I think a few posts on here hit the nail on the head--it is the use of an object that determines its association in our minds, not the object itself. If liberated blacks in the South had carried the flag after the war, then the flag would've been a symbol for freedom...when it was used by the KKK, it was associated with hate...as with any object (Confederate flag, Swastika, cigar, etc.) it's use will cause an association...if you were raised in a place where the flag was looked upon as good, then that's how you'll see it...if you were raised where it was carried by Klan members, you'll probably see it the other way.

It all depends.

I have seen it both ways, but find that a majority of people who display it tend to have racist tendencies. I should know—-I went to college in Springfield, MO, and saw my share of them.

Mark M
--White, non-racist Lurker <P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Helvetica, verdana, ariel">quote:</font><HR>it is the use of an object that determines its association in our minds, not the object itself.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
YEAH!! Just 'cuz panties are mostly found on women doesn't mean they can't be comfortable for men as well. Right Clint?

Wait. . . What were we talking about?

http://members.tripod.com/~txscv/13sb.gif

http://members.tripod.com/~txscv/battle.gif

which image is most offensive?...they stand for the same thing...

[This message has been edited by 58Forever (edited 10-06-2000).]

[This message has been edited by 58Forever (edited 10-06-2000).]

[This message has been edited by 58Forever (edited 10-06-2000).]

How can an inanimate object be racist?

Some people who fly the Confederate battle flag might be folks who hate other folks based on the color of their skin and regret that the Civil War paved the way for the end of slavery.

Some people who fly the Confederate battle flag might be states rights advocates who abhor the fact that states were refused the right to secede from what they considered an oppressive institution. A union they joined voluntarily, but were prevented from leaving by force of arms.

Some people who fly the Confederate battle flag might have pride in the bravery and courage shown by their native sons in time of war.

The flag is not racist, any more than a cross or swastika is racist.

Racism is making your decisions based solely on the criteria of race. A flag is not capable of doing that. People who fly the flag might be capable of that sin. People who object to the flying of the flag might also be capable of that sin.

xoxo~
gaz
suspects that his calculator may have Communist sympathies.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Helvetica, verdana, ariel">quote:</font><HR> [Gaz] suspects that his calculator may have Communist sympathies. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey maybe Bush is right, Gore did invent it!!<BR>

JC--
LMAO!!

Gaz--
Exactly my point. An object itself is not racist. But it can bring up racist associations...depending on your experience. When I was growing up, it wasn't a Confederate flag but a Rebel flag--I know, same damn thing, but the "Rebel" tag meant that if you had one, you were a rebel, didn't listen to authority, etc.

However, when I went to college and roomed with a KA (the fraternity that sees General Robert E. Lee as its role model) I got a different persepective. His fraternity saw the flag as an antithesis to the tyranny and hypocritical nature of the US gov't.

Another person on my hall (not a KA) saw the flag as his calling card--he was a Klan member and displayed the flag wherever and whenever he could. For him, it was a symbol of pride, and symbol of his "master race."

The person across from us was black. He saw the flag one way--as a racist symbol that made him uncomfortable. He figured everyone that owned one or carried one was a racist out to oppress him.

I saw all of this take place one semester. The Klan memeber trying to be friends with the KA and the KA trying to prove to the African-American that the flag wasn't a racist symbol. The Klan member wouldn't even look at the African-American, and vice-versa.

I see it as both--a symbol for states rights and the calling card of the clan. It depends on whether its flying over a statehouse or in a KKK parade.

Mark M
--A Lurker trying to have it both ways

The flag is only racist because Jesse Jackson was bored at the time. Here we are all worried about who will win the presidency. WHY?? Jesse Jackson has more power than our president just as the NAACP has MORE power than our own government.

Something is wrong with this picture.

This is an interesting subject, and I enjoy reading diverse opinions, but those of you claiming that the Civil War was fought over slavery really need to do some research. The American educational system has seriously short-changed you on your comprehension of our history.

Go to the library. Read and research the period leading up to the outbreak of hostilities. Claiming that the Civil War was fought over slavery is like claiming that World War One was fought over the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand.

xoxo~
gaz
prefers discussing history rather than myth.<BR>

47mack-

Could you possibly explain to me how the NAACP has more power than the United States government? Sorry to be a stick in the mud if that was merely hyperbole, but I just couldn't let you get away with such a bizarre statement without backing it up....

Mark

Gaz--

Bless you, sir. States rights was the deal...northerners had slaves, too, it's just that the North's economy wasn't damn near totally dependent upon that slave labor. I think that's why the history books always make it a slave issue...it makes the South look bad.

Mark M
--Forever a Lurker, getting a history lesson from Gaz http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/smile.gif

Gaz-

Civil War history is something that fascinates me as well. My interest in the subject intensified when I discovered that an ancestor of mine had fought in the War on the Union side.

While I am an admitted occasional Confederate sympathizer (the whole lost cause bit is so darn romantic) wouldn't it seem that the whole states' rights issue essentially stems back to slavery??

Mark-
playing devil's advocate.

It is just my opinion. Whenever the NAACP wants something, it is given to them. That shows me power.

When was the last time Jesse Jackson was told no? or to shut the hell up? or hey, YOU and YOU'RE racist thoughts need to go?

In all reality, no, the NAACP doesn't have more power that the U.S. gov't, but they do have way too much.

I am not even close to being a racist, although I do think that there are certian groups that bring negativity to their race. I think that the whole idea of the NAACP existance will cause some whites to remain racist for a long time. Why, because some are tired of catering to others for something that happened long before our existance.

Just my opinion.

More on the Civil War issue-

Granted there were significant cultural and economic differences between the North and the South. And certainly more than a few times the North was thrust into the role of bad guy. However it would seem that when the states argued to "maintain their way of life" and so forth they were simply pleading to prop up their economy with the slave labor that allowed rich white men to prosper in an agricultural economy. Granted the vast majority of Southerners did not own slaves, but it would seem that slave labor accounted for a large portion of the South's gross product.

Mark

47mack-

An argument could certainly be made that Louis Farakhan and Co. are racist, although I fail to concur that one group of extremists can reflect poorly on an entire race of people. Nonetheless, I disagree that the NAACP is racist. They are a pretty mainstream group last I checked... and most of their goals I agree with, those being equal opportunity and equal representation in all professional fields for minorities.

Mark-
since when was fairness racist??

Mark-

Slavery is an essential issue in understanding the Civil War and was a crucial factor in the clash of lifestyles that lead up to the attempt to break up the Union. My problem is that the Civil War has been re-cast as a noble crusade against slavery, with the upstanding North battling the evil South.

That is so distorted as to become untrue.

I don't see how people can have a discussion about the Civil War until we all understand that it was not a holy Crusade. This twisted view of history is the fault of the American educational system. The winners write the history and the North was quick to alter the facts to make itself look better to people downstream in time.

Once you do some reading an understand the causes that lead up to "The Late Unpleasantness," you can put slavery in its place as one of the factors that escalated a probably-inevitable break between the industrial North and the agrarian South.

xoxo~
gaz
fascinated by the sweep of history.<BR>