Lot of exaggeration and hyperbole here. First off, there's no way the Chiefs could legally tap any phones in the office, let alone personal cell phones. All they can do is check logs, which include the numbers and dates/times on the office phones. It's not legal to secretly record conversations in the building either. Of course they can read company email and track internet usage as well. This happens (or can happen) in most of corporate America, so why would an NFL team be any different?

I'm not saying Pioli/Hunt aren't mad scientist, evil whack-job, Nazis. I'm just saying that this article doesn't have enough legitimate information in it that can't be argues away as he said/she said or disgruntled employee complaints. Pioli sounds like a micro-managing asshole who I'd never want to work for, but I've known people like that to do some amazing things. Although they usually burn out quickly.

The Chiefs could absolutely have the offices tapped with intercom systems and ways to hear what they are saying in private conversations in their offices.

Babb gathers information for this story:

http://www.ghostprotocolmissionimpos...possible_I.jpg

LMAO

Some employees bitch, some adapt.


The employees that bitch usually blow things out of proportion.


But, for the life of me, I can not figure out that if Pioli has such an eye for detail, how can he be blind when it comes to Cassel?

Of course than can, technically, but it is ILLEGAL.

Voice recordings are illegal without a MINIMUM one party consent in the conversation. This is why all those nanny cam spy products are camera only. It is illegal to record a conversation where none of the participants are aware they are being recorded.

EDIT:
Obviously one way to get around this would be to inform all employees AND visitors (in case two are talking without an informed employee present) that there are listening devices scattered around the facility. If all employees and guests had been made aware of this fact, this would have been news years ago.

I really don't have a dog in this fight, so to speak, but to get sort of "meta" on this thread, I'm really impressed with the intelligent and thoughtful responses from both sides on here. This board isn't the biggest in the world, but the posters are generally very knowledgeable and insightful (for the most part).

Great thread.

I think the Haley stuff was hilarious because it's a bit paranoid. But that said, there are people in this organization that came from a place where they did pretty much anything to get information, including taping practices. And McDaniels still did it when he went to Denver. I wouldn't find it hard to believe they are a bit fanatical about this stuff. If you know you can do it to other organizations, you probably become paranoid about it happening to you.

No wonder Haley looked like shit in interviews. Non-stop paranoia will wear a man down.

Get real it is legal to tap business owned phones. Has been done for years and has held up in court. Most business' do it.

Oh, agreed. The discussion about blacking out the view of the practice field from office windows had me chuckling. I can't blame them for that in the least, and as you say, it didn't seem to be enough against McDaniels! I don't fault him for stuff like that at all. Plays and communications are similar to proprietary trade secrets in the corporate world.

Re-read the article, then check the legal requirements again.

As I stated earlier, one party MUST be informed that their conversations are being recorded. Businesses that do so inform their employees in writing and 99% of the time require an employee to sign a statement that they have been notified of this fact. It is illegal to monitor conversations without either party being informed.

The article clearly states that Haley thinks his personal cell phone is being monitored. It also states that the Chiefs have denied that they are monitoring phone calls.

Obviously the Chiefs cannot legally record Haley's personal cell phone, and if the Chiefs denied they were recording office phones somebody would have claimed that they signed an ROB acknowledging the fact that their calls were being recorded.

EDIT:
I can see where I might have been unclear in the previous post you quoted. I should have stated explicitly in that post (as I did in follow ups), that it is is illegal to record conversations without at least one party consent. The comments about people "fearing" they were being recorded in the article means that they obviously were not. By law they would have to be informed of that fact. Since they didn't know if they were being recorded, it stands to reason that they were not. Unless you believe the Chiefs were willing to commit federal crimes.

I've been through a change in management where I used to work, and this same thing happened. You adapt to the new regime, or that's not the place for you.

Peterson was one who let the press in on everything. Pioli is not like that. Sounds to me like their digging and making a normal management change sound like a big deal. It was the same thing being said over and over, like they were trying to drive a point home. I lost interest reading halfway through.

Carl Peterson wasn't the transparent guy painted in this article. He was a haggler who screwed up John Tait's presence here, let go of T-Rich, when we could have kept him for a song, and had his share of difficulties with the local press.

I don't miss the 5-Year Plan, I do miss putting up points.

Does this cloak and dagger stuff work in the NFL? As long as employees are notified ahead of time that privacy doesn't exist at Arrowhead, I have no problem with it. (Now, of course, if Haley's mobile phone was hacked.....)

I'm just not sure this is the way to build a dynasty in the NFL. Having a franchise QB in combination with a franchise coach is the only way it is really done anymore.

I do think Pioli seems like a really strange guy, and probably not very likable. I could give a **** if wins though. Thus far, there are two defining events of the Pioli era, and neither of them is has to do with the winning: His fixation with Matt Cassel and his weird estrangement from his head coach, two events that might not be unrelated.

If he delivers a franchise QB, none of this stuff will matter, and Pioli will just be viewed as being an eccentric, driven guy.

I do not know the law, but I know my conversations on the work phone are recorded and I have never signed anything. We all just know it is recorded I guess, but there has never been paper work or an explanation of it. We can hear a beep periodically when we talk. Yes, the conversations have been pulled back up.

Yes, if Tom Brady is the one keeping all the secrets.

It would be hard to believe that those current employees weren't rigorously coached. I don't take much stock in what they have to say.

I could care less, If I tried

So it doesn't bother you that Arrowhead is building a reputation for being a horrible place to work, which could very much limit the quality of the front office and coaching staff working for the team we cheer for?

Yes, you could care less if you tried.

Bob Gretz was paid to run his site by Carl Peterson...
Give that some thought

LMAO

i see a lot of words with almost zero proof of anything at all.

employee turnover after a long tenured GM is gone? No duh.

tension about getting fired after said GM change? No duh.

Pioli is overdoing the micromanaging in his first GM job away from Belichek? no suprise, he's insecure and trying to prove himself.

Haley is a paranoid maniac? no doubt. On a side note Haley has worked with him before. He shouldn't be surprised.

Pioli yelled at someone for parking in his spot? He's sort of a dick ... so?!?

Who is Piolis snitch on CP? I'm sure he has one

I'm sure what they did was within legal bounds, probably a few areas where they stretched that. Sometimes maybe a little too far (e.g. they knew Spygate was wrong years ago, but did it anyway). But yeah, they probably operated with the law in mind.

The problem isn't whether they operated within legal boundaries. The problem is that they've extended their power in ways very few organizations do. This is the first I've ever heard of that kind of abuse of workplace privacy. Most companies will monitor e-mails and internet usage, but only raise an issue if there is a major red flag. They let a lot of things slide.

only problem is that you have no idea/proof that they have done anything

Here is the bottom line for the homers on this board rushing to Fat Scott's defense...

The Chiefs WINS/LOSSES record under Fat Scott is a mediocre 21-28 in 3 seasons, including 0-1 in the playoffs. His first head coaching hire in KC has already been a failure. His biggest addition to the franchise, Cassel, has been a disaster.

Based on the level of accountability Clark is apparently holding everyone else in the franchise to, why does Clark still claim that he believes in Fat Scott?

Answer: Clark is a dickless piece of garbage who doesn't care about winning.

That is the bottom line.

Really can't argue with this.

This story could have been spun in any direction. He's got just as many people saying there's nothing to this as he does people griping about it, but he chose to focus on the negative interviews so that he'd actually have a story. Otherwise, what would he have had other than what it is: people fired, therefore upset, and plenty of others still working and just fine with it. Hmmm...not much of a story there.

Anybody that takes the media's word about this sort of thing and uses it to base important decisions about their own life probably isn't somebody we'd want here in the first place.

Gretz's site went up after Carl was fired, correct

Babb did a very good job of multi-sourcing. It's not like he just asked one person and went at their word. No, we don't have any idea/proof, but you'd have to be nuts to believe that the pattern doesn't suggest that there is some really weird shit going on.

I've read thru all the posts on this OP, good arguments put up by both sides.

In all honesty its probably a little of both. People pissed at getting fired, Pioli is a micromanager.

This.

It sounds like they interviewed the "entitled" employees. Everybody works with entitled employees, and we all know that the piss and moan about everything.

It's the bosses way or the highway. I just wish that Pioli would extend his iron hand to Cassel.

Yeah, let me talk to a bunch of fired employees. That's a wide array of people, isn't it?

Right? F**K all this nonsense give us a football team that wins!!!!! Make me GM I will give you all a qb that can produce and if he couldn't I would fix it, gum wrapper please..... WHO CARES

While you have to balance out the fact that these disgruntled employees are going to be very upset, on the flip side, you don't seriously expect that current employees are going to talk badly about the organization, especially when they're being directly quoted and especially given the allegation that they closely monitor what people are saying, do you?

There is most definitely a story here. It's not just people talking about an organization they hate. They seem to be pointing out very real examples and systematic stuff that are complete head-scratchers. It's the systematic stuff that worries me most, because those aren't isolated incidents.

cause he makes him mad money

This.


The fans are angry, hence mad money.

He spoke with fired employees and current employees and gave every single person from the top-down, it appears, a chance to represent their side of the story. Mark Donovan, one side of the story, had a ton of opportunity to fairly defend himself. Pioli chose not to, and I personally think that is laughable.

I thought it was a very well sourced story.

He interviewed just as many that said this was nothing. He just chose not to focus on those guys.

Some of you may follow UFC. Whether you do or not, there's an interesting thing going on there right now that is on the same subject here.

To keep it short, ESPN wrote an article trashing the UFC for underpaying their fighters. They did an interview with the 1 fighter they could find that wanted to trash the UFC, and they also did an interview with Lorenzo Fertitta, one of the owners of the UFC, and they're using that interview, edited to their own liking, to prove some of their points.

Dana White, the president of the UFC, is pissed about it, and has stated that he's going to use the same exact interview footage (since they had their cameras there, too) to create an edited version of the same video to make it look like the UFC is doing everything great and fighters couldn't be happier. Then he's going to show the entire, unedited interview, to show just exactly how easy it is to spin details and create stories.

I think it's going to be interesting.

Another example...I worked for a small business a few years ago that got raided by the FBI because they thought the company was selling counterfeit product. News crews were there and it was the first time I'd had a first hand experience with the media. They interviewed me and other employees, but we didn't have much to give them because there really wasn't much of a story.

Then I watched the news that night and they completely spun everything we had said in a direction that could not have been more incorrect. EVERYTHING they said on the news about the situation was completely wrong. It was shocking to me how badly they presented the information.

If you don't trust Pioli, fine. I don't like Cassel either. But to trust the media and base your own thoughts and decisions on them is just...well...let's say you'll be leading a very blissful life.

Regardless of how much of this article is true, it still paints a bad picture of Pioli and the organization as a whole. When you are trying to recruit coaches, this is not something you want out there. Pioli is slowing painting himself into a corner, one that he likely won't get out of. The best thing he could do to slow the mounting pressure from fans and media is get another QB! Otherwise, I dont see this ending well for him unless Clark is blind to the obvious...which is definitely a possibility.

Nobody he talked to had ANY proof at all.

This article might as well have been called 'Arrowhead Watercooler talk'

only the electronic surveillance rumor means anything at all and it's completely unproven.

IF ... Haley really thought his cellphone had been tapped it would of been pretty easy to go somewhere and have it checked. I imagine even a tech at a local phone shop could open it up and check it to see if a component had been added to the inside. Hell, he could just keep the sim chip and exchange the phone to a different model if he was that concerned.

If Haley thought it was actually his phone # line was really tapped then i'm sure the FBI would just love to know about a company making illegal wire taps on their own.

You honestly think the chiefs are going to risk going to federal prison just to hear what that moron Todd Haley has to say to his wife?

THe part that should bother fans, IMO
Is that they may isolate themselves from outside thinking
inbreeding minds have extra limbs

Haha, indeed.

This wasn't an expose. I've worked with PR departments very closely before and have seen them before. In those situations, we had our PR group reach out to the media guy and they refused to talk to us. This, on the other hand, was a thoughtful piece and Mark Donovan had a ton of air time and a chance to address almost every allegation. And Babb also included former employees (that he was actually allowed to interview) and even people from departments like HR. Don't paint this as some kind of one-sided puff piece.

The reason why the story is weighted more heavily toward the negative is because Scott Pioli chose not to speak to Babb. Anyone who's been in PR knows that "no comment" is about the worst thing you can do if you're trying to save face. The problem is, I think Pioli is way too egotistical to understand PR. He's under the mentality that I have one way of doing things and if you don't like it, **** you.

There is way too much negative press around Pioli and this regime since he was hired. First it was Whitlock, then last year we had the whole blowup with the Weis/Haley divorce (and Pioli had a huge hand in that, because he forced Weis on Haley), and now Babb drops this bomb.

You can say "hey, it's because the media is so mad!!!" but they trashed the hell out of Carl Peterson and there was tons of access during his twilight years. They gave Athan practically unfettered access to Herm Edwards.

Too much negativity for my tastes. The franchise has major issues that appear to present a terrible working environment.

That's why I said 99%. Most companies require you to sign an acknowledgement to protect themselves legally so an employee can't come back and claim they were never informed.

The accusations that the organization doesn't care about winning, only making money have been floated for years. They don't make sense. They were wrong when people were saying it about Peterson, and they're wrong now. If you believe Pioli has a huge ego, then you'd have to believe he wants to win more than anything else. Nothing would feed his ego more than winning a super bowl and rubbing it Belichicks face that he can do it on his own.

The reason is screwed up, but the desire is just as strong as wanting it for the fans, or anything else.

link?

What, you think Haley hired Weis?

I guarantee you somebody in the media could have taken all of the exact same information and turned it into a story about how great Pioli is and how we good of a job he's done turning this organization around if they wanted to.

They go to school for it, and they learn a lot more about how to do it once they've got a job in the field. They're very good at spinning details one way or another. It happens every day on any media outlet you ever watch, read, or listen to.

Babb is just stirring up shit because he doesn't like Pioli (probably because he won't do interviews with him), and he's done a great job of it.

This!

Agreed. Dismissing the the complaints from previous employees, it's still obvious that Pioli is a serious micro-manager. This is great when you have staff that need to be directed in everything they do, but most competent folks who are good in their fields don't like to work for people like this.

Then again, this may be mostly on the operations side and he may treat the football side completely differently.

So while our GM is worried about candy wrappers and the price of coffee, this franchise has won 21 games in 3 years. Blinds closed, phones tapped - how about focusing on things that impact what happens between the white lines on Sundays? And we thought Peterson had a huge ego...

just wanting to know where the proof is that Pioli forced anyone on Haley.

If Pioli was forcing Haley then why did he let Haley do something stupid like fire Gailey 2 weeks before the season started? If he didn't force Haley not to do that stupid shit then why would he force a OC on Haley at all?

If Pioli was forcing Haley then how in the hell did Muir end up as OC? That sure as hell wasn't a Pioli idea.

Bunch of made-up bullshit floating around here when in reality we have no idea what's true.

Haley isn't a victim ... he screwed up his own bed and had to sleep in it.

THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

REP FOR YOU PAL!!!!

Wow, so we should throw out any case where there is strong eyewitness testimony? You know... because we're relying on people's word. Again, you don't look at these as facts. You look at them as patterns. And there is a lot of both in this article and everything we already know.

I don't think anyone really believes Haley's cell phone was tampered with. The problem was that the organization drove him to that level of paranoia. I imagine that paranoia stemmed from him wondering how private information became discovered. What's the pattern? We know that the Chiefs were so invasive of his private life that they were calling in radio shows leaking out that Haley was going to a Lil Wayne concert and having pizza with his family. We saw multiple sources claiming that office phone, e-mail, and internet records were not just monitored, but heavily monitored. We heard a story about Denny Thum having months of phone records scrutinized. We know that Pioli has invaded people's privacy in the past. The pattern suggests that this paranoia is very real, that their communications within Arrowhead are not only heavily monitored, but acted upon. And by the way, he's the one who built the culture around Spygate--you don't think that is a pretty damning piece of evidence that this organization might go beyond the lengths of what is ethical to invade associates' privacy? Again, there is a lot of legal area for companies to invade your privacy by monitoring communications. But this is the first I've heard of a company building a system around stretching every boundary they can.

What patterns do we see of a systematic problem? We heard a story that lots of people are denied access to certain floors (I doubt that's made up). We've heard a heavy pattern of stories in this article and multiple others that seem to show that Pioli most definitely has a big ego (the courier van, the temperature of his office, calling him by his first name--that's not details, that's just pettiness). The claim that the Chiefs all draw their shades down is very real... you can have an opinion, if you choose, as to whether that's good or bad. Same with the gum wrapper--that was very real. The fact that co-workers from different departments have to go to great lengths to hide the fact that they're going to lunch together... that appears to be true too.

And, again... I can guarantee that the age discrimination is only going to make this whole thing worse.

Simple, he's on trash detail in the stairwells. Perhaps his blinds are closed too. More likely, he just stupid too. Unlike NE, he doesn't have BB to run the players... He may have been an ass there too, but he had a coach who was better at his job than Pioli was at being an ass, so he just let him be.

Oh, give me a break. On most accusations there is a counter-quote from a current Associate who defends the practice. And in most cases, the Associate basically confirms that the story is true, and then spins it in a positive light. Of course the piece is skewed toward the negative, but to suggest that this is a biased piece of journalism is a huge discredit to the piece. That is absolute baloney to say he's "stirring up shit." This is a very well, mostly balanced piece. Give it more credit than that.

Most media outlets try to sensationalize pieces by offering one story, misrepresenting quotes, or by offering a ton about the cons and less about the pros. Babb did none of that. He has direct quotes. He pulled from supposedly 2 dozen "disgruntled" sources, 8 current associates (that appears to be Pioli's doing and, by the way, Pioli was given a fair chance to respond). There are no baseless accusations--every accusation appeared to have been posed to Donovan and the HR person, etc... and addressed. And the pros vs. cons is somewhere around 60%/40%, which is pretty well balanced for a journalist piece.

I think the fact that you're trying to discredit the piece goes to show your bias toward the organization, more than anything.

It's built into every PBX in the world. So it's simple. As for being legal, yes it is. It's an HR issue, and read the fine print, they can do it. The only time you have to announce third party participation is in lieu of policy and being informed. So, post HR notification, any and all internal calls can be monitored unannounced for quality reasons. Much like email, it's been litigated to death... Now if you didn't tell them, or you monitor a non-corporate asset, you have issues. Maybe they're that dumb, but I doubt it.

Hate to break it to you, but this is how the large corporations of now operate. Clark Hunt was schooled by Goldman Sachs.

Decades of loyalty earning employees near-impunity with middling results is Lamar Hunt's generation. Not Clark's.

We all wanted things to change when Peterson was the GM.

Clean house, change the environment, bring in new blood we all wanted.

Now it has happened and we all bitch. Pioli is taking it over the edge to far of course, but this franchise needed a good cleansing. 40 plus years of mediocrity really stains things.

I think it's bullshit going to the extent that they are about stupid shit, when they should be more focused on putting a winning product on the field. I think they have done a good job building up that product and keeping good young talent around, they are just a few pieces away.

We on Cp tend to be overly critical and demanding. Which is why I love this place so much. I consider most on here to be some of the most die hard Chiefs fans. However some times I think we don't really look at the whole picture objectively.

I could care less how the things are run at Arrowhead if they put a championship product on the field. I think if we get the three superstars back from injury next year we are close to doing that.

IMO we are a few pieces away from being legit contenders. This article could be the piece that makes those incharge realize that it's time to be bold.

Sorry for the rambling, just my .02 cents.

Good post.

I've never worked any place where the employer supplied coffee. Every office I've worked in had a coffee club where employees got together and bought coffee and everything needed to make it. Pioli being worried about the cost of coffee amazes me because they buy the coffee, not because he thinks they spend too much on it.

If this is all Clark's MO, Pioli should be fired before long.

Fully agree. And I think in the end, most of this is for the better. Details and accountability are a good thing.

The problem becomes... if this continues and that this mass paranoia is true, then we're going to lose a lot of good people and really struggle to bring good people in. And talent is everything.

Oh yeah, and that's the way it should be. Accountability. Focus on your job, and do it well. If Pioli doesn't deliver results, you get rid of him.

I keep hearing people out there say stuff like "Lamar would be rolling over in his grave." Well after years of Peterson and before that Jack Steadman, I could care less...

Which was exactly my point. Employees "suspected" and "feared" they were being monitored. The Chiefs "denied" that they were recording phone calls.

Now, do you really think there were "bugs" in the hallways and conference rooms and that the team monitored phone conversations?

Very much so.

I think some of this is disgruntled ex workers and some of it is probably true.

Like you, I think the best thing about this is that there is gonna be alot of questions asked and accountability.

It could be possible that in 2 years we look back and laugh at this as we are preparing to play in teh AFC CHampionship. Or looking for a new GM.

I don't know who said it earlier in this thread, but basically Clark Hunt has structured this organization to abide by the rules and restrictions of a Fortune 500 company.

I do not work for a Fortune 500 company, but I work for a company that is in the same field as many of the companies that are.

It's highly routine for employees to be disciplined or spoken with about Facebook posts and texting former employees. The entire workplace has security cameras, and management routinely reviews the cameras and irregularly disciplines employees for not doing their jobs if/when they believe that's the case. Inane disciplines like the candy wrapper happen, for good reason (and sometimes not-so-good). Everybody below a certain rung of power is completely kept in the dark. Any instances where a superior gets wind of someone below them shopping around for new jobs is met with a face-to-face meeting with that employee. Most forms of discipline occur with a reminder that your job is not etched in stone, but written in sand if you continue your current practices. Pervasive fear of getting fired is common.

Etc.

It sounds restrictive, and it is. But there are some good reasons for the company to operate that way (for instance, the Chiefs is probably spy-proof). Some of the reasons are just paranoia and power-tripping, which is of course the nature of the game.

I believe every word of the article.

The truth is, we want our good ol' Kansas City Chiefs to be run like a mom-and-pop store. In some ways, like PR and employee satisfaction, that's certainly preferable. But the way the Chiefs run their show now is similar to a lot of large corporations who do this routinely for competitive advantage.

Combine Clark's management style with Pioli's Patriot Way and this is what you get. It's logical that there's going to be a shit ton of turnover and people put in really shitty situations because for decades, the Chiefs were run completely differently.

I'm not excusing it, just explaining it.

You can conduct your business like a business while still having respect for people.

Spot on, Direckshun.

That's a direct quote that would lead one to believe you agree with my opinion on this whole thing. See how easy that was?

You also can't preach accountability to the ticket office manager, but then give the quarterback a constant pass because of one good stretch he had in 2010 against inferior opponents.

If this was consistent, and heads rolled for poor performance on the field, I'd be behind this.

It doesn't happen that way with this team, at all.

Bullshit.

I think I can speak for most when I say that we want the team run to where what happens between the lines on gameday matters most.

Not the price of ****ing coffee, or stray candy wrappers or making the media get a pass to piss or making employees draw their blinds.

NONE of that shit has any effect on gameday. This regime's priorities are severely out of whack.

21 wins in 3 years. But goddamn it, we're drinking cheap coffee and picking up after ourselves.

Meh.

Pioli had a shit first year, but because the institution has invested more resources in you when you're at his level, he gets more than a year anyway.

We went 4-12 with a bad coaching hire and a bad QB hire.

Even with those two things acting as anchors, we go 10-6 the next year and make the playoffs.

Even with those two things as anchors, we go 7-9 against a much tougher schedule with our offensive and defensive MVPs missing the whole season.

This team is getting better. The coaching mistake has now been righted, the QB mistake probably only has one more year, and Pioli has been firing on all cylanders the past couple years.

The team is getting to where it needs to. And aside from Cassel, this team hasn't really had any realistic opportunities as franchise QBs during Pioli's tenure. Sanchez and Clausen, two QBs I would've made a move for, aren't exactly the world beaters you need at the position.

2013 is a great QB class, I have a feeling we'll get our next guy there.

You are adorable.

This.

Man there are some great points being made in this thread by lots of people.

And FTR, I think they are consistent with most players on poor performance, save for 1 spot.

Look at previous years. They seen safety as a weakness, went out and made that a strength. Same with wr, not I bet we see it with oline and NT this offseason.

There is however one spot that isn't looked at in the same light.

I agree. There's a lot not to like.

I'm just trying to explain the phenomenon here.

Throwing little fits over wrappers and AC/heater levels doesn't mean he's not committed to winning. It just means he's committed to winning while being a micromanaging control freak.

Which, by the way, is enabled and encouraged by Clark. To pretend Pioli is acting rogue here is assinine.