.

That's a ridiculous line of thinking.

advocates designing stadiums around hardcore baseball fans



supports a nine figure renovation of the stadium that added bars, concession stands, luxury boxes, a playground, and an enormous video board

If there's one thing people in Kansas City love, it's a huge parking lot.

I do not see how the two are mutually exclusive. We are not allowed to bring the party from the lot into the stadium, so might as well have a party waiting inside for us.

I do not see why those options have to be only for the suit types. That is just elitist thinking.

It does for me.

And it apparently was for 2 million + fans every year when they were actually putting a winning product on the field.

Which, by the way, was the era that you decided to pull your photo from. You could at least try to use one from when we switched to blue seats and real grass at The K.

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6178/...eb75bc7459.jpg

I haven't read back all that far, but is someone complaining about the location of the stadiums? I think it's good that it's not downtown. Plenty of room for parking and tailgating. Everyone in the area is pretty much there for the game. I go to games to tailgate and watch games. Being from out of town, I love that it's easy to get into and out of, and that it's near the highway. I'm not sure how you couldn't like the setup. If you're coming from work, grab a 6 (or 12) pack of beer and head for the parking lot. Need food? Make friends with a neighbor who's grilling. I don't know about baseball games, but I know that no one goes hungry during football season.

But but but there aren't guys in suits walking "across the street" to go to the game. That makes it a terrible location apparently.

This.

I like the new Busch as a park - nice sightlines and a phenomenal view of the city in the outfield - but I'd gladly give up that view for the ability to tailgate and park easily and inexpensively.

What's it cost to park at the K? $10?

Double or triple that if you're parking near a downtown ballpark.

You don't cook food during the week? Tailgating is a huge part of the experience for Chiefs games AND Royals games. This is not an opinion, just a fact you seem to overlook and underestimate.

Again, I have to ask, would not the stadium see far less families going if it were downtown? Who wants to take their three kids downtown with all the bars and then walk back to their car at 10 o'clock at night?

Yep. Do those parking fees go to the team if they aren't technically parking on their property?

Nope. Not unless the team owns the garage/lot.

IIRC, the Cardinals own two garages they use for STH's. I would pay the same price and walk 10 blocks over those garages, they are a bitch to get out of after a game.

The K is a factory of drunkenness. It's the biggest bar in KC on game nights.

Yup. And actually, I attribute that as part of the reason I can attend so many games. I can park, eat, and drink before the game at 1/3 of the price of what it would cost to do so at a pricey stadium side restaurant. Makes each game much cheaper, which in turn lets me see more games.

And every time I've attended something down in P&L, parking has been a major pain in the ass. A maze of one way streets, shitty overpriced parking structures with stalls just wide enough for a Smart car and **** you if you have a pickup or SUV, followed by a 7-8 block walk to an overpriced bar.

The K fits my style just fine....

KC is a driver's city. It takes very little time to drive to a quality eating or drinking establishment after the game. Or before it. I mean, if you aren't eating at L.C.'s before a Royals game (taking the back way to the complex) then you're doing it wrong.

For one it would cost hundreds of millions the city already has spent too much.

Secondly to build anything you'll need to tear down houses. That would be a messy public domain issue. Good luck getting a politician to touch that.

We as Royals fans are definitely one of the best groups, especially considering the poor play of the team for so long. Perhaps a reason is because the people that go are there because they ARE fans and not just there to be shown a good time or sucked up to by business parters.

Why does everyone assume that moving Kauffman downtown automatically means that Arrowhead is moving too? The stadiums aren't attached to each other in case some of you are wondering.

I also wonder how many people that love the way it is now have actually been to another ballpark or football stadium before. Most of their statements make it seem like not many.

In general people are respectful. There are always the obnoxious loudmouths but the K has plenty to do if you need to move for a bit. If you are walking out of the park at 10 at night on a Friday or Saturday you will encounter all types of drunken partiers, not just those that are/were at the game. Also, alcholol is prohibited after the 7th inning. When do the bars stop selling it? ;)

I have. While I'm a Cardinals fan, I don't like the way they do their parking at all.

Lol, no.

This is exactly my point. It's a great spot to make a day of the event. When you come to Kansas City for a Chiefs game, you center your trip around the game. Get up at 8 on a Sunday, set up shop at 9:30, fire up the grill around 10:15, and kick ass all day. You need some space for that, and the drive isn't a big deal when you've got nine hours dedicated to the game and associated activities.

That's great for something you do a handful of times a year. It doesn't work for 81 baseball games in addition to 8 football games.

The Royals play home games every week day next week. I love the Royals, but I'm not going to tailgate on Monday and then Tuesday and then Wednesday...I'm just not, and neither is anyone on this board.

You know what I might do? I might call up a client and see if they want to go hit up the day game on Thursday and wander over to the 360 rooftop bar afterwards. Of course, that would be in Saint Louis because Denny's just doesn't sound as appealing.

Saul lives in a world where business people take their clients to the bar for 3 hours, then goes to a Tuesday Night game, and then goes back to the bar for some more drinking.

These same business men aren't willing to drive 10 minutes to and from the stadium though.

I would love the atmosphere of a downtown ballpark, but I have to confess that I love the accessibility of the current sports complex.

Saul is right on this issue.

Actually, that would be get up at 3:30am, get in line at 7:15am, get in the gate at 8:30am, and set up the grill by 8:45am. As I said, as an out of towner, I love the location. But that is football.

I can actually see what you might mean as someone who lives in town, but I still don't see a baseball game as a venue for business meetings. If you want to invite a client to a ballgame, I don't see why that has to include dinner and drinks. If you want to take them out for dinner and drinks, do that.

It's a drivers' city because of poor planning.

Thanks for settling the issue :rolleyes:

My wife and a few friends regularly entertain clients at Busch, and the majority of the time, the client is looking to get home to the family by the 7th inning and leaves early. They conduct their business and move on.

Then again, they are grown adults, not looking to get blitzed on PBR's just because someone else is footing the bill.

Well, that and JC Nichols promoting white flight and institutionalized racism.

So the tailgating only counts if it is the same people doing it everyday? :spock:

So either way you have to call your client and DRIVE to the game. If you absolutely must go to a bar get something at the stadium. If you are more concerned with getting drinks, then go to a bar at P&L and watch the game on a TV.

I live in a world where, if I meet some friends for a Friday evening game and leave at ten, the conversation goes something like this:

What do you guys want to do now? Drive to the Plaza? Drive to P&L? Drive back south and hit Tanners?

Meanwhile, my friends in Chicago live in a world where they pour out of Wrigley and wander into whatever one of dozens of places they please.

You poor guy :(

That's exactly what I do for evening games at Busch. You're already right next to the stadium, so it's not a huge deal to watch six or seven innings and leave.

You simply don't drive out to ****ing Raytown simply to watch two hours of baseball. It just doesn't make sense. People don't want to drive for an hour round trip, pay for parking, walk a mile through the parking lot, etc. to watch two hours of baseball. They have to go through all that because it's not like the stadium is right across the street from where they were going to be anyway. It's fifteen miles away from where they were going to be.

While I agree a downtown stadium would be cool and have benefits (which I don't think includes much of an increase in attendance) I also see the benefits in what we have now and I don't really see a good reason for a new one to be built.

Wrigley Field is not downtown.

Thanks for adding nothing as usual

I think that people who come to a ballgame for only six or seven innings are terrible sports fans. Am I alone here?

Yeah you are right I haven't contributed something quite so profound as you did :thumb: If only I had known that you were the one we were all trying to get to be on our side so that you could come down with a ruling :shake:

I think if you go with the intention of only staying for that amount of time, you are certainly a questionable fan.

Here's a typical conversation between Mr. Tegu and his friends at around 2:30 on a Thursday.

Hey Tegu, we're thinking about heading over to the Royals game after work. You in?

Of course. Want to get a bite to eat before the game?

Yeah, we'll just eat in the parking lot. Do you have your Weber and a bag of Kingsford in your trunk?

Always. You brought a cooler full of meat like you do every day just in case we decided to go to a game, right.

You know it.



That makes much more sense than:


Hey Saul, want to hit the game after work?

Sure, what time?

We're going to meet up at J Bucks and head over to the stadium around 6:30.

Perfect. I get off at 4:30. I'm going to run over to Band Box to drop off my dry cleaning, and I'll meet you at 5.

Dude, once again, the PL district is 10 minutes away. 8.4 miles. Stop acting like the Stadiums are so far from everything.

But yeah, give KC the same population as Chicago and they'll have better attendance than the Cubs. 14k more fans a game but 8 million more people in the city.

One guy goes to five games a year, always on Friday or Saturday, and stays all nine innings every time.

One guy goes to twenty games a year. He leaves after six or seven innings during the fifteen week night games and stays all nine innings for the five weekend games.

Who is the shitty fan?

This is just stupid. If I don't work or live downtown, and I don't, (assuming a downtown stadium exists) this has absolutely no relevance to me or the majority of the population in any way. If I want to grill I can pick something up from my house or just buy food on the way, because either way I am still driving to the stadium, regardless of where it is.

Like I said, I see the advantages a downtown stadium has, but I also see the advantages of the K. The bottom line is that in our city as it is, the majority of people going to a Royals game have to drive there no matter where it is at.

If only there were another team in Chicago with a stadium in an area comparable to where Kaufman is located...then, we could see how their attendance compared to the team with a stadium in a vibrant urban setting.

Most civil engineers (my wife's clients) are terrible sports fans.

Hell, most of the ones I've met have the personality of a ****ing doorknob.

If you don't work downtown, you could still meet up for dinner at a restaurant next to the stadium. That's a lot better than stopping at hen house and buying cold cuts so that you can make sandwiches in the parking lot and call it tailgating.

You realize there's teams that play outside of downtown that do well, and teams that play in downtown and don't, right?

Probably the second guy.

Let's say you need help moving from noon to three o'clock, and you call two friends. Both have to be somewhere at 2:30, but one shows up and helps out until 2:15, and the other guy doesn't come at all. Which one is the better friend?

I have taken my five year old to games and had to leave early to get him in bed before 11:00. I guess I'm a shitty fan.

LMAO

Of course I could but that isn't what you said. You made it sound like we were all just getting off work and could step out of the office be there. Is it really that big of a deal to go to a restaraunt and then drive to the game? But the point remains that the vast majority of people that go to a Royals game, wherever the stadium is located, get there by driving. I don't think people in KC consider driving to places to be much of an inconvenience.

I can't help but notice you have begun arguing with yourself. Earlier you were saying the stadium would get more money because if it were downtown more people would come and spend more money on food and beverages in the stadium. But now you are saying people are going to go to the bar/restaraunts before and after the game if it were primely located, thus removing a significant amount of business from the vendors in the stadium.

I want a stadium in the middle of nowhere so that only hardcore baseball fans will want to make the trip.

The gates will lock two hours prior to the game so that only serious tailgaters will come, and they won't unlock until after the game ends so that nobody can leave early.

We won't sell beer nor even have a scoreboard. If you aren't noting every pitch on your scorecard, **** you.

now that's my kind of stadium.
sec

You are this board's undisputed master of analogies that don't work.

I said that the the team would make more money. If more people attend games, that seems pretty reasonable. The local economy would also prosper by having people spend money around the stadium rather than eating at the 810 zone, driving straight to the stadium, and driving home.

Tailgating, fun though it may be, provides little to no economic benefit to the team nor to the local economy.

I learned upon moving to Chicago that there are a couple perceptions of "downtown". The first one I had was basically just the loop and the area for a mile or so around (where all the tall buildings are). However, people also call Wrigleyville downtown.

Under Saul's definition of "downtown", Wrigleyville is not downtown. His definition seems to imply lots of office buildings and tons of people working right nearby, which isn't Wrigleyville. While many people that live in the neighborhood can just "walk across the street" and attend a game, most commute from other areas of the city or the suburbs to attend and have a much longer trip time-wise than people driving to the K.

But if people are not purchasing from inside the stadium AND they aren't paying the stadium for parking it sounds like it would result in a loss of income for the team. I am not saying that it is bad for the team to lose money or that it is bad for the local economy to gain money, just saying I don't really see an increase for the team.

I'm not saying it's downtown. I'm saying that it is located in a vibrant urban setting. Basically, it's the opposite of Kaufman.

I don't think having the stadium downtown really means more people will go. Winning games makes people go. When the Orioles won, people went to the games. When they didn't, they didn't. Same for Houston. Both downtown stadiums. People fill Yankee stadium and there's nothing there, not unless you think the Bronx is fun.

WTF? They buy tickets to the games, and they buy the same concessions that the tailgaters buy once inside.

It wouldn't necessarily cost hundreds of millions. It should not be that hard to incentivize private business to want to do business in that area. As to your second point, looking at an aerial view of the area it looks to me like there is a lot of unoccupied space right next to the stadiums.

I don't see an increase in attendance. To me it is that simple. Would some people go that otherwise wouldn't? Sure. Would some people not go that otherwise would? You bet. Do you agree or disagree?

IMO the difference results in the same attendance. A winning team will increase attendance, not a downtown stadium.

You keep saying how much people would love to hit the bars and restaraunts, which will certainly drive down purchases in the stadium. People tailgate but tailgating is a lot cheaper than going out to a bar or restaraunt before the game, therefore leaving more room for purchases on the inside.

All things being equal, a downtown stadium improves attendance and does more for the local economy. Of course winning matters. The weather matters, too. Neither are part of this particular discussion, however.

The Cubs have the second worst record in baseball, but they are going to have 1.2 million fans walk through their turnstiles than their first-place citymates who play in the Chicago equivalent of Raytown.

So I buy my food from hen house in johnson county, cook it in the parking lot, money in the stadium. That helps the johnson county economy, and it helps david glass, but how does it help the community that paid hundreds of millions of dollars for the stadium?

Yeah, because we all go buy our groceries down in Texas and then bring them to the stadium. There is nothing local about tailgating. Nothing at all.

We are talking about whether attendance will increase and whether money for the team will increase or decrease (because earlier you said the team would make more, whereas I say not exactly), not money for the local economy. Do you agree with what I posted about attendance?