The point is that going "safe" at 1.1 in a draft that doesn't have a true sure thing is kind of counter-intuitive.

That going "safe" helps you build a solid team but makes it more difficult to find true stars and build an outstanding team.

It is for me. The losing really wore me out and took my passion. I'm just not a true fan anymore and I try to look at the big picture. I just want to win. I don't care how we do it. It's a lot easier to be invested when we are winning consistently.

They don't want an outstanding team. They want a repeat of the 90's.

Winning in the regular season rings hollow when you never come close to winning a championship.

The "big picture" is that outside of the Lions, Royals, and a few other teams, the Chiefs playoff drought is one of the worst in ALL of professional sports, not just football.

By the way, that's a perfect example of a "2nd place attitude".

You'd rather win in the regular season consistently than win it all. Talk about defeatist.

Don't be an idiot.

Read the posts and then chime in. People around here LOVE to refer to the good old days "when we were a contender". So much of a contender that we won zero playoff games after Montana left.

They had to choose between Albert and Bowe. After they chose Bowe, keeping Albert was never going to be an option going forward. This year, we would have never been able to afford Veldeer or Munroe either. If we hadn't taken Fisher, we would be looking at taking an OT in this year's first round and probably at pick #23. Fisher is going to be better than Cyrus Kouandjio and that's exactly who we'd be looking at in this draft if we passed on an OT in 2013.

Fisher isn't better than Donald Stephenson, a THIRD round pick.

Nothing you said here is even remotely true. 100% speculation.

Bet you were one of those, Carl doesn't want a championship, he just wants a full Arrowhead, guys.

Over Talib and DRC? Certainly.

But Clady and Campbell? No way.

Clady was arguably the best LT in the NFL prior to his injury. Great LTs are harder to find than a great RB.

Campbell is one of the most disruptive DL players of this generation and that's coming from the 5-tech position.

I wouldn't hesitate to trade Charles for either of them.

A great RB is a hell of a lot easier to replace than a great DL or OL player.

We could have gotten all 3 of those guys plus Charles in the 3rd still.

Actually, no I wasn't.

I was the President of the Carlpologists and was even accused of being on his payroll.

See, I have this thing about looking at things realistically. People tend to only look at this team in polar extremes so realism is something that's really hard to digest for them.

You'd have an argument if there actually were any "outstanding" skills players in that draft. There weren't.

Many of them could develop into good skill players. Unless we're already writing them off.

Oopsie...

This argument really doesn't work. Just because the cost of Albert was going to become too prohibitive doesn't mean they have to use a Round 1 pick to replace him.

Nothing says the Chiefs would need to find a RT in the first round or even in the draft, period, had they not drafted Fisher.

Good OL can be found all over the place. Including the 3rd round and later.

The reality is no coach, owner, or GM is satisfied with making the playoffs. They all want to build a championship team.

I read your post as "they" meaning "the Chiefs."

If you meant "they" as in "Chiefs season ticket holders," then I think yeah... you're probably right.

But the Chiefs - Hunt, Dorsey, Reid, et al... those guys want a championship and thinking otherwise is silly. That's what I was referring to, but it occurs to me now that you were talking about the fans.

Just curious, who were you actually advocating for in that draft? None of this retrospective ish, who was it that you wanted to take #1 overall?

I wanted Geno Smith. Of course, that turned out to be wrong.

And of course, that has NOTHING at all to do with the discussion at hand. There were several options that were better than Eric Fisher.

I think you're overrating Campbell, but that's me. My point is in most drafts for every team, you'll find a better player than the one you took, later in the draft. The 2008 draft was really good. To say it hurt us, is nuts.

Totally agree. Some are just better at it than others...

I was talking about finding a player who can be a star, present or future. Sheldon Richardson, Star Lotulelei (though I was not high on him at the draft, many were), Eric Reid,Ezekial Ansah are all examples of guys already playing at that level. And Tavon Austin, in Andy Reid's offense and with jamaal Charles drawing attention? He certainly would qualify as a skills player with "outstanding" potential.

ROFL That has everything to do with it. Thanks for proving my point for me.

You would have picked Clady at #5?

ROFL

Of course. You can't argue the merits of the actual point, so you divert the conversation into a meaningless tangent that has nothing at all to do with the HERE AND NOW.

What a ****ing moron.

So you want to give two seconds for the first franchise QB you've had in a about a decade and bank on finding that gem of a 3rd round OT? Most GMs just aren't going to go that route. That's a good way to get fired.

Also, if they thought Stephenson was starting LT material, they wouldn't have drafted Fisher imo. I'm sure he got a good look.

They had Branden Albert tagged. They had a full year to find someone. They didn't HAVE to take a tackle #1 overall.

They took Fisher because they felt like they were stuck. Reading any of their interviews from before the draft pretty much made that obvious.

We did have Eric Winston on the team, who didn't do too terribly. He's starting for the Cardinals right now and doing a reasonable job.

We could have tried to legitimately re-sign Albert had we not drafted Fisher and been just fine.

This ^


& Yes it's entertaining :p

You don't think they took the 2014 draft class into consideration? You don't think they projected where they would realistically be picking and where the top three tackles would go in 2014. Hell, even the 49ers projected it and put a 2nd round conditional clause in the Alex Smith trade. All Dorsey talked about last year was BPA. He seems like a straight shooter to me. Sorry dude but, realistic you are not.

If Dorsey was being true to his BPA philosophy, then he sucks at his job.

Fisher was NOT the best player in the draft. It was pretty evident even before the draft, but especially now.

They would have come into Year 1 (with that stop-gap, make us respectable QB) with an established, top 10 LT and a promising young player with good physical ability at RT. How is that any different than how they started the 2013 season? (It's not).

And they'd still be looking at the same decision regarding Albert. As it is, they're going into that QB's second season looking like they will use that same promising third-round player in a starting spot (and LT if they align them based on merit so far) ... and still with a complete unknown/unproven guy at the other tackle.

Throwing 1st round picks at the T spot is not the only way to get good players in there. Except, apparently, in KC.

How could they when they had absolutely no idea where they would be picking? If they automatically assumed that Fisher would be their only chance at a top tackle, they're more short-sighted than a lot of the people here.

It's funny that you talk them up and talk them up and then make statements like this, basically insinuating without even realizing it, that they're not all that smart.

We have a full season of games, dude. They may have thought Fisher was the BPA at the time but he clearly wasn't. CLEARLY.

You're talking about everything in retrospect.

Before the 2013 season, no one would have even considered any of those guys you mentioned at #1 overall. The only one I would have considered would've been Star but that quickly fell by the wayside after his heart condition was discovered.

In retrospect, Keenan Allen should have been the 1st WR taken.

Kiko Alonso should have gone in the top 10.

In retrospect, Tom Brady should have went #1 overall in his draft class.

People being pissed at the Fisher pick now are just being stupid. He was the only choice that would have really made sense at the time given how our roster looked and everything that we did in the off-season in terms of cleaning house, re-signing players, signing FAs, and how the draft prospects were shaping up both on and off the field.

Well, except for the fact that the best LT in franchise history, and one of the best LT in the history of the game, wash picked up for a 3rd-round pick because NO thought he was gimpy.

Um yeah. It happened in the past, did it not.

That's what separates the winners from the also-rans. Finding guys that don't fit the mold.

ROFL

Here's to another 2 decades of futility.

Yeah but, they didn't like Stephenson in that role. They didn't trust him as a stop gap. So much so that they chose not to trade Albert when they could have. I am sure they did their due diligence on Stephenson. Imo he wasn't that great when he started at LT. He's a good back up but he's not starting material on that side imo.

Yeah, no, we should have taken Geno Smith! :clap:

So much so that when Albert went down, they inserted Stephenson in at LT.

If Stephenson isn't starting material, what does that make Fisher?

It's time for people to come to terms with the fact that the Chiefs took a RT at 1.1. Does that mean Fisher is a lost cause? Not to me. Fisher can still be a productive play and contribute from the right side of the line.

It just wasn't an efficient use of the resources at hand. There's no other way to slice it.

Except that I NEVER said that. I ***WANTED*** Geno Smith leading up to the draft.

After watching him play, I said that taking him CLEARLY would have been a MISTAKE.

Stop acting like a ****ing moron and stick to the actual argument.

I'd bet Fisher starts the season at LT.

They switched Fisher's position. They didn't want to move him back to left because they didn't want to put too much on him. He was a rookie. Reid talked about this last fall. Fisher is going to be the starting LT next year like it or not.

Putting too much on him? How would it be putting too much on him to move him back to his natural spot where he's played for years? The spot where his natural reactions would kick back in?

Despite all of the adulation for Dorsey and Reid here that they don't care about draft position and they're going to start the guys that earn it, I'll be he does too.

For the long-term health of the team, it's probably necessary. I just hope Alex Smith doesn't get killed in the process.

What should they have done? And you don't get the benefit of hindsight, because you're not giving it to the Chiefs. You wanted Geno Smith, as did I, as did a lot of people.

The Chiefs clearly used their resources better than we would have. Because a starting right tackle is significantly more valuable than a bust of a QB.

So what should they have done? As long as your complaining, how about offering a legitimate alternative?

See my previous post.

So many here like to praise Reid and Dorsey for the "no bullshit" approach, they're gonna play the best guy, they don't care about appearances they're going to do what's right.

But then when they play Fisher at RT, it's because he needs to "learn and grow".

So much circular logic.

Who would I have taken? Dion Jordan or Barkevious Mingo.

If Geno is a bust after one season, so is Fisher. You can't give one the benefit of development time and not the other.

As for alternatives, I already provided one. Milliner, whether anybody wants to admit it or not, is a legitimate alternative. In fact, we are in the EXACT SAME SITUATION at CB as we were with LT last year. So if you're going to use that logic to support the drafting of Fisher, you can't discount taking Milliner as not viable.

I think it's the only thing that adds up. They started this plan to deal with Albert hitting free agency last offseason, and they invested a #1 pick. It would make no sense give up on Fisher before they ever even tried him as the full-time starter LT.

Of course not. Especially after they spent a VERY valuable pick on him. It's prudent to get the most production out of him that you possibly can.

I think people are having trouble separating the player from the pick. If Eric Fisher becomes a full-time starter at right tackle, he's a valuable player.

It still wasn't an efficient use of the #1 overall pick.

Yep

He had never played LT in the NFL. From the day he came in they groomed him to play RT in 2014. He was the #1 overall pick and that is a lot of pressure. I'm sorry you don't get it man. The transition from a smaller college to pros is not easy in the first place. Couple that with learning a new position and he had enough on his plate.

I'd say Reid is a proven coach and knows what he's doing. Throw in the fact that he has experience as a personnel guy and it's easy to understand why he didn't play Fisher at LT when Albert got hurt. Experience goes a long way and he handled the situation well imo.

Excuses.

ROFL I'm just the messenger man.

Milliner would have been just as bad of a bust as Fisher. That's my problem with all of this. People act like there was a guy sitting on the board that everyone wanted at #1 and has backed it up on the field.

There are plenty of guys who fit in ONE of those categories, but not both.

Dion Jordan and Mingo included. And what... a backup pass rusher at #1? Again, I'll take the starter over the backup when drafting first overall.

This is all so ****ing silly.

Messenger from whom?

Dorsey and Reid would also consider those excuses. If you don't think they expected more out of the #1 overall pick, you're foolishly naive.

Jordan has the chance to be a game changer. Mingo has a chance to be a game changer. The play premium positions.

Eric Fisher could be the best right tackle in the history of football and still not be a game changer. His position alone prevents it.

EDIT: And yes, it is silly. It wasn't a good pick. I know that's a hard pill to swallow for some...

How? The money situation would be the exact same as it is now. The price of the first pick's contract is the same if he's a QB, a OT, or a kicker.The decision was made when we re-signed Bowe.

I was fine with Winston too and questioned that move.

Also, don't be surprised if we take a defensive linemen with our first pick. It is definitely possible and there are a couple that would fit our system really well that are projected to be there. Are you going to go postal if we take a DE or DT at #23? It's a real possibility. Especially if we don't re-sign Jackson.

I was just playing with you a little but I am being honest when I say that the fact that you, along with a lot of people on CP, wanted to draft Geno Smith just goes to prove my point.

There was no perfect prospect at #1 overall. Just look at the top 10 of that draft evaluated purely on a hit or miss basis based entirely upon their rookie season without taking injuries, possible future improvements, etc. into consideration:

1. Eric Fisher, OT - miss (played injured a lot and played poorly too often because of it, weak sauce as a rookie)
2. Luke Joeckel, OT - miss (inj. and poor play)
3. Dion Jordan, DE/OLB - miss (coaching decision/scheme fit)
4. Lane Johnson, OT - decent (inconsistent play and looked bad early on, got better as season progressed and became middle of the pack OT)
5. Ziggy Ansah, DE - decent (solid 8 sacks as a rookie, not spectacular but decent production)
6. Barkevious Mingo, OLB/DE- miss (disappointing rookie year especially considering all of the talent he is playing next to)
7. Jonathan Cooper, OL- miss (injury made him miss entire year)
8. Tavon Austin, WR- miss (really really weak player who will be nothing but a slot guy, Rams tried too hard to make it work with him on the outside)
9. Dee Milliner, CB- miss (sucked all season long, benched multiple times for a UDFA)
10. Chance Warmack, OG - miss (really inconsistent rookie season, just like almost all of the other top rookie OL players)

It doesn't prove anything. What we wanted to do before the draft has nothing at all to do with what the situation is now, with the benefit of hindsight.

Any of the non-OL would have been better picks than Fisher. Literally any of them.

With Hali and Houston in the fold, neither Jordan nor Mingo would have seen the light of day barring injury. Plus, neither of those guys had great rookie years either. Jordan couldn't beat out either of the current Miami starters last year. Mingo severely underperformed despite playing with dominant talent around and in front of him.

I won't be surprised. This team has gotten really good at spending 1st round picks poorly.

So basically the same as Fisher.

Again, Fisher's overall impact is limited by his position.

If you're going to throw shit against the wall, at least give yourself a chance...

So everyone was pretty much a miss. You're dumb.

At least our miss was safe. Didn't put anybody's eye out with that dart.

that's a little deceptive, you have to show the guys that slipped out of the top 10.

11 San Diego Chargers D. J. Fluker OT -(hit)
12 Oakland Raiders D. J. Hayden CB -(miss)/injured
13 New York Jets Sheldon Richardson DT -(hit) stud
14 Carolina Panthers Star Lotulelei DT -(hit) stud
15 New Orleans Saints Kenny Vaccaro S -(hit)
16 Buffalo Bills E. J. Manuel QB -(?)/injured
17 Pittsburgh Steelers Jarvis Jones LB -decent, could turn into a hit because they just cut Woodley.
18 San Francisco 49ers Eric Reid† S -(hit)
19 New York Giants Justin Pugh OT -okay
20 Chicago Bears Kyle Long† G -(hit) stud

Well, yeah? We should have drafted Brady in the 1st when he came out? There's a ton of stuff you can say we should have done with hindsight, which is why it's stupid to try to make an argument using hindsight. Coulda, shoulda, woulda.

Your problem is that your entire argument is based on fantasy whereas mine is based on facts.

I'm just telling you that Dorsey pretty much made the only choice that he could have made with the cards that were dealt to him without the benefit of "hindsight".

Again, if you're "stuck" and taking a flyer, you take the guy whose position has the potential to impact the game the most.

Safe is for pussies.

Joeckel is already a miss after playing 4 games and part of another?

Poor play? They felt confident enough in his play at RT to trade away Eugene Monroe and move him to left tackle. He gave up a few sacks, but he was playing at RT, where he'd never played before.

He got his leg rolled up on by a defensive lineman in the Rams game and broke his ankle. That does not make him brittle. It probably would have happened to anyone.

Did you actually see him play a down this year outside of the KC game, or are you just pulling things out of the air?

Yeah, and LT is one of the most impactful positions in this league. If you don't have a good OL, you won't have a consistent offense. There's a reason why teams place an emphasis on building in the trenches first before addressing the perimeter.

Truly groundbreaking. I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

You don't need 1st round draft picks to have a dominant line. The most dominant line in team history had only 1 first round draft pick on it and he wasn't drafted by the Chiefs.

How many top 5-10 draft OT play on championship teams? Okung and? In fact, if you look at all the OTs drafted in the top 5 over the past 10 years, you'll see teams like Cleveland and Jacksonvile that are picking top 5 EVERY YEAR.

Joe Thomas is great. He's been so good for the Browns.

The hit rate was, at best, still around only 50% for the top 20. That's terrible odds that high in the draft.

Kyle Long was very good for a rookie, you are just being difficult now to try and look like some NFL evaluation expert.

Jarvis Jones is not a miss when he was being groomed behind a veteran they just ****ing cut. Steelers have depth at pass rusher, imagine that. Something the Chiefs know nothing about and it killed our season entirely when our 2 pass rushers out of 53 players went down.

Yup, Joeckel played worse than Fisher in the games that he started. He's a miss due to his injury, meaning he contributed little in his rookie year. Jags were fools to let Monroe go.

Yeah, Monroe was so good they won 22 games in 4 seasons with him. In his 1 season as a full-time LT, they won 2 whole games.

You're just making shit up.

Not trying to single you out specifically, but I've seen this argument used lately and it doesn't really hold water.

Using wins and losses to guage a player isnt efficient. Because they didn't win X amount of games, doesn't make Monroe a bad player (or a good player for that matter). Same here with Albert thru all the years we sucked. There is just too much that plays in to wins and losses in the NFL.

Again, basing it entirely on their contributions as rookies. Jones wouldn't have started here either, plus he is slow as hell and was a much better run defender than he was a pass rusher.

I'm being as critical of all of these rookies as everyone on here is of Fisher and judging them as if they would have been the #1 overall pick.

The only ones who would have truly been a hit at #1 overall as rookies, IMO, would have been Star and Sheldon. Of the 2, Star was the only one that I would have considered at #1. However, that was prior to his heart condition being discovered. After that, I moved him down with the medical red flag because heart conditions concern me.

they probably thought that they wouldnt be able to sign him longterm and wanted some compensation for him. they also wanted to move Joeckel to LT since he wasnt progressing at RT. injuries happen.

Richardson or Star should have been the pick, using hindsight. Or Vacarro.