I don't think Baby Lee and I are devaluing quarterbacks. We all want a whoopass quarterback. I assumed this was just a debate about Troy Aikman, who was the Curtis Martin of quarterbacks. You don't have to worry about the position with those guys and they'll perform well, but you don't necessarily build a team around them to highlight their skills. When Shula got Marino, he changed from a run-first team to a pass-first team. The Cowboys never became a pass-first team. The only conclusion is that they thought their team's talents were best suited for a run-first team.

But 8-8 is what I strive for. It's perfect symmetry. Yin and Yang. Why would I seek imbalance?

You do understand that Aikman was the 1st pick right, yes they had alot of good players but he was the 1st player Jimmy Johnson drafted and the guy they built the rest of the team around.

Just because they were a team that was built on running the ball and playaction passing does not devalue what Aikman was or what he meant to him, he was the guy that kept that team in line on the field.

ROFL ROFL - if only there were a word that encapsulated . . . .

Yea because the Cowboys were never inline on the field right....for all their issues they were always kept in line on the field because every single player on that team had respect for Aikman.

How'd the Cowboys do, though, when Emmitt Smif held out and they were starting Sherman Williams or whomever? I seem to recall that that was ugly. Then Emmitt Smif came back and I think they won the Super Bowl.

I think Johnson was a good coach purely because he didn't build the team around one player. He built a team (at least, an offense) that was strong all around. But if I had to pick the centerpiece of that offense, it was Smif.

Dang it. Gotta go. Keep fighting the good fight, Baby Lee.

If you had taken Aikman away the same thing would have happened....they were both equally valuable which is why they are both HOFers.

You're drinking, aren't you? Mouse turds?

Wasn't laughing about the thought that Aikman kept them in line. I'm laughing because keeping them in line is what a game manager does, and you touted it as his best skill after arguing for weeks that to call him that is an insult.

.....god you're a reerun.

The game wasn't nearly that close. It was an ass kicking.

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That's just a game manager folks, uh huh.

Actually Grbac "managed" the hell out of that Denver game. He just couldn't make plays when they couldn't run the football. A true franchise QB would have won that game.

The great Derek Lassic. He of Alabama National Title fame.

They lost a shitload of talent from 92-93. To say that it was all just Emmitt Smith is a farce.

Jimmy Johnson even said to Trumpy before the Super Bowl "Last year we had a Royal Flush, this year we have a Full House."

You know, Hamas, you could have saved all that typing by just presenting the concise and condensed version.

Which IS:

"Do You Want Matt Stafford As The Chiefs QBOTF"?

See, there it is! Not so hard, yes?

I agree with you on this. I just wanted to differentiate Alabam RB's there.

Hey and Aikman was almost just as good as Young and Marino on Super Tecmo II.

I'm not sure it's really even a comparable scenario, as the Cowboys had to get past the other Dynasty-funded team of the 49ers. It's not like you could win with just good players at some positions, you had to be solid all over the place to win it all. You couldn't even get those teams anywhere near the field with the current cap structure.

Man, he DID throw one beautiful spiral.

On another forum they were talking about qb heights.
Aikman was bigger than elway.
Those little impish zone blockers made elway look bigger and cowboys huge(at the time) made aikman look smaller.
Off the top of my head I would have never guessed it.

There is hope with clark last year saying developing a qb was a priority.
At least Clark thinks its important so there is reason to hope.

So what I've learned is a HOFer and one of the best QB's of his era is a "game manager" if you told me any QB would be as good as Aikman was I'd say trade the entire trade for him.

i can't even believe what i'm reading in this thread

Aikman was just a "game manager?"



wtf??????

That should have said draft...damn late typos, trade the entire draft for him.

It's because Aikman didn't throw for 50 TD's or 4500 yards or some other pretty fantasy stats. He could have had them but they didn't play that way....

You guys are the ones putting 'just' before the operant term. You guys are the ones who say that the shittiest game managers are the 'quintessential' game managers.
He was a vital part of a good team across the board, and because they were a good team across the board, they didn't go through games, let alone eras where people were saying 'geez, if they didn't have Aikman, they'd suck balls.' He didn't make mistakes, he read the game and orchestrated it, he provided a leadership foundation, but he didn't carry the team on his shoulders. THAT'S what we mean by game manager, not some guy who doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground when the chips are down.
Certainly, when the team sucked early on, he sucked right along with them. But who knows, maybe he could 'carry' a team, but Jimmy Johnson was smart enough to build a team that was strong everywhere and that wasn't necessary

Aikman to me is the boderline case between game manager / HOF-type quarterback. Those that want to claim you don't have to have a HOF-type quarterback to have a dynasty SHOULD use the 1992-1995 Cowboys because it is the ONLY possible example. One thing about those teams -- put a 2002-2005 Trent Green on those teams instead of Aikman. I say they are just as good.

i'm sorry, but Kerry Collins with the Titans is a game manager...Steve Bono was a game manager....

calling Troy Aikman a game manager is well...you fill in the blank...

this fanbase is so desperate to define down the QB position...you know, if there isn't any difference between Kerry Collins and Troy Aikman then we don't need to draft a QB! we can just sign another vet!!

sorry, there is no polite way for me to say this....you are freaking clueless

There is certainly no doubt that Aikman is better than Collins/Dilfer, but I don't think he is as good as the other dynasty QBs.

You are the one who feels the need to handicap your visualization of a concept by pretending those who suck at it are doing it the best.

Collins and Bono are SHITTY game managers, Aikman and Simms are EXCELLENT game managers.

It's like saying "don't call Michael Jordan a shooting guard, shooting guards are POSs like Jamal Crawford.'

which is a separate issue

the guy was a franchise QB

While I absolutely disagree with calling Troy Aikman a "game manager", I can see why some people might feel that way. Those Cowboys teams didn't NEED Aikman to win, as evidenced by the team's record when he missed games due to injury.

In 1991, he missed 4 games. Steve Beuerlein came in and went 4-0

In 1992, he missed 2 games. Jason Garrett and Bernie Kosar combined for a 1-1 record.

In 1994, he missed 2 games. Jason Garrett and Rodney Peete combined for a 2-0 record.


So, in 8 games missed in his prime, and the Cowboys prime, the likes of Steve Beuerlein, Jason Garrett, Bernie Kosar and Rodney Peete led the team to a 7-1 record.

Again, I think calling Aikman a game manager is extreme, but I can see why some people would feel that way.

come on..this kind of analysis is pure bullshit and you know it

it's bad logic to boot

saying they would win titles without him is absurd, and saying they'd win titles with "jason garrett" is ****ing reeruned

what is wrong with you people?

Further name one notable time when the situation was "they're running and passing on us with abandon, we're getting stuffed in the run game, we're 20 points down, thank god Aikman put the team on his back and engineered that huge comeback."

Did I say that?

You really need to pull your head out of your ass and actually READ people's posts before you spout off.

I didn't say a word about winning titles. I mentioned that when he missed time in the REGULAR SEASON, the team didn't miss a beat.

I also said that I didn't agree with the people that are calling him a game manager - I'm on your side on this, dipshit.

I'm pointing out WHY I THINK some people might feel that he was a game manager. I'm not agreeing with the premise.

Jesus, you've turned into a Grade-A ****stick lately. Step back, take some time and READ what people have to say before you just auto-respond with your typical tripe.

When Aikman was concussed, Kosar won them HFA and engineered winning drives in the playoffs for them, and when Emmitt was down to one arm, they still rode HIM, not the passing game, to 200 all purpose yards.

Matt Cassell is winning games in New England

ergo, Tom Brady isn't a franchise player...anyone could have won those titles
ergo, we don't need to draft a QB
ergo, RT is the most important position on the team

this is what passes for intelligence with chiefs fans

IOC

Like I was saying...

He never had to, because he had a phenomenal team around him.

However, he engineered MANY 4th quarter and last minute drives to win games.

You can't blast a guy for never/rarely having the opportunity to come back from multiple scores down.

I'm not blasting him, I'll take a solid team with a solid, knowledgeable, skilled, mistake free leader over a sketchy team with a gunslinger who thinks he's the reason everyone gathered together today every day of the week.

Sorry, I must have misread your post then. I read it differently.

Anyway, I see both sides of the argument.

I think part of the problem, is that Mecca and TTC think the term game manager is some kind of slur, that it comes with a negative connotation.

You can be a game manager AND a franchise QB, IMO.

Case in point, Palmer may not have thought he was the be all end all shit, but it's pretty clear the way the team responded to his injury in the playoffs, THEY thought he was, so there even when you have the perfect franchise QB who does all the right things, the team can fall to shit around you. You think the Cowboys of the 90s or Parcell's Giants would've fallen completely apart [either that day, or in ensuing seasons] with the temporary loss of Aikman or Simms, the way the Bengals did?

Chief fans biggest rivals are....







...other chief fans.

Sure seems that way, doesn't it?

Do you still park over by BRC?

We're gonna swing by and say hi at some point tomorrow.

I'll be in the grass between A and B lots....glad you got tix...I had two extra tickets for the charger game....:doh!:.

I'll try to find you tomorrow, worst case, we'll come down to your seat at some point, we're just sitting a few sections over...

awesome...I'm sure lucky to be Elvis otherwise you wouldn't even care...

Aikman made throws that Trent Green never could have sniffed...his arm was so ridiculous.

Aikman was one of the best and most talented QB's of that era the only thing that doesn't suggest that is his team didn't put it up constantly.

I'm sorry -- that's like saying that a baseball player has a lot of tools. Who the **** cares. Either he produces or does not. And the number of times you put it up does not affect your QB rating. Aikman never had a QB rating above 100 despite playing in a QB friendly system.

Look, Aikman was a very good QB, but I don't think he was a great QB.

I agree with you guys who say it's all about the QB -- but I think you need to admit that the Cowboys dynasty is the one very iffy example (or even counter-example). They had dominant personnel at just about every position.

Ok lets look at something, Troy Aikman didn't play in todays QB friendly dink and dunk offense, he threw the ball down the field routinely.

Did you see some of the throws that guy made? How about the highlight everyone has seen on his TD pass to Irvin in the Superbowl? It's a 20 yard out, the Buffalo guy is right there he has all of a foot of room and the ball gets there on a frozen rope in the perfect spot.

Today's dink and dunk? That's been around forever. Trent Green, playing in the same system, wasn't dink and dunk. In fact, I think there is less dink and dunk now because of the the Cover-2, which is really all about trying to stop the WCO.

Mecca, you are just too caught up in rifle arms. There is a hell of a lot more to QB than rifle arms.

I think it's funny how people don't seem to give Aikman any credit, the guy was a great player. If you could build your team around Troy Aikman you do it in a heartbeat.

I'll go along with that part of the statement. That's different.

I don't know what the hell happened but there sure is a lack of QB talent in football in general these days.

We went from that era to what we have now of a few guys.

I just can not comprehend how people can not see this.
Even if you want to be a defense oriented team you STILL need the qb..Pitt...NYG
I am to the point I wont argue who just get a qb with this high pick is all i ask.

Yes, because we're all asking for the Chiefs to draft an egotistical douchebag like Jeff George.

I love this false dichotomy, as though we are arguing that it's a franchise QB and 52 XFL rejects.

The fact of the matter is that the "game managers" that you annoint are game managers precisely because they don't have the talent to take over a game. You want to know what happens when you put the game on the back of a game manager? He throws five picks in the Super Bowl like Gannon or Collins did. A franchise QB does what Tom Brady and Joe Montana did.

Concurrently, there is a point of talking past one another here, where when the true fans really say "game manager" they are speaking Cowher, which means "Don't make turnovers, don't force it anywhere, and throw the ball away if you face any pressure." It's just another iteration of the conservative all hat, no cattle Marty approach where if you play it close to the vest, someone can miracle your ass a Super Bowl instead of going out and actually winning the ****ing thing.

NO! The insanity must continue at ALL COSTS!
BAD RIPPED! BAD!

Valium at table two please...

Brett F@cking Favre!!!
John F@cking Elway!!!
Dan F@cking Marino!!!


Each have pulled a "game manager" [in the derogatory manner you twist it] or two in their day. MoF, Favre threw 6 SIX!!! in a game, and last year it seems like their SEASON ended on a pick from him.

F@ck your 'false dichotomies.' where you try to lay out 'game managers are the ones who fail and throw picks when the game is important and franchise QBs are the ones who come through and win it all, however it comes about.'

It's all part and parcel of your 'seeing the bright side of life' regarding your paradigm.


And the only game managers I 'annointed' were Simms and Aikman, who won the enchilada plenty of times over. You're the one who annoints shitty QBs.

''Hamas' Last Stand!!!'

Well, see. . . since everthing else I've been saying is obliterated, might was well throw up the old 'what my opposition is saying is actually CODE!!!11oneONEONE for something much darker and seemier' gambit.

You see, game managers are like Kerry Collins who pukes on his shoes when HFA is on the line and throws an int to end the game, and franchise QBs are like Roethlisberger, who shows up as clutch passer against a stout defense to secure said HFA . . . . errrrrr.

Yeah, Carson Palmer is a shitty QB.
John Elway is a shitty QB.
Troy Aikman is a shitty QB
Ben Roethlisberger is a shitty QB.

How many "the drives" did Phil Simms have, jerkass? Yeah, Favre threw six picks in a playoff game against the Rams, he's also been to a shitload of conference title games and two Super Bowls, where he took such outstanding offensive talent as Robert Brooks, Dorsey ****ing Levens, and Mark pedofile Chmura to a Super Bowl win, and the other time he lost, it was due to a late 4th quarter drive by one of the five greatest QBs of all time.

But he managed a game once, therefore, he's a game manager.

Funny thing about Favre, though: He was asked to be a game manager last year because he's no longer a franchise QB, because he was 38 ****ing years old. And what happened when the Packers needed him to guide them down the field in OT? Pick.

I do enjoy the fact that you're too much of a prude to actually type "****" and instead keep circumventing the profanity filter. That's ****ing hilarious.

But you know what we should do?

We should continue drafting and coaching based on fear. It worked so well for Marty. Don't take a QB with a top pick because he might no work out. Then we might not have to finish 4-12. Instead, we can ride Dave Krieg to 9-7 and flame out in the playoffs, or go up against inferior teams with better QBs and get bounced in the playoffs.

I don't know how to state it any more clearly than the fact that your idol's 90's Chiefs lost to Jim Kelly twice, Dan Marino twice, and John Elway. And that these Chiefs have lost to Peyton Manning twice. And before and after KC, Marty lost to Elway two other times and Tom Brady once.

You are having a complete ****ing meltdown.

You're so desperate that you just hitched your entire wagon to Kerry ****ing Collins.

The great thing is that you completely discount the fact that Roethlisberger led his team to victory in the 4th quarter the last two weeks, and because he couldn't do it this week, he's a ****ing FAIL of a quarterback.

When Kerry Collins is asked to win a game in the 4th quarter, and he does it, call me.

I love the fact that you are so goddamned stupid that you've seen this script 20 other times and still haven't learned a goddamn thing from it. Skinner's rats would sit back and laugh at you for your gullibility.

Please, get zapped again, and remain completely unable to learn anything from firsthand observation.

Or, we can go the Marty route: Hey, we won in the regular season when we were home dogs, so we can do it in the playoffs, of course.

Weirdest smaque talking point, ever. Is there like an itch in your brain that can only be scratched by finding stranger and more oblique ways of trying to belittle others?

Hmmm, what to do, I could type ****, but I'm such a prude that usually, I can only approximate curse words with strategic use of ampersands and chiocciolinae, so maybe I'll cheat and use four asterisks, **** - ahhhh.

There are a cornucopia of ways that I can belittle you, I just find it hilarious that someone who can't contain his rage in any way in every post that you direct towards me feels the need to PG-13 his language. But please, stop deflecting and move back to the point at hand, that Kerry Collins will take the Titans deeper into the playoffs than Roethlisberger, Manning, or any other franchise QB.

It's interesting that Hamas has now changed his argument that it's not all about getting a high draft pick. I'm not sure when that 180 occurred, but I'm glad he's coming around.

Yeah, I'm the one making a million disjointed points in a million different directions, by responding to the wrong effing post in the first place.

I'm not hitching my star to anything, except that the whole team has to be good, no matter how good the QB. You're the one who's hitched his star to a premise to limited that NFL history as well as current events undermines it at every turn.

You're the one who says 'this is what great qbs do and this is what 'quintessential' game managers do' like it's anything more than a rosy gloss of actual games.

You're the one who, when he realizes the very premise ['this is what QBs like Collins do -v- this is what QBs like Roethlisberger do'] he slung out with cocksure swagger, is shot out of the water the very next day, tries to twist it so I'm pretending Collins is the greatest QB ever and Roethy is the worst. Or that, because I point out that even great QBs have shitty games, I must therefore think they suck balls.

You are just completely pulling stuff out of your ass.

This year is all about getting a high draft pick. Our coaches suck, our players are inexperienced, and the ownership didn't give a damn about competing this year. This year should be nothing but a tankfest.

I'm not hitching my wagon to Tyler Thigpen. Sorry.

I have no rage, if I had rage I wouldn't have the patience to provide you this free education, particularly the glacial rate of your progress.

The use of profanity isn't to express rage, it's to underscore the obviousness of the examples that undercut each particular example of your wrongheaded analysis.

How many Super Bowls have true game managing quarterbacks won in the last 20 years?

Aikman was not a game manager, despite however desperately you may want to make him out to be one.
Montana, Young, and Brady were not game managers. Neither Manning is a game manager. Elway and Favre were not game managers. Kurt Warner was not a game manager.

If you want some game managers who've won the Super Bowl in the last 20 years, then look at guys like Hostetler, Dilfer, Rypien, or Brad Johnson. We'll even throw in Roethlisberger at that time for shits and giggles.

Being part of a good team does not mean that the quarterback becomes a game manager just because he has talent around him. This isn't that hard to comprehend.

At no point has anyone in this thread said you can win a super bowl with a QB and nothing else. But I will stand by the statement that is the most important element of a championship team. It's the flour in every cake recipe..

Oh, and if you were looking for an answer as to how many of those Super Bowls were won by franchise QBs, the answer is 15.

And as a further addition: Eli Manning, Joe Montana, Tom Brady (twice), and Elway all had to lead their team on a drive to win the game in the Super Bowl when tied or behind. None of the winning game managers were able to do that.

You really need to become better at lying to yourself. I'd also recommend that you study irony, given that you seem to believe that the 90's Chiefs recipe, or the 2007 Jags recipe is what wins in the playoffs. It doesn't.

That's why you're beating your chest right now--because it's the regular season. When the Titans choke in the playoffs and Collins has a meltdown, come back for a serving of humble pie. I'll be right here.

So is your position that we need to trade up to get Stafford, the once in a generation talent? Or would you be satisfied getting the best-rated player at the #2 or #3 slot? I'm hearing that you think we need to trade up to get Stafford. Am I wrong?

I never said Stafford was once in a generation talent.

I did say he's the best QB prospect since Carson Palmer. There is a difference.

If we don't get Stafford and we pick #3, I'm still a hell of a lot happier than if we were picking 6.

It's not just about the first round. Yeah, you need to pick well, but you can't pick players who aren't there. We should have learned this with Brady Quinn and Eric Wright two years ago. Or Olshansky over Siavii.

Oh, okay. Twice a generation. My bad.

I'm happier if we're picking #3 than #6, too. However, at this point we really don't know who's going to be here or gone at those picks. If Stafford is a twice-a-generation talent at quarterback, he's an automatic number one pick. However, if that's the case, why is he not the consensus #1 pick of all the talking heads? (And yeah, I know that many of them don't know what they're talking about, but you'd think a twice-per-generation quarterback is a no-brainer.)

If you want Stafford, I want Stafford. I want a franchise quarterback. However, things change so much between October and April that I'm not going to try to lose games for draft position. For all we know, Stafford could go into the army or get shot by Plaxico Burress or score a 2 on his Wonderlic or get caught with marijuana, and drop 20 draft spots.

It's over 'Hahmmy.'
You're presently arguing against points not even espoused.
I don't WANT a shitty QB, I want the QB position put in the right reference frame regarding the entire team. I want you to realize that those who have it, don't have it all the time so that success with them is a no-brainer, and those who have it, still don't have much without a great team around them.
And you're plowing on, founding your premise that we have to suck, get a super high pick and use that super high pick on a QB, on the stellar play of a cadre of second day picks and a bag boy from Hyvee.
You're plowing on insisting excellent game managers aren't game managers because you don't like the term.
You don't see me espousing Cowher, so long as he finds himself a Grbac or Slash to bring along with him, and given Schotty's history here, I'm not even all that strongly in favor of him [though I'd take it, at this point, I'd rather I got to enjoy watching him build a winner elsewhere, preferably not in the AFC].
My stances aren't code for something you wish it were so you could attack. My stance is rock solid D, rock solid lines, a potent running attack, and a QB who can perform when called on, leads the team, understands the game quicker and better than anyone else on the field, and doesn't make mistakes, wherever we get him from and however he is developed.

ROFL - McNabb throws a Grbac special with the playoffs on the line.

Actually, you're completely full of shit.

You're stance is the 2007 Jags. You've said as much on this forum. The 2007 Jags really built themselves for the future, didn't they?

Rock solid D, Rock solid line, potent running attack, "QB who doesn't make mistakes".

You're the one who is equivocating because he's on the losing end of the argument.

You've basically went from "QB is just part of the team" and "I want a QB who doesn't make mistakes" to a leader with better field awareness than anyone and can carry the team in spurts. That's a franchise QB to a T.

From earlier this year:

But please, keep spinning.

It's not just about Stafford, and he's not a twice in a generation quarterback. Stop making shit up. It's about the entire draft. The draft isn't one round. This isn't the NBA where they only thing that matters is the lottery.

He's never going to admit to the Jacksonville thing because their season makes him look like a moron.

well, Palmer was drafted 6 years ago, so basically you are saying Stafford is a twice a generation QB, right?

A generation is about 25 years. (Gen X, Y)