At least Hardman had legit speed and was useful on punt returns and goal line situations with jet sweeps/bubble screens.

Skyy adds nothing… he’s the ultimate JAG.

The last year Hardman was healthy he caught ~60 passes and had ~700 yards

If Moore doesn't improve, will he be on the bubble in camp next year?

He doesn't play special teams which makes it seem hard to keep him around if he's not your 3 or 4.

He won't be cut.

You would think… but my concern is him getting that MEHHH teflon, when Andy keeps him around and continues to show him loyalty that is not supported by on the field production.

was Sauce Gardener covering him last night or what?

So far a worse pick than Mecole.

Yeah, starting to get a similar feeling.

MEH just became bulletproof for some odd reason. I'm hopeful Moore doesn't get the same treatment.

But in the end there sure are a lot of similarities in how they've been treated. And at least MEH did have a quality game or two early on here. That's more than can really be said of Skyy.

Mecole was catching long ass touchdown bombs in his second game as a rookie.

He was miles better than Skyy and that’s not a compliment to how good Mecole was either.

We were in heavy most of the night and ran over 30 times for 250 yards... not going to be a lot of completions to WR with those stats...

Agreed. He'll hang around and inexplicably occupy a roster spot until his rookie contract expires, then vanish into obscurity.

Unless things improve soon.

I'd rather have paid Mecole. Annoying that we didn't keep him for peanuts.

Shit they brought DeMarcus Robinson back after his contract expired. He was garbage.

Oof. Forgot about that one.

And yeah, that guy was terrible.

but wasn't he also on the Dave Toub Memorial Scrub Scholarship for a couple of those years? Toub loved him as a gunner, IIRC.

Something tells me Toub isn't going go to war for Moore.

I'd rather have Hardman making a little more than he should and a 2nd round pick than Skyy Moore, and I don't think that point is debatable at the present time.

True but in his second season he caught 41 balls for 560 yards. I am in no way defending Moore, just sayin the busts are comperable IMO.

By the end of his 2nd year Hardman had roughly 1,100 yards on 70 receptions over his first two seasons.

Moore has a LOOOOOONG way to go to get to those figures over his first 2 years. And while Moore had himself a nice punt return against Cincy, Hardman's kickoff return against Houston helped get that thing turned around as well in his rookie season.

I mean you can compare them - but it doesn't stack up favorably for Moore anywhere to speak of.

Hardman also had Hill and Watkins in front of him in 2019 and 2020. Moore's had a more favorable situation to earn targets. He just hasn't.

Dude shows flashes but I don't think he has the ability to consistently do anything exceptionally well that will allow him to ever become an above average WR.

Hopefully he proves me wrong but I just haven't seen it this far in his career.

Sauce Gardener probably took away his side of the field, I didn't hear his name much last night probably because Andy wouldn't gameplan to throw to the best CB in the NFL. Maybe Skyy occupied that side, I didn't watch closely enough at the Jets defense to see where Sauce was at but that probably has something to do with it.

I'm getting Speaks vibes.

Part of it is not wanting to admit they made a mistake.

Yeah - I'm sure they had Sauce Gardner following Skyy Moore.

That checks out...

At one point Sauce was defending Justyn Ross.

Now, that was suppose to the moment where he snags a one handed pass over Sauce's head for an 80 yard TD and puts his name on the map, leading to Demi Lovato gargling his balls the next day.

But we're 4 games in and that's yet to happen.

Ross has as much experience with the playbook as Skyy Moore and KT, and even more than rice. What gives?

That's a common tactic. Use the number 1 CB on the number 2 WR to erase them and then double the number 1 option. Not calling him a number 2 receiver but he may have been the guy to be blanked while he was on the field.

The Jets actually don't move their CBs so you could lineup Jackdick mc shit **** on the side Gardner is on and that's who he's covering.

Man who even knows whats going on there, he's getting on the field some but isn't being targeted

As far as Hardman goes: Always was criminally under rated on CP.

No, he's demonstrated that he isn't a natural, nuanced WR. But he didn't always have to be either.

I'm guessing it's the investment. Giving the second rounders first shot. Ross isn't getting nearly the same snaps because Skyy and Rice are. Don't want all the newbies in together.

Just my guess.

I'm hopeful that they give him more of a shot soon.

I'm not seeing much from Moore. I'm not giving up quite yet but he's not going where Mahomes expects him to. I saw that last night on the little out Pat was expecting him to cut back and he just rounded it off.

You most often see him on the field early in the game (not sure about last night).

Against the Bears, he was part of the first 15 play install. Which tells you that the Chiefs are trying....

Yeah Pat gave Moore the Hardman treatment last night.

The thing is through a lot of Pats time here we've been a "separation" team. The WR creates space in the route Pat hits them with the ball..

The guys we have now aren't creating that kind of openness anymore. Ross is going to be more of a contested catch, high point guy..

Throwing up back shoulder and jump balls has never been something we've done..Pat may just not trust the guys enough to think they'll win those balls.

There's only 3 guys in the WR room that've shown they're worthy of that trust.

MVS/Watson/Toney.

Andy knows what's up. I think once we get settled into MVS, Toney and Rice we'll be ok.
I'd really love to get Hardman back too. We used to "manufacture" quite a few yards off gadget plays alone with him. You know considering how bad Zach Wilson has been I just cannot understand why the Jets don't utilize him in that role. Like if there's any team in the league that needs to "manufacture" yards and first downs...it's the ****ing Jets.

They don't do that arena ball stuff.

WTF?

Dude, that's the problem. We have 5-6 Brian Pringles.

If I had to guess, he just hasn't earned Pats trust yet... praying that he does SOON

Thats gotta be at least some of it, but throwing to those kind of guys needs to be something Pat has in his tool box if Veach starts bringing them in

He was targeted once within the first handful of plays on a quick 5 yard hitch. He dropped it after getting hit.

And that’s probably an issue alongside not getting separation. If he can’t make contested catches, he won’t make it in this league.

I saw someone say that last week too, "He dropped it".

He didn't drop it. The defender made a great rip on the ball to knock it out of his hands.

I was promised some shit about Justyn Ross and i'm patiently waiting for the 2nd half of the season to see if those checks are gonna get cashed.

But i'm a big believer in young, talented guys flashing early and often if they are in fact young talented guys.

It took ONE game for Toney to jump off the screen.

TRULY gifted players typically show it right away. If a player doesn't, it doesn't mean they won't turn into good players down the road, but we can probably scratch them off the "Super star potential" list.

You’ll notice I said “He dropped it after getting hit” so I do recognize it wasn’t one of those Rashee Rice types wide open drops.

But does it matter? Dudes a 6’4” WR. He needs to be able to make catches through a little bit of contact.

I agree. I hated to see him go for cheap. He was playing pretty damn well last year before he got hurt too. Plus being selfish I LOVED watching him run the jet sweep. That was an absolute thing of beauty. It's a little crazy and I can't even believe I'm saying this, but the more I think about it...Mecole Hardman seems to be exactly what this offense needs.

1.) He's fast enough to take the top off the defense and DBs have to respect his speed
2.) He can run the gadget plays that stretch the D laterally
3.) He's a legit receiving threat
4.) He knows the offense
5.) He'd be cheap

check

I wonder if his immaturity pissed off Selah at some point, and now he's in the dog house?

Where'd all this Mecole Hardman talk come from anyway?

We're carrying 7 WR's right now.

Mecole Hardman is one of Veach's worst picks ever, Justyn Ross is the 2nd coming of MegaTron and Richie James is gonna lead the team in receptions.

We're only 4 games in. Ride those predictions out, mofo's.

Im going to guess that Saleh, a DC, has no offensive creativity and just wants to run the ball and play defense.

He'd rather roll with Cobb, who's career shoulda been over like 3 years ago. Hardman might **** a play up, but he might bust a play wide open too.

He'll end up in Miami next year as the Dolphins continue the Chiefs' '17-'21 strategy.

Sometimes even the most well reasoned predictions don't pan out

Four games is a reasonable starting sample size, and thus far its looking like at least some of that initial optimism wasn't warranted... frankly at this point, even acquiring Hardman for a diet coke would be a huge win

They faced a legit secondary last night, and the results were less than impressive by any definition... its ok to acknowledge facts on the ground and change stances to one degree or another

Well....i'd argue that they weren't that well reasoned to begin with...but not trying to beat a dead horse here.

After 4 games, i think they're kinda...well, who they've demonstrated they've always been. Though i had hoped Moore could at least get open in small windows. Even as a career "Moore hater", i didn't think he'd get bullied by physical DB's as much as he has. But even in my optimism for Moore i was always 50/50 on that ever panning out.

And in saying that, i still think it's way too early to just jump ship and start asking to trade for Mecole Hardman etc.

This is the group that we decided on for better or worse. Well, now you gotta at least give them enough rope to hang themselves with and see this all the way through.

In reality, it's not all that different from last season. We had this problem last year too. Hence all the 3TE sets etc.

I guess the bigger surprise to me is that Rice hasn't earned a larger role yet.

First round talent...

Never got too far in front of my ski's on Moore, but I definitely expected more than this after his productive SB showing... it looked like he was getting it at just the right time

But we disagree on Hardman, I'd take that guy back with loving arms right about now... Mahomes is somewhat kneecapped without that kind of speed at his disposal

For all of his faults, Hardman was twice the player Moore is... at least to this point

I'm tryna play nice, man...

well they never really tried to throw his way

that's what I was wondering, a lot of CB's play one side. Some line up against their best WR no matter what. I didn't know with the Jets and Sauce.

Hey, i loved me some Hardman. I was a Hardman defender from day 1, despite after 2 seasons realizing that he's never gonna be "Him". But that didn't mean Hardman didn't have value.

But the Chiefs have moved on. It's time to just let these current guys sink or swim.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Skyy Moore has now played in 20 regular games for the Chiefs. He doesn&#39;t have a catch in 8 of them.</p>&mdash; Carrington Harrison (@cdotharrison) <a href="https://twitter.com/cdotharrison/status/1708976608722174078?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 2, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

T minus how many games until Ross leapfrogs his snaps 2022 Pacheco style?

A lot of people brought up the CEH comparisons. While that's a concern, if his role is reduced to a less effective Micole gadget player that's vastly preferable to the 0 catch 0 yard statlines we're seeing in uh, nearly half of his games so far.

0 catches, zero yards on 59% of the snaps....that can't continue.

Not at all. He's only been on the field more because Toney is hurt and playing very little and Richie James is hurt and not playing. I'd much rather Rice be out there playing, but his recent up tick in usage is due to our #1 WR being injured all the time and our #4 guy being injured the last couple of weeks. Rice is behind Toney, Moore, MVS, James, and Watson. Moore, MVS, and Watson are all healthy and got more snaps than Rice on Sunday.

Watson - 43 snaps/61%
Moore - 41 snaps/59%
MVS - 38 snaps/54%
Rice - 32 snaps/46%
Toney - 17 snaps/24% (Hurt)

Once Toney maybe, hopefully gets healthy (doubtful) and James gets back to being healthy, then Rice will likely see more like 15%-25% of snaps. I hope it's not the case, because I think it's pretty clear that right now he's our best WR. He'll have some frustrating drops, but he will probably make up for it.

Hell Rice is our best WR when it comes to getting a 1st down.

Rice - 8
Watson - 5
Moore - 5
Toney - 4
MVS - 4
James - 0
Ross - 0

I think Rice is going to be a baller.

I agree. Get him out there and get him the ball.

I hate the whole "sit and learn" shit. You learn by doing.

You should probably tell Andy. Unbelievable that he's doing the wrong thing here.

Yes, he clearly is infallible.

I've sent multiple emails.

This is also such a bullshit response. What's the point of even being here discussing anything if that's your response? If whatever they do is correct and not worth discussing.....what's our purpose here?

Oh stuff it, jesus christ.

One can disagree with the regime on a chatboard, ace.

Or should we also keep sending Skyy Moore out there for 75% of the routes and using Clyde Edwards Helaire on outside zone runs?

Yeah, Pitt can kindly get ****ed with that nonsense.

Never understood this argument. We can love the hell out of Andy and veach while recognizing they’re not perfect. We had a year of info on skyy and yet made the mistake of planning around him being a primary target. We also sat on ceh way longer than we should have. I trust he will make the right call but he’s not infallible.

LMAO that's literally all Pitt Gorilla brings to the board, though. "Herp derp, ____ fan is dumb, herp derp"

I wonder if Moore’s low number of targets are a product of him being unable to get open or Pat not trusting him. If it’s him not getting open that is a big problem. Trust can be earned in time.

I think he struggles to get open while staying on time.

Just a complete layperson's view of things, but it's what I see.

Like I said above - the twitter thread where he jerks inside and foot fires before making his break outside had people swooning but that's not really a great route to be running in a timing offense. You took a false step to get your outside release and in so doing, pushed the timing off if that's a rhythm throw.

Now it was a backside throw so it really wasn't timing specific, but it's still the kind of route where you'd really prefer see him get that separation in a single movement. And that's how he'd have had to have done it on the out route he dicked up on Sunday because that WAS a front-side/timing route.

And low and behold, he didn't get much separation nor did he run a decent route.

It just looks more and more to me like he's simply not very good. He's a collection of mediocre traits that will make for a mediocre player that's exactly as good as the space Andy can create for him. And that's IF he stops getting lazy with his routes.

Appreciate that feedback. I need to start watching that with him.

Agreed. I just want to be clear that the thinking is that Andy is misusing Rice.

No.

My thinking is that if you're drafting a guy in the first or second round, they shouldn't need to "sit and learn" and soak up a contract year. Guys learn by getting on the field and if they can't get on the field early, don't draft them.

Now someone will throw out "But Mahomes"

There's a LOT of those sorts of "yOu ThInK YoU'Re BeTTeR ThaN ReID Do YOu?!" comments. Every thread, all the time. Same re Veach. It's dumb.

OOOOOH So some of you know better than Reid and Veach, huh?

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That's the one thing they do that annoys me to no end, if CEH had been a 5th round pick, he wouldn't even be on the team.

They are committed to giving CEH and Moore snaps because of draft position not what they do on the field.

Meh I don't agree.

CEH was down to 9% snaps this past week and I feel only played as much in the first few weeks because of Pacheco being a little banged up. Regardless of what people think of CEH being a wasted pick he is still a serviceable backup for Pacheco.

Moore, still young with lots of promise. Who is better than him on the roster at this point?

I think ceh gets snaps because he's bought and paid for. They could have cut him but it would cost cap space and you have to replace him. So they kept him for his final year because he knows the system and can soak up some snaps to keep the other two backs healthy for the homestretch.

Jerrick has clearly lost a step and Deneric did absolutely dick to earn a roster spot.

CEH is here because he's the 2nd best RB we've got.

Moore needs to use less energy celebrating after making a productive play for a first down.

He acts like he does not expect to make a better play later. Tone it down, dude.

Yeah, CEH is clearly just a here because of lack of better options. They wanna keep McKinnon healthy til late in the year and Pacheco can't take all the snaps.

So they'll keep trotting him out for his useless 4 snaps or carries per game.

The MEH thing, to me, comes down to a refusal to acknowledge that we aren't an RPO team anymore.

We used him because, rightly or wrongly, he was our best option for stretch read plays that are necessary if you're going to run RPOs. But we don't do that anymore.

So why we don't transition to a gap scheme or more inside zone with our running game is just beyond me. Because we can absolutely run inside with power.

And watching MEH take that swing pass last week that's 6 yards for any reasonably quick RB and turn it into a 1 yard gain by simply running in quicksand was all the proof you need that Clyde CANNOT run outside zone. And Pacheco's better used inside. Jet's looking slower.

So with this personnel, I just don't see cause for even having those in the playbook. They aren't setting up RPOs that we rarely use anymore. They're not well suited to our talent. They're just wasted downs.

But we don't seem to be willing to take them out of the playbook so if we're gonna run them, it seems they're content letting MEH absorb the bullet to set something up instead of Pop.

'absolutely dick' overstates it.

Absolutely dick probably keeps him on the roster.

Instead he was routinely and obviously overmatched. Like I said at the time, it was bad enough that I probably wouldn't have kept him on the PS. He didn't show anything.

Perine was the one that showed a bit, right?

Jeff Allen and Schwartz talked about it on twitter. The Chiefs always start the year with these running schemes that dont' work then eventually get to outside zone or man/gap stuff from under center etc.

Their OL is just perfectly built for it now. Pacheco has the speed to run outside zone. Just keep doing it.