If I could make sense of your drunk english I might find a point... but I doubt it.

Agreeing with Dane is always the best reference too lol.

No, they didn't.

The Seattle sound had been developing for the latter half of the 80's. Bands like Green River, Mudhoney and Soundgarden and so on. Soundgarden's "Badmotorfinger" was released in 1991 as well. The quintessential album of the 90's, IMO was Temple of the Dog, and it was released in 1990.

Pearl Jam was created from the bones of Green River and Mother Love Bone. While I believe that Pearl Jam ecompasses all that is early 90's "Grunge", Nirvana didn't start the trend.

Again, I fully disagree. And as far as "paying attention", you couldn't be further from the truth, especially since I began working for Uni in 1993.

Chili Peppers.....Blood Sugar Sex Magik.....Brilliance.

You're a ****ing deejay, I worked at the actual companies that signed these artists and had a fairly big influence on who was signed and when.

Furthermore, I have more backroom stories about the emergence of the Seattle Sound than you'll ever know.

So go ahead and disagree with me all you want. I know the truth because in many cases, I was actually there.

MBL is more of an LA metal sound than Seattle Grunge. Mudhoney was indeed a pioneer, as was TotD, but the sound first emerged on SG's 'Louder than Love' in 1990.

However, until the first showing of Teen Spirit on MTV, those acts were music geeks' little secrets. So Nirvana 'started the era' in the sense of authoritatively announcing its arrival and dominance for the next 5 years. A week before, Guns 'n' Roses were undisputed and deserved cocks of the walk.

Only a Deejay would confuse the influence of these two artists.

Visit any Pro Audio/Engineering/Producing forum, whether it's Gearslutz or ProSoundWeb or Dave's Place or PSW and do a web search on Elvis or The Beatles. You'll get literally TEN MILLION threads about the Beatles, their recording process, overdubbing process, questions and answers from guys like Ken Scott and so on.

You'll find very few about Elvis.

Elvis was an AMAZING entertainer. He was and still is the coolest singer/frontman of all time, IMO. He's been copies but never duplicated. The man was a True Original.

The Beatles, on the other hand, not only changed popular music forever, they changed the way popular music was recorded and delivered. From syncing up multiple four-track machines to Abbey Road to George Martin to their competitive nature (Sgt. Peppers was a direct response to Pet Sounds) to visiting the Maharishi to using acid to expand their minds, to the British Invasion to the introduction of Chuck Berry, Muddy Waters and countless other "American" artists, The Beatles influence is unparalled.

I could spend hours commenting on innovations in sound recording and songwriting as it pertains to The Beatles but I won't. This is not the proper forum.

Yes Nirvana did. I don't care what other bands did before them. Nirvana changed the landscape. Those other bands didn't. It's pretty simple.

Show me where your other examples changed the landscape of music... then or ever.

No, they didn't.

You know who changed the "Landscape"? Geffen Records.

Not Nirvana.

Yeah that's what this is about. I swear if you were any dumber you couldn't even wright the english language.

The Beatles. Led Zeppelin.

But most importantly, Herb Alpert and Jerry Moss.

Why and who you ask? A&M Records.

I'll leave it up to you who I'm referring to and how it changed the music business forever.

LMAO

Some people here just argue so they can look smart in their own minds. Show me the Geffen Records album genius.

Joking, right?

How long have you been in this business that you don't know that Geffen broke Nirvana?

JFC Dude, half the A&R people in this town were fired after Nirvana blew up because they had all heard Bleach and dismissed it as crap!

Seriously, you're out of your element. If you'd like me to embarrass you, fine. That wasn't my original intention.

The Beatles. Imagine that considering the thread topic.

Jerry Moss is right up there with the Beatles and Elvis though.

Seriously you and a few others should get a point now and then.

It's gotta be the Beatles. You could probably spend hours talking about how they changed music.

And I would give a nod to the Beach Boys as well. I've heard various artists refer to them positively. To tie it back to the prog thread believe it or not... I've heard the keyboardist of Genesis, Tony Banks, mention the Beach Boys in interviews before. Obviously musically it would seem a million miles apart, but I've seen him mention how the Beach Boys would do musically complex things and make them sound very simple, among other things. So you never know.

Get a point? WTF?

I love how some small town hick Deejay thinks he knows everything about the music business.

It's sad and kinda funny at the same time.

This was never and isnt about labels dumbass. But if thats the card you have to play then go for it. Whatever makes you feel your arguement is right.

I've seen stupid before... then I've seen CP morons fighting to the last possible point.

I never claimed to know everything. If you can find where I did please enlighten all of us. I program 2 stations. One is in mid Illinois. The other is in Chicago. I do it from hicktown though so feel free to make your idiot assumptions.

The most ridiculous aspect of your assertion is that Seattle grunge, whether it's Nirvana or Soundgarden or Pearl Jam, actually meant anything.

The genre was dead almost as quickly as it began.

Alanis Morrisette had a bigger and longer lasting impact on the music scene than any of the Seattle bands. Soundgarden disbanded in 1997 after a lackluster release, Pearl Jam's appeal faded dramatically after Vs. and Nirvana died when Kurt died.

"Grunge" is nothing more than a footnote in Rock & Roll history. You of ALL people should know that.

The band that benefited the most from the "Alt/Grunge" era was Smashing Pumpkins and even they couldn't sustain it.

Nirvana killed poodle rock and make the 'punk' attitude in music main stream.

Well, the guy IS an audiophile, by which of course I mean he diddles kids. ;)

And IMO, Nirvana was just an extension of Guns 'N Roses, to the extent that it was about the visuals, the frontman, etc.

They were Cheap Trick for the 90's. And by that, I don't mean to insult Cheap Trick, which is a phenomenal band.

Elvis Presley stole all his music from black musicians.

It meant something for a while. But you're Dane and you know best. We all know you'e the smartest person here because you say so, even if you're the dumbest person this side of CoMO.

Oh and check Pearl Jams realeases since you say they died.

Giving up that easy? Well, okay. Just more proof that your threads are worthless and lack conviction.

Good luck with that.

I never said anything about Pearl Jam's music: I alluded to their mass appeal, which is a mere fraction of what it was back in 1992-1994.

For the record, I saw Pearl Jam at the Gibson in the last year. The performance was absolutely amazing and was made even better when Chris Cornell joined them onstage for "Hunger Strike".

Claythan stole all his ideas from slightly smarter people on the internet.

He didn't "steal" anything. Royalties were paid, just as they were when the blues were covered by The Rolling Stones, Cream, The Beatles and just about anyone that ever covered previously publishing songs.

Copping someone's vibe isn't stealing.

Honestly Dane, these are the words of someone who looks at music as a product to be marketed with no conception of the actual worth of the content.

You're coming off like Barton Fink's producers here.

Pearl Jam isn't the best of any 3 bands ever.

This thread had good footing for a while. Then the usual asswads came in and made asswads of themselves again LOL.

I'm due at a funeral at 9am so Dane asswad can think I gave up if it makes him feel better about himself.

Good thread overall... thanks guys.

Holy Shit. I'm a big supporter of remix culture, but I hold no fantasies that all previous rights holders were made whole.

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There's shit ton that was repurposed without compensation. I've made my peace with it, but I don't claim righteousness.

EDIT: And yes, I'm aware Kirby is a Ginger Chewbacca

You actually did. Dumbass.

Two words: Geffen Records.

And as I have pointed out. This is mostly wrong. (depending on how you are defining influence) Yes, there were a few incremental things they did but nothing as big as the likes of the Beach Boys or Phil Spector. I will say, Geoff Emerick (engineer for the Beatles on their most "groundbreaking" stuff) was/is one of the best to ever live. So they have that.

To be clear, I am a HUGE beatles fan... which is why I know the subject matter and can point out other artists who were responsible for FAR AND AWAY more innovation in the industry. The Beatles just did everything so damn WELL that they get more credit than they often deserve.

Where?

I said their mass appeal greatly faded. I made absolutely no mention of their music.

Dumbass.

LMAO

I cannot even begin to tell you just how wrong you are, so I won't even bother.

But, check out Brian Kehew's "Recording The Beatles" book, which is a must read for any and every studio engineer, producer and even musician and check back in.

Furthermore, Ken Scott was more influential than Emerick, but we're splitting hairs. Abbey Road, EMI consoles, the engineers, etc. pretty much defined modern music and there are a countless number of worshippers along with people still chasing those recordings.

You tell them: BULLSHIT! We do NOT make B music here at Geffin. Let's put a stop to that rumor RIGHT now!

LMAO

Yeah, I'm an "asswad" because I called out your nonsense.

Is this how you always end threads? Take your ball and go home? What a ****ing sore loser.

Voted Beatles.

A while back PBS did a special called John Lennon's Jukebox. I really enjoyed it! They also released a compilation CD by the same name. The one thing I will always remember for it was them talking about a Gary "US" Bonds song called Watch Your Step. When I heard it, there is a riff that Led Zepplin directly lifted. I can't recall the name of the Zep song. Anyways, it showed me the back and forth between American artists influencing English artists which in turn influenced American artists.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/gperf/shows/lennon/index.html

PS: Sitting here watching SNL and Frank Ocean just ended his song by playing an arcade game while John Mayer played a guitar solo. We've come a long way baby! :doh!:

These are big albums. We don't put Wallace Beery on some fruity record about suffering.

We've gone through this before: Copyright law is Lyric and Melody. If those songs were published and copyrighted, the original rights holders should have been compensated.

Now, I cannot claim with any accuracy that those songwriter in the video you provided were paid properly. What I can tell you is that since at least 1993, if there's a copyright/sample/whatever dispute, NO ONE gets paid until they're properly cleared.

Publishers usually work out all the details before songs are released on major labels and I'd imagine that if an Indie label released a record or song in which the label hadn't cleared the samples, they'd be slapped with an immediate injunction. Fortunately, that stuff doesn't happen to often any more.

Are you telling us you have proof that Elvis was alive AND MAKING NEW MUSIC after 1993? That is AMAZING!!!!

Dude, the amount of marketing and promotion dollars (including the initial video) that went into Nirvana was astonishing.

Hell, Pearl Jam's record had been released in late 1991 with no fanfare. I saw them on the KU Campus in Spring 1992 for FREE. It wasn't until Eddie Vedder publicly lambasted Sony Records for putting all their money into the Spin Doctors that they began promoting Pearl Jam.

What? What did I miss?

No, no, no. You are right, art isn't art until it's properly promoted.

Oh boy.

You started off stating Elvis didn't steal shit, then backed it up with not knowing shit about IP compensation of the era and assuring us that everything has been copacetic since 1993.

Just following your line of assurance.

I'd like for you to prove to me that Elvis stole intellectual property.

I'd like for you to prove to me that Bob Dylan stole IP.

I'd also like for you to prove to me that since 1993, things haven't been "copacetic".

Thanks in advance.

Fore posterity's sake, before the victory laps commence, may I observe that it's ****ing SUNDAY for the bulk of America?

rather listen to eddie and the cruisers

And that means?

:shrug:

This isn't really a response to the OP but talking about producing and recording which I don't have any first hand knowledge of I find myself *really* drawn to the old "wall of sound" Phil Spectorish style of songs. That shit never gets old for me.

I always love hearing it in The Ronettes and Beach Boys stuff and it seems to my untrained ear to show up in some newer work especially with Grizzly Bear and The Morning Benders.

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So rich and enjoyable. Just fantastic.

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Inital typos aside, there may be some merit to people tapping out.


I for one am forestalling my long anticipated preview of Homeland [thanks SHO online] to continue what was recently an interesting discussion, and has recently devolved into an inane rehash.

That had to have been AWESOME. Temple of a Dog, right? Did Temple of a Dog have a member of Screaming Trees, or am I confusing them with Mad Season? Speaking of Screaming Trees, I prefer them over about any band in that genre/era with an exception of Alice in Chains and Stone Temple Pilots.

Don't a lot of musicians point to Warren Zevon as a big influence. Not more so than the options above but it seems like this is the least talked about influential artists that artists look to themselves.

You can begin to tell me and you'll be wrong. Sorry but this is something I have studied as well and I can go line by line and point out someone BEFORE who influenced and did more in almost every single instance of innovation. Of course, there will be some things where you have to give the nod to the Beatles but MOST of it is based on popularity and execution not on true innovation.

Hey, I love the Beatles but there is a cult-like mentality around them that tends to disregard or downplay all the facts.

let's look at one big "innovation".. ADT.. well it certainly is a major convenience.. all it does is make something that was being done for years, easier to do. That's great and all but not a "push the envelope" type of innovation that I am going to count for much.

Compare that to the Beach Boys TRULY pushing forward the use of multi-tracking. Which of course was an extension of Phil Spector's work. The Beatles made incremental improvements but nothing as drastic as either of them.

And I still think Emerick is a better engineer! :D

Nobody, and I mean NOBODY thrashes like Temple of the Stone Screaming Chain Seasons.

yep, and Gordon Lightfoot and Elvis Costello and here is an obscure one.. but they were MASSIVELY influential.. The Kingston trio.

EDIT: I just saw you mentioned Phil Spector.. I have been harping on him all thread. Crazy amount of influence and innovation from him.

Surprised that no one has mentioned Zappa or Captain Beefheart.

Love Elvis Costello...Lightfoot is a bit hit or miss with me.

John Prine, Leonard Cohen, Frank Black, blah blah, late 80's blah. ;)

I often don't understand why I connect with some artists and don't connect with others. I have been trying to seek out those common threads for so long and it fails me.

Costello is amazing.. Lightfoot is Canadian.. so you know, he is gonna do some crap... amazing that a filthy Canuck did as well as he did though! :D

Of course at this point we are moving more into the songwriting realm.. where you'd have to mention guys like John Denver or JimmY Webb

Singer song writer stuff is huge with me though which makes a lot of those artists big on my list but leaves me glad I am living here in the now because a lot of good stuff is coming down the pipeline.

So I'm clear. So many of these acts are near and dear to my heart. My mocking tone is more to the sense that this discussion is BRAND NEW INFORMATION, while earlier in the thread it was a bit more. This thread seems to be simultaneously losing it's burst and finding it's [cliched] rhythym.

Nick Drake. Not real sure on his influence but sure of my enjoyment of the music.

I respect the impact Elvis had but I don't get a lot of enjoyment from the music. Just never loved it.

Black Flag influenced a Shit load of acts.

OK, at this point confusion creeps in.



Costello or Presley?

Costello. Hands down. That has no bearing on popularity or impact just me sitting down and enjoying music.

Shit, I haven't even opened up my Fugazi, Smiths, Pixies, Sonic Youth, Flag, Husker Du bag yet.


Simmer Down Now!!!

I put Costello right around Cohen, with a major elevation d/t his Radio stunt on SNL.

That is fair. Though I like Costello's fringe and new ideas while being popular enough to stay relevant. I see Cohen as a great but safer act.

LMAO (This isn't a sarcastic laugh but a laugh from the heart)

If you're ever in LA, give me a buzz. I have several Grammy winning engineers and producer friends that would fight you to the death over your words. Me? I'm not nearly that passionate about it. I respect The Beatles, Martin, Emerick, Scott, the EMI & Abbey Road guys but I don't and won't defend them 'til death.

And as for the Beach Boys, YES. They don't get nearly the pub for their innovative songwriting and recordings publicly as they should.

One of my friends manages Brian Wilson. JFC, the stories I could tell...

:D

Elvis Costello is a genius of epic proportions. It's unfortunate that he probably won't be recognized as such until years after his passing but he will be recognized.

I view Cohen as a poet who cannot sing.

Cohen's Hallelujah is beginning to rival McCartney for covers, on the simple premise that telling you what the song is doing to you is sufficient catharsis, while Costello's 'watching the detectives' only reminds you that reggae can be slowed down is weaker sauce.

Sorry to take this convo a million ways but...one artist I really love that I think should get more credit is Josh Rouse. This seems to be shared by almost nobody.

That an Jude...but my case for Jude is much weaker...fell in love with an album in the late 90's and have been waiting for that quality since.

I bought this "Storytellers VH1" CD at Goodwill and ended up loving it. One of the songs is Elvis Costello. I think it's called, "just a memory," but I'm not sure. The chorus goes, "losing you, is just a memory, memories don't mean that much to me." I scream that song at the top of my longs when I hear it. And ya know what? That is the only Elvis Costello song I've ever heard. I want to check out more of it. Which songs/albums do I start with?

Temple of the Dog included members of Mother Love Bone (Jeff Ament and Stone Gossage), Chris Cornell and Matt Cameron of Soundgarden and their friend, Mike McCready. The record was recorded in eight days, over the course of four weekends.

I have a long winded story about Eddie Vedder/Scott Weiland, both of which originated from the same band/guitarist/visionary from San Diego. It was no coincidence that they initially sounded the "same" back in 1992...

Now we are talking! I am a crazy stalker-esque Elvis Costello fan. To the point of not only having pretty much any and all recording but also tracking down any OTHER artists he mentions as an influence or person he likes and studying them as well. yeah I know, sad.

It was Costello that turned me on to the Specials, the Pogues, Nick Lowe, Chet Baker, the Flying Burrito Brothers, the Louvin Brothers, Jesse Winchester and countless others...

OH and Aimee Mann... here is one of my favorite songs that they wrote together.. if anyone is interested.

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I'll have to take you up on that! I bet I could hold my own in that fight!

And once again, I am not trying at all to denigrate the Beatles or any of the engineers mentioned. I absolutely love them and the product produced. I just think the record could be set a little more straight. :D

LOL. Again, not as an insult.

I must warn you that these guys are ****ing brutal. I like and respect The Beatles, while admittedly, not being a fan. But those that are fans: Watch out!

http://www.recordingthebeatles.com/

This is an absolutely phenomenal book that I highly recommend to any Beatles aficionado. Not only is there specific information about what microphone was used for several recordings, the photographs are worth the price of admission alone.

And Brian is an amazing producer and archivist/mastering engineer in his own right.