Absolutely terrible comparison.

you are actually comparing downtown St Louis to downtown KC. JFC

also, St Louis has ALWAYS been a downtown stadium.

I love it there. Party before the game. party after the game. Save money because I didn't have to pay inflated bar prices. WIN

Professional sports stadiums should be privately funded. Fans should pay for their tickets - not build, develop or pay for maintenance - That is unless the citizens of the community are going to profit on a variety of tax breaks and subsidies, ticket sales, concessions, merchandise, broadcast contracts and eventually on the sale of the team.


Forbes Magazine: The Business Of Baseball: Kansas City Royals
http://www.forbes.com/lists/2011/33/...ls_339113.html


BOOK: Bad Sports: How Owners Are Ruining the Games We Love by Dave Zirin, sports editor of The Nation.

Click on "Google Preview" Upper left hand corner.
Preview window will open.
Go to "Contents" Upper right corner. Type in David Glass.
The Wal-Mart Way: David Glass and the Kansas City Royals (page 133)

http://bbpbooks.teachingforchange.or.../9781416554752

Hey Saul, want to hit the game after work?

Sure, what time?

We're going to meet up at J Bucks and head over to the stadium around 6:30.

Perfect. I get off at 4:30. I'm going to run over to Band Box to drop off my dry cleaning, and I'll meet you at 5.

Ok Saul you don't make sense here

In the first one you said the person leaves work and goes home but if they work downtown they wouldnt So if that is the case why go home?

Also a 45 mintue rush hour drive home? Wow must live pretty far out I can get from Independence to OP in 35 minutes

Also its been noted several times that it NOT in Raytown but Kansas City

I prefer our set up with the stadiums.. I can get there and parked after work in 20mins and drink cheap beer with my friends in the parking lot and grill out before the game.. Then after the game be home in 20mins to the northland..

Downtown stadium visits increased our costs and time..

Also, this would not be an issue if the Royals spent 100m on the team and had winning product.. The stadium would have minimum 30k for every game.. As someone else has said, most people do not live downtown so a downtown stadium would probably do worse with the same product as it would take way longer to park and walk.. Sports Complex is streamlined and quick..

Well first Wrigley Field isn't a good comparison because it is more of a tourist attraction than anything else. I imagine most people like myself who went to Chicago during baseball season have to go to Wrigley at least once.

Second I have been in a lot of the biggest cities in the country downtown and in comparison KC is a ghost town. There isn't millions of people walking around there is like 10-20. When people come to KC they mostly stay at the Plaza area or Crown Center. Those areas probably wouldn't be a bad place to build a stadium.

I do like the Sports Complex though because the ease of access getting in and out. But there really isn't any space to build things around it since it is mostly all parking and highways.

Are you usually this stupid?

This wasn't about some random 7-11 employee, you ****ing dumbass.

This was about the fact that the fan base is spread out across hundreds of miles.

What about a team like the Astros? Downtown stadium in the 4th largest market in the country and yet average less fans than the Royals.

Being downtown means LESS than winning. A lot less actually.

Huh? No.

Yes. It means less than winning. I think that's a given. Can we please stop beating this straw man?

There's no room to build anything because it's crammed full of emptiness.

You are probably right after looking at this pic. Probably the best bet would be where the trees are south of Arrowhead. That is about it though.

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3363/3...e364945793.jpg

Go look at the satellite view. There is plenty of space to put in whatever the hell.

Every fan base is spread out across hundreds of miles. That doesn't mean that you just say "**** it" and stick the stadium in the most god-forsaken part of that territory.

...if you're not Kansas City, I mean. If you're Kansas City, that's exactly what you do because there's a big parking lot there.

Yup.


So how do you explain the Houston situation. New downtown stadium in the 4th largest city in the US. Bars all around. Why is it that their attendance is so terrible?

I did. Where else are you seeing space?

Lack of parking.

Because Saul is a straw man and in search of a brain? :shrug:

http://blog.sanfranciscomusicbox.com...Scarecrow.jpeg

Yes every fan base is spread out.

But they call KC a small market for reason.

Can you guess what that reason is?

Because people like to make excuses for losing.

Perhaps they should have put the stadium in the middle of a high crime, blighted area on the outskirts of the city instead. That would solve the attendance problem.

JFC, you are this ****ing stupid.

We aren't talking about winning and losing you dipshit.

We're talking about people showing up.

It's a small market because there are far fewer people in the metropolitan area than a New York, or LA, or Chicago.

It's far more important for a team like the Royals to attract the fan from 100 miles away than it is for the Yankees.

The way to do that is to provide a winning product,

Other side of the cutoff.

Thanks for convincing me that winning helps. I had been arguing that winning doesn't help, so it's good of you to set me straight.

Explain to me how putting a stadium in the middle of nowhere attracts visitors from a hundred miles away better than a stadium where the Kaufman center is would. Is it the lure of staying at the Drury Inn? The ability to visit the saddest miniature golf course and worst water park in the country in a single afternoon in Cool Crest and Coco Keys?

That's way better than coming into town, staying at the Hotel Phillips, seeing a game at a downtown stadium, going to Power and Light, seeing a concert at Sprint Center, having a meal at the Plaza, checking out an indie art gallery in the crossroads, having a picnic at Loose Park, etc. all within a $15 cab ride.

LMAO

This thread has to be the most entertaining discussion of stadium location I've read in a while.

parking for sprint center is a pain in the ass. Lets try to bring in 13-30k more people 81 times per year and really piss them off.

Whether you like it or not, the average fan is going to choose the parking and tailgating over being in bars before and after games. Getting in and out quickly without having to navigate all the downtown one way streets is a huge plus as well.

Don't forget the down economy either. People don't want to have to spend MORE money to come to a game. Maybe the downtown elites with their expense account will maybe they won't but I wouldn't bet the bank on it.

If that's true, then we should be seeing a trend of stadiums built in the middle of nowhere...nothing but an interstate to be seen.

By the way, 50,000 people go to downtown Kansas City every weekday around 8:00 AM.

a WHOLE 50,000? What percentage of them do you really think are going to go to a ball game at the end of the day.

EDIT

Every city is different. What works in one does not always work in another. More than a majority of the fanbase don't like this idea based on what I have heard and read over the past few years of it being discussed.

Um, if 50,000 people can come downtown and park for work, 30,000 can come downtown and park for a game.

Tend to disagree. I view a downtown ballpark in KC as a foregone conclusion in many respects, since the K will not be renovated yet again. Next time around, it's new stadium time, which will likely be in 10-15 years.

Where will it go? Out by the Legends? Perhaps. Or downtown.

at $25 a pop I'm sure. Unless you don't mind walking 10 or more blocks.

Who pays $25 to park downtown? It's $3 to park at P&L. Event parking is $10 to $15.

I would be shocked if event parking for a ballgame would be less than $15-20 withing 4 blocks of the stadium. It's all about the prime real estate and the Royals would have no control of what places want to charge.

They won't give up the parking cash cow they have right now.

Why would baseball parking magically cost more than, say, Big XII tournament parking or a Garth Brooks concert parking?

You don't pay $25 to park one block from the Staples center for Lakers games. No way it's that high for a Royals game.

That is one statistic I didn't know. DowntownKC says there is 49,000 parking spots in the Central Business district.

The one problem I see would be day games during the week and there is quite of few of those early on in the season.

There would be challenges, but it wouldn't be that bad. Park and rides would be created where buses would shuttle people from lots a few miles away, some new garages would have to be built, and all that stuff, but a downtown overflowing with people 15 days a year is a great problem to have. There really is nothing quite like the atmosphere of a day game in a lively urban environment.

Hey guys let's take a day and go to the Royals game and spend the night there.

Sweet sounds cool. How much?

Well the game will be about $40 a ticket for each of us. Then we will want to eat at a restaurant nearby and get some drinks so that's about another $25 for each of us. Oh and parking will be about $15. But hey we can just leave our car in the lot and pick up a cab for $15 to go our restaurant on the plaza. Oh and once in the stadium you will want to buy a couple drinks and maybe some nachos so everyone bring an extra $20 to the game.

Well I guess that's not too bad. What about the hotel?

Well that's also right in the area. We can get the Hotel Phillips for just $150 for that night. So what do you say guys? Just around $160 a person let's do it.

You serious, Clark? I just want a few drinks and a Royals game. GTFO.

And that is pretty much Saul's entire argument.

Oh and FYI, $20 won't cover a couple drinks and nachos. heh

Amazing that this stuff still carries on like it does after the renovations. I think he's just trolling you guys. I love KC, but it's not Chicago, and it probably will never be Chicago in our lifetime. Just a terrible comparison. Major differences in traffic, public transportation, etc. The size difference in the urban area is significant.

I'm not opposed to a downtown stadium really, but I think it would be sad to see the K torn down. It's not even about the location... it's that the K truly one of the most beautiful sports stadiums in America. At least I think so. I've been to several more "modern" parks that are certainly good, but not quite the same. Same for Arrowhead... it's not quite as beautiful, but it's structure allows for a homefield advantage you just can't get in a lot of new stadiums. I don't know why putting it downtown and attracting the element that just wants to be seen is so exciting. That's one of the great things about KC. But I go to sporting events because I actually want to go to a sporting event. It'll be interesting to see what happens next time the stadium talk rolls around. The K has actually become a historic building in baseball terms... it's the 6th oldest stadium in the league. Considering the A's want to move, it might soon be the 5th oldest, alongside Fenway, Wrigley, Dodger Stadium and Angels Stadium... with really no other stadium even close. That's kind of cool.

nah, we should just tear it down.

It is quite obvious Saul wants to attract a different type of "fan" to the games. The average every day fan who usually is working on some kind of budget needs to be weeded out. Like pro sports isn't doing enough of that on their own.....

Hence why they need to encase the club level of Arrowhead in tinted glass so it isn't as embarrassing.

Milk was talking about people coming from out of town to see a Royals game. You don't have to do all of those things. The Drury Inn and Denny's will still be there if you'd rather drive 100 miles for a roach motel and a grand slam breakfast.

The people of Kansas City have spoken, and they want this.




http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3363/3...e364945793.jpg

yeah, if you drive a 100 miles that last 8 to go from downtown to the K would just be too much. Especially in that horrific KC traffic.

Yup,and none of those downtown people would want to take their kids to the games. But, who wants to drive all the way home from downtown, back home, and then right back downtown again. Then we can walk our kids through the bar district going in and coming out. That seems fun.

If I still worked downtown KC a downtown stadium probably would have made me go to fewer games. It's just easy to take your kids to the stadium now. Leave work, get the kids, eat something and go to a game. I wouldn't have felt like going back downtown and looking for parking, or parking in some crummy lot where the only guy watching the cars is some crackhead looking dude.

Hey Kietzman,

We get it. The fact that the stadium isn't downtown is stuck in your craw. However, the decision not to build a downtown stadium was made YEARS ago, and it's not going to change just because you insist upon displaying your butthurt over it. It's just plain idiotic to repetitively whine about it for 20 pages on Chiefsplanet.

While you're at it, maybe you should spend several days complaining about how the Chiefs should NEVER have drafted that turd Todd Blackledge. And maybe you should obsess about how stupid the Royals were when they traded David Cone for Ed Hearn. And can you believe the Cubs traded Lou Brock for Ernie Broglio???? And what were the Red Sox thinking when they sold Babe Ruth to the Yankees????? I don't know about you, but I'm STILL pissed about the way Cain treated Abel. That bastard!!!! Let's start a 20 page thread about it!!!!!

Those conversations would be just as relevant as your constant whining about the location of a pair of stadiums that opened in 1973, were refurbished a couple of years ago, and aren't going ANYWHERE. If you're that unhappy, move to St. Louis and shut up. You can sit in the downtown stadium there and :whackit: to your heart's content.

Saul Good is getting mauled in this thread.

Good luck with that. Meanwhile every other city agrees with me and builds their stadiums where people actually congregate for things other than just the game.

Precisely.

If I wanted to be like every other city I would be living in any other city. I like my beloved Kansas City just the way it is. Sure there are some oddities here and there but, what place doesn't have something weird about it. I do not want to be like NY, Chicago, St. Louis, LA, Houston ect. I want to be just a little bit different, a little unique. There is a certain charm to this town, and I don't people like you who pine for the approval of the "big dogs" on the coasts (which will never happen anyway) messing it up. If you are that fucking embarrassed by the way we do things move away.

In theory you're correct, but there's no reason to be a miserable wretch about it. If having this kind of enviroment is so important to you, you really should move to one of those cities. That's the great thing about America.
Posted via Mobile Device

And lose all those Jackson County tax dollars he pays? No ****ing way!

I think there is something to be said about actually being out in the country while swaying to Friends In Low Places.

LMAO

I thought the original argument was walking distance? The stadium from there to pnl is what 25 bucks?

I'm not miserable about it at all. I love going to games. I would just like to go to more of them and have something to do before and afterwards.

This city spent tens of millions on an entertainment district only to dump hundreds of millions into a stadium in a dead area and got next to nothing to show for it.

There was no significant boost in attendance at Kaufman. Nobody is blown away by how much better the stadium got.

Instead of combining the entertainment district and the stadium, Kansas City made yet another shortsighted decision. As a result, the district can't pay the note, and the Royals are at the bottom in attendance yet again.

There's nothing charming about a failing entertainment district and an empty stadium. Green Bay is charming. Kaufman on a Tuesday is just depressing.

I talk about this because the city needs to get it right next time, whatever "it" may be. Remember that soccer stadium that was going to replace Bannister Mall? What was that, five years ago? Last I saw, that vacant mall is still there, but Overland Park built the nicest soccer complex in the country. Meanwhile, Cerner (you know, the company with it's world headquarters a block from Bannister Mall) built one of the nicest soccer stadiums in the country over in Kansas.

This City could fall into a big of tits and come out with a dick in it's mouth, and it upsets me because I've lived here my entire life, and I love this town.

I think it's a little more than that, but even then, that's a $50 round trip if you're staying downtown, $60 with tips.

This is a solid post that makes me feel a little guilty about attacking you earlier today.

You do have a good point about the management of this city.

I think there are many valid points there, and plenty of merit to those ideas. However, I just don't find going to the K depressing. It's one of the most beautiful sports venues in the country. What's depressing to me is that people don't appreciate that. It would've been great to have downtown in the backdrop and all that, but they just didn't do it that way. Its a bit sad that people would tear the stadium down to build what's become the cookie cutter new "retro" park, when you have the real thing now. And sure that's probably clinging on to childhood memories a bit and all that... but its sad to think it could be torn down just so some guy can be seen for 7 innings and go hit up the bars. But I like watching baseball.
Posted via Mobile Device

This is an insane argument. I can't believe I am not involved.

This, this and more this.

the ugliest stadium I've seen is ATT park where the Giants play. WTF

You've obviously never been there. It is easily the most incredible place to watch a game I have ever seen.

Kauffman Stadium is unique because of the big centerfield scoreboard, the beautiful fountains, the Boulevard Beer and Gates BBQ, and visiting fans love to come here because their teams usually sweep the series.

oh, I'm sure etc. I"m sure saying it looks ughly as poop. (at least the interior etc; don't know what the exterior looks like)

LMAO

Ugly

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p...rk-Bridge2.jpg

This I can agree with.

This I cannot. But I'm sure you have a link to an article ready that backs this claim up. Right?

Tell me what blows you away. Is it the two little sports bars that have no seating and rent out the decks so that most fans can never actually utilize them? Is it the playground? Is it the luxury boxes?

I'll grant you that the scoreboard is cool, but the renovations cost $250,000,000. That's more than the entire franchise was valued at prior to the renovation.

That money isn't providing value to the city. It simply increased David Glass's net worth on the backs of the taxpayers. Maybe he'll spend some of that money in Arkansas where he lives and boost their economy.

There's nothing wrong with the actual stadium in KC. I've been to 5 or 6 and once you're inside it's just as good as any as far as I'm concerned. I like the renovations.

I just don't like how the interior looks. (ATT)

The stadium is very nice.

Just about everything blows me away. I couldn't care less about some of the kiddie things since I don't have children, but everything else is top notch.

Now where's that link?

The bolded section is drawing some conclusions that it shouldn't. You've spend all thread unsuccessfully arguing that the Royals would receive increased attendance if they played downtown, so no, there isn't causation ("as a result") just because you say there is. But more importantly, there isn't any causation between the Power & Light District's failures and the lack of a major sports presence downtown. P&L is failing for a variety of reasons related to developer tax breaks, Cordish & KCMO not working together well, and the insane cost of rent for businesses. Sprint Center is a huge concert draw, one the world's best performing concert venues, and it brings a lot of people downtown. Drawing people to P&L isn't the problem.

I guess no one goes to Phillies, Flyers, 76ers or Eagles games since these stadiums aren't in downtown:

http://thephillyphour.files.wordpres...ts-complex.jpg