i wouldn't say it was pretty damn good.. THey hurt pretty bad by loosing kalil. THey weren't as bad was WVU but they weren't good by any means.

This is where you are getting off though. His physical abilities don't allow him to have as high of a ceiling as the others.


All that stuff you just said is great, and I'm sure he could be great at it. But in the end he has to have arm strength and accuracy to get the ball where it needs to go.


Thats what I question.

I can see Barkley succeeding here. We have the talent/coaching to help him out.

Charles has helped much worse look like a competent *ahem Cassel*

he has plenty of arm strength for the NFL and he's plenty accurate to. Hell he's got a stronger arm that half the NFL at this point. Accuracy he's had and he can even learn more and go farther. Especially with a system and coach like reid. Hell peyton has a ****ing NOODLE arm but he does what he does cause he's smart and he has the system perfectly fit to him.

I'm a firm believer that accuracy is a product of the system that you put around your QB. Granted there is natural accuracy, that i think barkley and geno both have. But system and coaching can take it to that elite level, ala geno in his air raid system with his teams system

I don't know if you follow Nick Jacobs on Twitter, but he just made an interesting point about Geno in the KSU game.


Basically said KSU baited Geno into throws, were sound defensively and that Geno was limited by the WVU o philosophy and took what KSU gave him.

The system DID get figured out and Dana h did little to nothing to adapt to that. Maybe that was coaching or maybe it was talent outside of the two receivers...maybe it was Geno himself not being able to figure out what the defenses were trying to do to him.

That's where it's hard to make a real judgement with such limited info available to us.

No doubt everything got turned sideways by KSt and never turned back.

If Geno is able to answer those questions in the meeting rooms, he will go first overall, if he isn't able to...he could be waiting to be drafted for som time.

Should be interesting.

Accuracy is wha????


Barkley struggled with accuracy this year throwing a career high in INTs.


Barkley has the ceiling of a high end game manager. You can win with that, even win a playoff game or two. But without an elite group around him, I tend to think thats about it.

Why don't you see that being the case?

What I am seeing Is paralysis by analysis. We've heard so many times that this class of QBs is weak and there is no Luck that we're subconsciously looking for reasons why the Chiefs might not take him.

If there's one thing I am pretty sure of its that we care A LOT more about whether he throws at the combine than the NFL teams do. They've got his tape and they know even more than we do what they are watching.

At the combine, they want to sit in a room with him and pick his brain. If he throws, that's the icing on the cake.

As for being labeled a Geno-ite, I can't imagine why you would say that. You would prefer to ignore the TRUTH in hopes that people wouldn't label you as being subjective? That's just crazy talk.

Was Sam Bradford a sure fire #1 pick? Because I sure as hell don't see a lot of difference.

ABG right? :evil:

Just don't agree at all.

He has the highest floor, yes. But his ceiling isn't close to Wilson's or Geno's.

I can see Barkley fitting in a lot of places and playing right away.

I don't see him as a guy taking the team on his back and winning in the NFL though.

I'm not sure I'd go that far. Barkley can be another Matt Ryan if he goes into the right situation.

IMO, of course.

Well, my Geno ite take was sarcastic as hell, but I guess that didn't cross.

I think you've been bombarded by anti geno/Qb stuff on here you've got embattled soldier syndrome or something htis. Calm yourself, I'm one of the good guys.


I do have questions about Geno. Doesn't mean I don't want/think we will take him at 1 overall.

Good post.

The conversation level in this thread is so far and away superior to the level of conversation when Blackbob was an active poster.

It's like tom brady, he was a pretty accurate passer coming out of college and he was great at coming back cause he had that fierceness about him. You put hi with NE and they started to MOLD their team to his strengths and now he's talked about being GOAT. They have gone thru players left and right and he still does what he does. They've been doing it for years cause they implemented the system and made it work, they've made tweaks here and there but it's the same system he's always been successful at. Same with manning. If you took either QB and thru them into a completely new system they would go from GOAT to above average game managers.

Phillip RIvers is another example. He did great under Norv cause norv tailored to him. You take norv away and i think phillip rivers is a HORRIBLE QB. Bad footwork, horrible mechanics, and weak arm. Unless their new OC is a genius i forsee rivers failing this year just like he has been the last couple.

Barkley can be deadly accurate, he threw so many INT's and his completion % was down a little from having a subpar line, a bad defense, and mediocre running game. Barkley had to force alot of things and put the team on his back quite abit. Like i said he single handled kept them into the oregon and ucla game. His defense was just complete shit

so much FAIL it makes sweet, cuddly, and innocent baby Jesus sweep.

Personally, I'd say the Matt Ryan comparison is spot on. Then again, I'm not a Matt Ryan fan. I think he's another high-end game manager.

No syndrome here.

I have questions about Geno too.

I am just upfront about the fact the pay they are MY questions and just because I have them doesn't mean NFL teams and scouts do.

Agree with matt ryan comparison.. BUt i like that cause i think matt ryan is a DAMN DAMN DAMN good QB and i wanted us to take him if it wasn't for the damn coin flip!!!!!

matt ryan will get his team there someday if they continue to build it right and replace the aging pieces.

Or Dan Marino the patron saint of bad mechanics who could pass the ball beautifully as if it was on a laser trace.

Ya think?

Can't say I didn't tell everybody as much.

Not to call you out here totally, but lets stop comparing these guys to the best QB's in the game.

Manning and Brady are likely 2 of the best 5 QB's to EVER play. EVER. Lets not start with that.


Barkley isn't deadly accurate. He is accurate, but he doesn't have elite accuracy. He could develop it, sure. But like it has been discussed, Barkley is pretty much topped out mechanically. Changing a little here or there isn't going to make much difference.

He just lacks the arm strength to drive the ball down the field.

You wouldn't take Matt Ryan with our top pick and be happy?

I sure as **** would.

THIS.

Sorry, I didn't like Ryan coming out and to this point, I was pretty much dead on about him. Just good enough to get you there, not good enough to go further.

I'm not comparing anyone to either, i'm just using them as the accuracy is a product of the system discussion. IMO barkley's ceiling could be that of peyton mannings, at his lowest ceiling he could be a schaub. Who will win you some games but all around is a HORRIBLE QB. But i think the others are right with a matt ryan type QB comparison. Which i would be GREAT with matt ryan

Yeah, I don't see the Matt Ryan comparison. I'd say for Barkley to be successful he'd have to be a little more Brees and have elite accuracy to make up for his lack of arm strength.

I don't think one "develops accuracy" I think that is a trait you are either born with, or not. Similar to an elite arm.

You can improve here and there, but there aren't many guys that went from completing 55% of their throws to completing over 65% ...

I bet Peyton Manning and Aaron Rodgers could knock a soda can off a guys head from 15 years out when they were 15 years old and there are guys in the NFLhat still can't.

but this is where we differ cause i think barkley's got a stronger arm then you do.

Those teams were able to tailor their systems around those guys BECAUSE they had elite accuracy. It didn't cause them to be accurate.


Sorry, but a system doesn't create accuracy.

Barkley's ceiling isn't anywhere close to "Peyton Manning".

I kind of agree with this. Some guys have it, some guys don't.

This.

Lack of arm strength was the main reason he threw so many more INTS this year. He tried to fit it in smaller windows and just didn't have the spin to get it there.


My biggest problem with USC QB"s isn't because there is some "USC ASS STIGMA " liek others think, it's because they usually have the best talent available around them and are pretty much tapped out, from a growth standpoint when you get them.

He's not comparing them, but Barkley's ceiling is Peyton Manning, the best regular season QB of all time.


First off, IMO, thats comparing. Secondly, if you think a guys ceiling coming out of college is to be the greatest QB of all time, yeah, you might want to rethink that a little.

2007 New England Patriots 16 16 398 578 68.9 4,806 8.3

2008 New England Patriots 16 15 327 516 63.4 3,693 7.2

2009 New England Patriots 16 16 371 565 65.7 4,398 7.8

the year before cassel and the year after cassel in NE's system.

I'm sure anyone on here would have taken that system here in KC with those kind of numbers from cassel.

Again, I see you don't have 100 posts, so you probably weren't here when it was discussed, but when Cassel became the starter, the Pats completely changed their offensive system.

I think Barkleys problem was that he relied on that freak of nature WR too much and teams picked up on that. He has said as much a few times.

I think Stafford had the same problem with CJ this year.

Sometimes, it can be a curse to have a receiver that is that good.

im fine with Genos weaknesses because his strengths outwiegh them.
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Well i don't see it as comparing by saying he has that kind of ceiling but you guys do. I just think he could be a smart Football player that could get his team into the best situation to win, I think he's got a stronger arm then most but he leans to much on touch passes and trying to float them in there.

I don't think coming out of college he's going to be GOAT, but hell lets be real ANY qb could come out and be the next GOAT it just depends on the skillset and if the kid wants it bad enough. I personally think barkley's skillset is very high. He's the most polished he just needs to grow mentally with the game.

No i haven't seen anything but i'm sure they did tweak their system to fit cassel more than brady, which IMO is another example that the system greatly aids the QB's accuracy

Aiding the QB's accuracy doesnt equal making a QB more accurate. They tweaked their system because Cassel wasn't as accurate as Brady, coudn't read defenses as well, and was assfart at pushing it down the field.

Geno Smith has adequate arm strength. To me, it is a pass/fail event. Can he put it on enough of a rope to fit it into tight windows before the defense can react on a 10-15 yard route? PASS. I have seen it several times this year.

Barkley? Not so readily. Barkley is someone who could make throwing at the combine pay dividends if he can demonstrate some tangible velocity.

Geno's accuracy and precision is deadly and to all levels of the field. That is what I want. All the big-armed guys get totally overblown, because so many of them end up being gunslingers.

If you are saying a guys ceiling is the greatest QB of all time, you're wrong.

A system can create completion percentage.

Ball placement is a product of biomechanics - either you can repeat your delivery or you can't.

You can improve in the margins, but that's about it. Think of it as moving within letter grades. If you're a B- level passer, you can become a B and maybe a B+, but a guy with B- accuracy is never going to be an A rated trhower and a person with C level accuracy as a rookie is almost certainly doomed to a career of mediocrity.

That said, the right system can mask it and I think it's the exact opposite of the system most would advocate. If only half of your balls are going to be accurate, might as well launch it downfield and make them count.

The short passing game should be utilized by truly pinpoint passers. I honestly think that your more scattershot arms should become downfield bombers. That's what finally made Eli effective and that's when Stafford was at his best.

Geno's accuracy is such that a smart coach will make him a guy that thrives by absolutely picking teams apart in the 10 yard range.

sheer arm strength? Yes, on a technique perspective no

good post. i can agree with that.

again o.city it's my opinion i'm not using it to compare, sorry if you took it that way i'm just using it as similarities of what i've seen as far as mental makeup. I think any QB could be the next GOAT if they have the skillset and the drive.. Hell it could be geno, it could be ****ing tyler bray. I just haven't seen enough of either of them to say what my thoughts on ceiling would be

Well, thats pretty much what they've done with Flacco.

I'm not totally sure if he's arguing that a system can physically make a guy more accurate, or like you have said, mask it if he's not.

ok guess i should have worded better, I agree with dj that it can mask it and bring the #'s up and can be serviceable. I'm not saying brady or peyton are not naturally accurate i'm just saying their systems allowed them to be in the considerations for GOAT, if you would have changed that they would still be damn good QB's and accurate but don't know about the elite status that they have reached would be gained in a different system

Exactly, Flacco's a great example.

If you have a guy that's just flat going to misfire on half the balls he throws, the risk/reward needs to make every time he drops back worth the possible turnover.

When you're Mark Sanchez or Matt Cassel and your 'accurate' pass is worth 8 yards because it was a checkdown and then your inaccurate pass is thrown to the shoes of a RB out of the backfield or picked off over the middle, you're of no use to anyone. But if you're Flacco or Eli and an accurate pass is good for 40 yards and an inaccurate one is, at worst, the equivalent of a mediocre punt, well at that point you can be useful even if you're not precise.

That's why I love Geno for this scheme (and why I can tolerate Smith). A guy that's accurate is actually better served in a short passing game or, if he's incredibly accurate, the high volume intermediate passing game like they run in NE.

Tom Brady is Albert Pujols - Pujols is a superlative hitter that occasionally puts it over the wall when he hits it just right. Joe Flacco is Prince Fielder - plenty of flaws but he swings !@#$ing hard and when he squares it up, it goes a long goddamn way.

I can agree with you on Brady, but Manning would have been an elite QB in any system in his younger days. He could put the football anywhere on the field on target. Laser or touch pass, he could do it. His arm is half gone, so now I think he is limited more to a short passing game for 90% of his throws.

That's what I don't get about our f/o and this draft.

Reid runs an offense that throws the ball like crazy and really depends on the QB being accurate. Trying to play like this with some cheese-puff you pull off the shelf in fa/4th round isn't going to work.

Us not taking a QB early just seems counter productive to me...

Fear not; Smith cometh.
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I am getting so tired of hearing that from homer fans and media. Of course there is no RGIII or Luck in this draft. They were drafted last year. Guess what, there were QBs taken in all the other drafts that were not RGIII and Luck as well.

Such stupid reasoning.

I know some guys like Cutler have a cannon, but he's a perfect example of relying on that physical gift and it results in sloppy plays and turnovers.

Then take Peyton - who has a WAY less on any ball he has ever tossed. Heck, I was talking with him one day and he even admitted his arm strength was below average, and said that Eli without a doubt possessed way more of the natural throwing talent. It also meant that as he grew up playing he keyed in on his touch and accuracy as well as being forced to go thru his progressions as he wasn't so brash about his ability to sling it into really tight windows which often are really just try to force the ball in and not the smart read or play.

What I didn't know was just what a howitzer that Kaepernick does have! JESUS, MARY, & JOSEPH!! Here's a video posted on YouTube of him firing a couple passes, with one distancing itself at 264 yards.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Gtv...e_gdata_player

* note the throw is from an elevated position but I have no clue how to adjust what the throw would be if on a level playing field. I have to imagine it still means he can essentially get the ball from end zone to ends one if needed.

It is counterproductive.

Which is precisely why we'll take a QB #1 overall.

Breeze is a good comparison. Look what he did in college. Threw the ball all over the place with great accuracy in what was described then as a gimmicky offense. That is probably a better Geno comparison but Geno has better physical traits.

Here's Drew Brees' predraft scouting report

Positives... Touch passer with the ability to read and diagnose defensive coverages...Confident leader who knows how to take command in the huddle...Very tough and mobile moving around in the pocket...Has a quick setup and is very effective throwing on the move...Throws across his body with great consistency...Hits receivers in stride and improvises his throws in order to make a completion...Puts good zip behind the short and mid-range passes...Shows good judgement and keen field vision...Has a take-charge attitude and is very cool under pressure...Hits receivers in motion with impressive velocity...Has superb pocket presence and uses all of his offensive weapons in order to move the chains...Has solid body mechanics and quickness moving away from center... Elusive scrambler with the body control to avoid the rush.

Negatives... Plays in the spread offense, taking the bulk of his snaps from the shotgun... Tends to side-arm his passes going deep...Lacks accuracy and touch on his long throws... Seems more comfortable in the short/intermediate passing attack...Does not possess the ideal height you look for in a pro passer, though his ability to scan the field helps him compensate in this area...Will improvise and run when the passing lanes are clogged, but tends to run through defenders rather than trying to avoid them to prevent unnecessary punishment

That's Tyler Wilson.

APlayed in a freeze-option offense, which means he faced mostly man-on-man coverage and did not have to do that much reading of defenses. Generally, when he did have to read defenses, he just had to read half the field. Can still be a streaky and erratic passer. Needs work on his drop-back techniques. Still must improve timing, touch and anticipation of receiver. Tends to hold on to the ball too long and must learn when to unload. Gets sloppy with the ball at times and is very sloppy when he comes up under center to handle the exchange, leading to unnecessary fumbles. Played in a domed stadium in college and has not had to play in a lot of bad weather. Needs to work on his deep passing. May not be tough enough with his teammates and may be too nice of a guy.
nd Here is McNabb from 1999. If Reid would take this guy, surely he would take Geno

Yeah, I think it's interesting to see the scouts takes on some of the QB's that have been successful other than RG3 and Luck over the past 10 years. They all have major questions, and here people are picking apart Geno Smith, who's scouting reports are for the most part, very positive.

I like the Brees comparison.

I probably like Barkley more than most.

With Brees, it's not just about accuracy, it's about anticipation.

He not only studies defenses, he studies his receivers, learns their strengths and weaknesses, their tendencies, and knows exactly where they will be on any given play.

He has one of the weakest arms in the league, but because he has dedicated himself to mastering the mental aspects of the game, he throws with the best combination of accuracy and anticipation in the game.

great way of describing a couple of head scratching QBs...the distance between the bad and good versions of themselves is incredible...but you've pointed out why they're worth it in spite of inconsistencies...

perfection is really over rated anyways, in prospects and in performance...much more important is the ability to be successful at key moments, under certain situations

i think Barkley will be the most interesting to watch in the draft...can see him top 6 or near falling out the first...frankly, I think drafting a lug like Glennon over him is insane, but hey...

as I've said many times, I've liked him since he was a frosh...though this year did shake me a bit, just some strange decisions under pressure

i will be disappointed if we don't draft smith, but will not be disappointed if we draft Barkley...there is a coach and a system that can win with him (quite possibly Reid), even if requires a lot of offensive weaponry a la Ryan

i feel like barkley will to some degree break the perceived USC curse...just because...

Have to consider that this past season is probably the first time in his life that Barkley faced pressure on the kind of consistent basis that he did.

It was a new, learning experience, and I thought he did a fair job in handling it, and will only be better for it.

I think it certainly has to be at least in part because of a sliding scale after RG3 and Luck. Which is ironic, because he most likely would have been the third QB off the board in last year's class, going in Tannehill's spot (if not higher - and I mean if Geno was coming out as a senior with that group of players). But this year? Oh, no way, he's not worth a high pick.

In any other draft any other year, his name's in the discussion for the #1. Just not this year. In a class with no clear star at any position.

I also think, however, that there's another factor: we have the #1 pick. And as everyone knows, we haven't drafted a quarterback since Moses parted the red sea. So I think there's a well-deserved assumption that we won't take one now. And I think a certain vocal segment of the fanbase is gunshy about doing it as well. Maybe they've been conditioned to think that way, always go for the 'safe' pick, or maybe they just don't believe it will ever happen, either.

Great post.

The last few pages have been great. Good takes all around.

Indeed. His stats were slightly up INTs included. It would be interesting to know if most of those came from poor decision making or lack of arm strength.

I never thought of Brees having a weak arm-lol We have the top 3 weakest armed QB's on our team now-lol Brady Quit threw a swing pass that hit the ground-lol I

I don't think barkley has a weak arm by any stretch. I think his INT's were up because he faced ALOT of pressure, his o-line was not very good, he constently had pressure directly on him. So rather than going thru his reads like he was able to years previous he would try to touch pass into tight windows.

My 1 knock on barkley is i think he falls in love with touch passes to much rather than actually showing off his arm strength. Which is fine if you have the time to set it up and read it properly. But this year he didn't have that luxury

Post #286 - #314 are pure money. Great discussion

Brees is probably bottom 10 in arm strength in the league.

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It's always a bit scary when a college QB has had shoulder and knee problems. I think Barkley will have a hard time staying healthy in the NFL

good possibility, i don't think the knee bothers me, and honestly the shoulder didn't bother me either but it seems that he still hasn't healed. I remember watching an interview with him where he was hoping he would make the bowl game, but he wasn't able to make it in time. Seemed he only needed like another week. now i'm hearing he still hasn't recovered to make the senior bowl. Has me a little more concerned about it for sure.

The one good thing is that it wasn't a serious injury, no tears and no surgery, maybe he's just being cautious and building more muscle on it.

I do think people overstate his lack of arm strength, but he would not be in the upper half of the league when he gets drafted.

Matt Barkley is going to succeed or fail in the NFL because of his dedication to his craft, or lack thereof.

I tend to believe he's a guy that will put in the work.

The knee brace concerns me...
http://www.google.com/url?source=img...4qP3PUkPVQCmwg

Rehab pick up game?