Yes, murders and rapes just get swept under the rug and treated like recruiting violations.

Holy ****.

For Paterno curley and Schwartz yes. For mcqueary there are repercussions. Should still rise above those repercussions, but again, an easy decision made more difficult hecause authorities didn't do their job.

But, but, but it was his dream job. < /jackasszilla

If you follow the thread I am saying tthere are a ton of factors with career being oonly one aspect. Its not even close to the same example. I still push for the example of a private going over the generals head to leak info about a colonel's misconduct.

Aw yeah, I forgot the "unwritten rules". Well John Travolta thinks my example is pretty ****ing apropos.

Joe Paterno isn't a general. He's well known person who made his living in a trivial form of entertainment.

THANK YOU

the ACTUAL AUTHORITIES were never notified.

Graham spanier, psu president
Curley, head of psu police

push whatever you want, you would probably feel differently if you had a child that sandusky could have been pushing something on...

You say that like it's supposed to mean something. This isn't the East German Stasi.

if they dont do anything mcqueary has the RESPONSIBILITY to call the ACTUAL cops.

actually IMO that's what ANY sane person does immediately. you dont tell your superiors you call actual policemen

What a ****ing terrible drawing.

Yeah, people were tricking Sandusky into raping boys so he'd go into prison.

It does mean something. The guy who oversees the psu police didn't act on it and in fact tried to cover it up. And yes, psu police has the enforcement power of real cops. These weren't mall cops.

In 1998 a similar sandusky investigation occurred. local police and the DA didn't act on it.

So again, your boss, his boss, the university president, the head of police, local police... They all know this is happening. You tell them and nothing happens. The only option is to go above and beyond and fight the system against heavy hitters with a ton of influence. He should have fought the system. But again lets not pretend its easy.

Most of the right people knew. There were people in a position of power that were purposely covering this up.

did they have an eyewitness in 1998?

if mcquery had told an actual COP, that investigation would have likely gone differently

Um, Bryan, I don't think you are interpreting this cartoon correctly.
Interesting.
Maybe this cartoon is like an ink blot test.
"Tell me, what do you see?"

Other editorial cartoons about Sandusky:
http://www.cagle.com/news/sandusky-trial/

People like you are what is wrong with the world today.

If you say so. I think my view is everything that's right with the world. The military had 19,000 reported cases of rape. Many of those cases were covered up or not taken seriously. There are other cases of military ranking officials using pressure of repercussions to encourage subordinates not to blow the whistle. Since then, there have been whistle blowing protection laws. Again, the military consists of good people, not cowards, but they sometimes feel pressure to not speak up when they should report something.

Companies are installing anonymous whistle blowing tip lines. And they are protecting whistleblowers from repercussions.

This stuff can't happen in the NCAA. They have such ridiculous rules and regulations that big programs have created a culture of secrecy and keeping things under wraps. And you don't create that secrecy unless the higher-ups make it clear that there are repercussions for speaking up. We are seeing that in Pioli's organization -- nothing ever leaks out of that organization and you can bet every single Chiefs' employee knows never to open their mouth. In this kind of a secretive organization, you should have the expectation that when you present a problem to authorities, they'll do something about it. You expect when the head of police knows about it, that the police will conduct an investigation to look into it. None of those things happened. I start from the top-down. By far, the most culpable people in this whole mess are the authorities who had the power to do something and had no repercussions for speaking up, and instead not only ignored it, but covered it up. McQueary never covered up anything. He just didn't act as proactively as he should have.

No, I'd say that , considering he CAN NOT STOP talking about whistleblowers over rape victims, he's emotionally involved on a deeper level.

..and it ain't pretty.

JFC. we are talking about a university, not the mother ****ing military.

At that level you just call the actual police. Immediately.

And if you feel the way you are talking in this thread you ARE ABSOLUTELY NOT WHAT'S RIGHT ABOUT THIS WORLD
Posted via Mobile Device

And mcqueary absolutely WAS involved in the cover up. He saw what was happening and allowed people that were invested in NOT letting it get out make it go away for a time.

That's allowing the cover up. He could have blown the whole thing wide open.
Posted via Mobile Device

Hello? Did zilla miss this post?

Doubtful but I didn't think he would respond. the answer doesn't fit whatever ****ed up agenda he has.
Posted via Mobile Device

are you talking about the head of the UNIVERSITY POLICE knowing about it?

I'm talking about the real police. And I know you think they are but they are paid by the university. surely they are unbiased?
Posted via Mobile Device

Wait ... Theres seriously someone defending a person not reporting child rape to the police?


What in the ****?

It doesn't matter if McQueary was worried about hi job or not. It wouldn't even matter if Sandusky was McQueary's relative and had just donated his kidney, lung and liver to McQueary. There's no ****ing excuse for not going to proper authorities. Its sad that zilla thinks there is.

Its a child being raped. No excuse.
Posted via Mobile Device

The military is about as close of an example as you'll find. But you applauded the Steven Spielberg example, which was about one of the worst examples you can find. But I'm the one pushing an agenda....

The closest example you can come up with is one that's 180 degrees different. Riiight. They execute people in the military. They have their own law, their own court system. This is a college.

They are close examples because teams are built like armies. There is a peer pressure to never, ever go above your coach and put yourself above your team. There is a ranking system where head coaches call all the shots, and everyone has to fall in line. And because of those things, there is tremendous potential for abuse.

I have said over and over again, while everybody is pointing fingers at the witness, I am absolutely horrified at the abuse of power that high ranking officials at Penn State were actively covering this up. Like I said, you do NOT keep secrets this big for that long unless every person underneath you knows there are clear consequences for opening your mouth. When the people up top create that kind of system of fear and secrecy, you make it something as easy as "doing the right thing" a lot more difficult.

You keep lowering the bar for yourself. Well done.

I have studied organizational behavior and psychology. I know a thing or two about how people make poor judgments when under duress. I know a thing or two about unethical organizations and how good people are sucked into doing really bad things and are afraid to do anything about it.

The fact that everyone from moral Joe Pa all the way up to the President of PSU actively covered this shit up, even lying on the grand jury stand, that tells me everything I need to know. Everyone from the President down to the Athletic Director to the Coach was aligned to this ****ed up idea that it's better to protect the Penn State brand at all costs, even if that means letting a child rapist walk the streets.

I absolutely blame the shit out of the PSU President, JoePa, the PSU VP, and the AD who created a system and a culture where protecting this monster was considered to be okay and in fact in the school's best interests. I am a lot less inclined to blame a person who gets caught up in that crooked system.

LMAO Dear god.

Yeah, teams are built like armies, except for the total freedom college athletes have to do whatever they want, if they screw up their teammates aren't going to die in a hail of bullets, they won't be sent to Leavenworth for disobeying orders, and they can quit whenever they want. But other than that, it's exactly the same.

ya, bet those raped boys never, ever felt like this.

Oh, you mean like every other company in the world? The CEO calls all the shots and everyone falls in line.

What you don't have is the slightest bit of evidence that such a description applies to Mike McQueary. But no matter how many times this is brought to your attention, you dismiss it and continue to insist that your interpretation is correct.

Out of perverse curiosity, I have to ask: why is that?

If I didn't know any better I'd think Chiefzilla was trolling. Who the hell defends someone who turned a blind eye on CHILD RAPE?

Because you don't have evidence either, except for an interpretation of a rehearsed testimony. The defense came out and called him a liar based on his grand jury account. He's not going to go on the stand as some emotional witness who didn't get his facts straight.

It was stated by other people (not just McQueary) that McQueary was visibly upset whenever Sandusky showed up anywhere. Probably one of the few people that was, sadly. But more importantly, there is evidence all around us that high level administrators were covering this up like crazy. Fair speculation as to whether political power was used to sweep these incidents under the rug. More than fair question to ask... if this was a secret for 10 years and everyone knew about it, how does that happen? To me, nothing stays that secret unless everyone knows perfectly well that you do not open your mouth and yap.

You can draw your own conclusions. Me? I think it was pretty clear that a big time program like that doesn't survive if they aren't very, very good at keeping secrets and making damn sure employees keep their mouths shut.

NOTHING KEPT HIM FROM GOING TO THE POLICE!

Wtf part of that don't you understand?

Because I am a TON more angry at the scumbag administrators who covered it up, who had the POWER to do something and didn't, and created a culture that made it okay to sweep these kinds of atrocious acts under the rug.

And I have studied enough unethical organizations to know that the blame always, always starts from the top. It's their fault for creating a system and culture where this is considered okay.

This in no way answers my question.

To repeat: there is, and has never been, the slighest bit of evidence to suggest that Mike McQueary wanted to come forward more than he did, but was scared to do it. Yet you INSIST that's what happened.

Why?

OK, let us take this point and delve a little deeper into it for a moment. McQueary didn't even like being around Sandusky. Why in God's most precious name did he continue to be employed at a place where he was constantly around? Why did he continue to be employed at a place where the superiors where actively covering these atrocities up? If it bothered him so much, why did he continue to stick around? At the very least, if he was indeed fearful for his job and family as you suggest, move away and then blow the whistle. But no, he did not that. He continued to stay in that den of evil. Which takes me back to my point I made earlier in the thread: he was less concerned with himself and more concerned about PSU, JUST LIKE HIS SUPERIORS. He was a member of the same sick cult that was running the show. Period. End of story.

Every last one those motherfuckers need to burn. Up to and including McQueary.

This isn't some company covering up unethical financial dealings. This is an institution of higher learning covering up kiddie rape. If McQueary couldn't draw that distinction well, he is most certainly fucked in the head.

You still haven't answered what stopped McQueary from doing something? He's apart of that cover up also. If you're not telling the cops and proper authorities, you're covering it up also. He had power to do something about it. He didn't. He's a ****ing pussy.

And shut the **** up. Anyone that knew about this and didn't do anything about it is to blame. It doesn't matter if they're the University president, or the towel boy. McQueary knew about it and let it happen for years. He's a piece of shit no matter what the Penn State culture was/is.

Because making that statement doesn't just implicate Penn State, it completely drowns them. He clearly loves Penn State. What is his incentive for saying they intimidated him to keep quiet? That makes Penn State look really bad. His not saying it doesn't mean it isn't true.

He has expressed regret for how he acted in the locker room that night, so I disagree that he never indicated he wishes he had done more. As for intimidation... you do the math. This thing stayed secret for 10 years. That doesn't happen unless people know there are consequences for tattling. The administrators were very active in covering this up, which means they probably took other steps to make sure bad info didn't leak out.

You can draw your own conclusions. We don't know if McQueary was intimidated and we never will. What we do know is that based on the behavior of Spaniers, Joe Pa, and Curley, there is more than an educated guess that they built an environment that did not encourage whistle blowing.

I've answered the question all thread long. Because he is a whistle blower in a culture that covers shit up and almost certainly has a clear way of making sure people keep their mouth shut to make sure their tracks stay covered. Because turning in a high ranking boss is a much harder job than people claim it is on the sidelines. Because whistle blowing situations happen very frequently, and most people make bad situations when in those situations.

People would forgive him for telling the cops about CHILD RAPE!


And even if he got fired for it, he could sue Penn State for wrongful termination. And could you imagine the field day the media would have if Penn State actually did fire him for turning a CHILD RAPIST?

Sorry, you are full of bullshit. NOTHING bad would have happened if he turned in the child rapist. Hell, he'd be thought of as a hero.

Seriously, what bad thing could have happened to him if he had done what any other rational person in the world would have done and told proper authorities?

I'm not asking you to explain anything McQueary has said or done. I'm asking you to explain why YOU are so remarkably insistent that "McQueary wanted to do more, but he was too intimidated to come forward" is what happened in this situation.

You just said McQueary loves Penn State. Isn't it possible that he wasn't scared about coming forward at all, and he purposely chose not to tell someone outside the university in order to protect his beloved alma mater from a terrible scandal?

Yes. Of course that's possible. There are other possibilities as well. What you're saying about intimidation is possible.

But there is only one person here who is taking one of the possible explanations and clinging to it like grim death. There is only one person here who keeps saying the same thing over and over, making comparisions one more awful than the next, while refusing to let the matter drop.

There is only one person here who keeps pounding the drum of "HE WAS SCARED SO DON'T BE TOO MEAN TO HIM", despite having absolutely nothing to back that up with, and despite the growing number of posters who are piling on to call him a moron.

That person is you. And it is like a car wreck I can't look away from.

On the odd chance this has not been said. Toss the old bastard in the wood chipper

Is there a possibility he doesn't care? Of course there is.

But in terms of his motivations... yes, he was angry at Sandusky. There are multiple accounts that McQueary was angry whenever Sandusky showed up on the facilities. It's almost amazing that he was the only person angry about it. McQueary told several people and authority figures the full, detailed story (evidence proves he was detailed about the story he told). And on the stand, even though he had lots of chances to protect himself, the school, and Sandusky, he instead chose a damning, true account of exactly what happened. I think it's pretty clear that this is a guy angry at Sandusky and clearly wanting to get the true story out.

So why didn't he?

There is clear evidence that Penn State was covering this up. You don't think shutting up the witness was part of the cover up? There are a ton of outside examples of this exact same behavior happening in other organizations -- authority figures who build a culture that makes it difficult for whistle blowers to step up.

So you have an angry guy who wants to tell the truth and demonstrated that several times. And you have clear abuse of power and clear motivation to cover up from the guys up top. You don't think that's enough evidence to suggest that there's a very high likelihood that McQueary was forced to participate in a cover-up even though he really wanted to tell the truth?

Sports fans are NOT rational. Sadly. I couldn't believe how many nut jobs rioted for JoePa, not realizing how stupid they looked. I can't believe there were people sending death threats to McQueary because he had the audacity to "say too much." If McQueary went to the cops and it led to Sandusky's firing before fans were ready to digest it? If it happened in midseason? If it led to a bowl suspension, the death sentence, etc...? YOu have to keep in mind that Penn State fans are not just any average fan base. This is a school and enormous alumni base that bleeds blue and white.

This is why I keep chiming in on this thread. Because you can't project what you would do in a situation you were never in. But yet, we act so convinced that it's so simple to just turn a ranking boss in. I'm telling you that there is a mountain of evidence that this stuff (while not typically at this extreme level of disgusting behavior) happens all of the time and employees CONSISTENTLY refuse to turn the authority figure in. There is a psychological explanation for why they don't and it's not because they are bad people. If it's so easy, whistle blowing would happen all the time. But it doesn't. So while you claim the reaction was easy, we see the majority of people when put in that situation whiff. And that is backed not by a personal opinion. That is backed by a mountain of evidence.

And that is what sets this apart from all of your studies. Once again we are not talking corporate fraud. We are talking about the raping of young boys. It is very easy for most of us to say how we would respond in that situation because it is human nature to respond quickly, with determination and possibly (hopefully) even violently to such an atrocious action. That's right, in this case human nature is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you claim it to be. Look at what will happen to Sandusky if he is placed in general population; even the most hardened criminals, the meanest big baddest boys in prison know you do not fuck with kids. If these animals are capable of that moral standard, how much more so should McQueary be capable of it?

Scared? Go to the state police, or even the FBI and ask for protection. There were options readily available to him and he CHOSE NOT TO take advantage of them. Your theory is flawed from the ground up. And the more you push it the more pathetic you look.

That's a fargonclusion << see what I did there

ROFL I was thinking the same thing

Bottom line is this...as a society we cannot tolerate this kind of behavior from anyone. Even from our co-workers, husbands, wives, etc. Our children are one of our prized resources...just like water, air, and fuel. We need to protect them from things like this. Every one of us.

http://media.caglecartoons.com/media...113482_600.jpg

I think this one would have been better suited if the rug didn't have the words "Sandusky Scandal" on it. I mean...everyone gets that already. Maybe I'm just being picky.

so the chant "Hey Teacher, Leave those Kids ALONE" is what he gets serenaded with

That and a bunch of men with over-sized penises doing the helicopter to the helicopter part of the song (at the end of "Another Brick in the Wall Part 1").

i cant believe some things that zilla has said in this thread.

i think i'll just stay out of it from now on, can't stand dealing with idiots much anymore

I guess there are more people out there than we thought that would rationalize something like this. It's a shame.

It is not just corporations. It is an explanation for how good people got caught up in mass atrocities like the Holocaust (no, I am not making this up. There are psychological studies that back this). It is an explanation for why the military has a huge issue with good soldiers not reporting rapes or murders. And there are plenty of psychological studies that show that people will willingly inflict harm on other people if pressured by authorities to do so. There is a MOUNTAIN of data that people will not whistle blow on acts ranging from fraud to murder if they are afraid of authorities. There is a mountain of data that suggests that whistle blowers incur an extreme amount of stress, even when they do the right thing.

So yeah, we can all go ahead with our opinions on things we've never had to experience. Look, I don't blame anyone. I would like to think that all of us would react in the right way. And I wish McQueary pulled the guy out of the room and beat the living shit out of him. But study after study shows that people typically do NOT react this way in a high stress situation with a clear, powerful authority figure present.

last post in this thread:

THERE IS NO "GOOD" PERSON TAKING PART IN COVERING UP RAPES, MURDERS, OR MASS ATROCITIES.

**** YOUR PSYCHOLOGICAL STUDIES. TAKE THEM AND SHOVE THEM UP YOUR ASS, THOSE "GOOD PEOPLE" PLAYED THAT STUDY LIKE A FIDDLE.

No, there are people looking for solutions to the problem instead of blaming every single person involved. The biggest problem and it absolutely needs to be fixed is that the guys in power at Penn State have to be taken to task for creating a culture of cover-up. And they HAVE to create a better procedure toward encouraging whistle blowers to step up and report to the right authorities without fear of repercussion. But that will NEVER happen as long as NCAA programs are built off a culture of secrecy and a few political powers calling all the shots. And it certainly won't happen if we focus all our attention on grilling McQueary when by a MILE the biggest culprits are the scumbags from Paterno all the way up. Nobody's even talking about these guys.

It's the equivalent of the first responder to a fire not pulling the fire alarm because he's afraid it might hurt his career. You aren't worthy of further discussion on this.

That is a ridiculously idiotic example.

As if the world we live in is not twisted enough, you have to go and concoct one in your mind that is even more twisted.

As I said, he chose NOT to seek protection that was readily available to him. But of course, you didn't care to tackle that aspect of the argument. You just keep spewing the same senseless mantra over and over like a broken record. I would recommend seeking professional help but, it sounds like that is the factor behind your "reasoning". So I guess I will suggest staying away from those types all together instead.

We are not talking about covering it up. I've said those guys are complete scumbags. I'm talking about a system that makes it very difficult for whistle blowers to report it to the proper authorities. That is a ton different from intentionally sweeping something under the rug, even though you have authority to do something without repercussion.

To your second point... good, so we established that your opinion as an observer is more important than factual data. Glad we established that.

Whistle blower protections have always been available. That doesn't mean it's not a big problem. Just because it's there doesn't mean people aren't afraid to blow the whistle.

The focus should be on the abuse of power. More than anything. In this entire conversation, I keep hearing that McQueary was the guy in the best position to do something. Bull ****ing shit. Paterno, Schultz, Curley, Spanier are by a mile the biggest culprits in this mess and they should burn for it.

That is because there are not any warped individuals taking up for them the way you are for McQueary. Everyone agrees the others should burn. Sadly, not everyone agrees that McQ is a part of that group.

He was. He was the one who actually caught the motherfucker in the act! What beeter fucking position could you ask for? He could have physically destroyed the man on the spot and then further destroyed him as an eye witness. IT DOES NOT GET ANY BETTER THAN THAT YOU MORON! JFC

As I am reading this thread, and the back and forth between Zilla and others, I keep wondering What IF McQuery did call the REAL cops? Would they go after Sandusky or would they also cover up the incident to protect their beloved Penn State? I mean look at the Pittsburgh cops after they were called in to investigate Rothlisberger when he raped that woman. They covered that shit up bigtime to protect their beloved football team and beloved QB. Just a question that keeps running theough my head. What if they would of covered it up too?? maybe that scumbag would of never been caught...I dont know, but the mere thought that the REAL police could of covered it up too is terrible.

Having said that, I KNOW FOR A FACT THAT I WOULD OF STOPPED IT AND CALLED THE POLICE. I've been in that position where I saw a child being abused, not sexually, and I ****ing called the police. Damn the consequences, although my life wouldnt of been threatened or anything. But I do know for a fact, thats its in my DNA not to freeze or keep it quiet very long, if at all.

Yes to point 1. There is evidence that there was massive cover-up and I'm sure it extended well beyond the walls of PSU.

And I understand where you're coming from on point 2, but also recognize that when you're dealing with someone you know in a position of rank authority, the game changes significantly. I would like to believe I'd stop it. But again, there is a mountain of evidence that says a lot of people will not do the right thing and it's largely out of fear of repercussions, even if the repercussions are slim. The key fix is anonymous whistle blower lines and protections. But people on this thread don't want to hear that.

That's why you call ESPN after you call the police.

Heavy irony.......

Yeah, I dont disagree with you at all. I would of done whatever it took. I can say that, cuz I have in the past, but to think that football programs are more important than people, children is just sad.

Bingo. And hell, the FBI if you are being stymied is a legit option. McQ may not have had any "anonymous hot lines" :rolleyes:, but he had access to plenty of other real resources.

HE should have beat the dog shit out of Sandusky followed by taking the kid to the police.

Ok, I've said my piece on this.

Look, I think what happened was disgusting. I had a ton of respect for Joe Pa, but now think he's one of the vilest human beings in sports history for his handling of this whole thing. I think the administrators should burn for this.

But I can't stress enough that you can try all you want to project what you would do in the scenario. It's not the same until you are put in that scenario. Ask any psychologist or organizational behavior specialist and you'll see that there is an overwhelming amount of data that says that whistle blowers who feel pressured to keep their mouth shut undergo a ton of stress that makes it very difficult to report bad behavior. And there are tons of examples in history of this fear of authority driving people to do bad things or to cover up bad things, and it's all driven by fear, even if the fear is irrational and the repercussions are small. I'm going off of rational data here. Others here are making conclusions based on emotion. I get that, but don't tell me the data and research are irrelevant just because you have a non fact-based opinion that you disagree.

The decision isn't easy. It's a high-stress scenario with very real repercussions, especially when you have far too powerful people in positions of power actively trying to cover the matter up. Very potentially threatening McQueary to keep his mouth shut. Very possibly influencing other levels of legal and political authority to keep it under wraps as well. This isn't some small business here. This is an enormously politically charged state university with a football program that has an enormous network of alumni and boosters. This is a rabid fan base that will harass the living hell out of anyone who dares tattle on the program and *gasp* ruins the chance at a winning season.

I'm not saying what McQueary did was right. I'm saying that easy decisions were made difficult because there was an enormous abuse of power by authorities to not do the right things and to create roadblocks to doing the right thing.

I must add; if there is reason to fear that fan base in this matter, if they are truly more concerned with PSU's image and football program than with protecting children, they should be lined up and shot along with all the others.

My God, how we have grown weak as a people. America was born not out of fear of the system and the authority figures running it but, instead, in opposition to it. It is (or at least used to be) the very core of the American nature to rise above the system and "the man" and take matters into our own hands when the system failed us. Now, to hear 'zilla tell it, we are a people who have become weak kneed pussies unable to over come evil with out the safety net of an anonymous tip line.

I weep for this country.

Nope. McQueary had no power to go to the police station and report what he had seen. PSU put an ankle monitor on him to make sure he could never tell proper authorities.


Right Chiefzilla?

goddammit.

factual data?

you are talking about something a PSYCHOPATH told someone doing a study AFTER that psychopath was involved in something like the holocaust.

I'm sure that psychopath was honest in telling that researcher that he was REALLY A GOOD PERSON THAT GOT CAUGHT UP IN A SPLIT SECOND DECISION THAT WENT WRONG AND KILLED MILLIONS OF PEOPLE OVER SEVERAL YEARS.
you ****ing moron.

You shouldn't call someone a moron if you dont have your facts sstraight. You cant just make up how yyou think a study was done.
http://www.simplypsychology.org/obedience.html

There. If anything an interesting read. Read the pdf on miligram and hitler. This was a very very controlled experiment. You can choose to disagree with it if you want. But don't argue that it was some kind of a bush league approach.