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If it is the latter of the three, because it simply is not science on the most fundamental grounds. Not because their is a god or God involved, but because they cannot show proof for their arguments; which I may be mistaken, but that is one reason you call it 'faith' in the first place. Also, this would open up a pandoras box (lame cliche statement, but most fitting) of full out bullshit. Any one person would have grounds to argue that they had a right to learn whatever belief they so chose for that day. You also could not grade anything on the basis of it being scientifically proven or repeated through scienctific experiments because ID (as said before) has no proof other than what they already possess, ie) 'Irreduscibly complex objects'; that coincidentally can be explained by means of evolutionary biology. It would also slow our education and hamper our already weak system on the basis that things would always be tied up in debate because student A wants to learn biology through evolution, Student B wants to learn bio through ID, and Student C wants to learn bio from the FSM. You would have one teacher, 30 different theories, no grades, and no learning. We are already one of the most 'dumb' 1st world nations, this would just be the final nail. |
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The fuel that keeps fanning this fire is that there are too many uneducated people who are blindly following a "belief" based on almost NO research or reading of their own. They take someone elses words as gospel and leave it at that. THEN you have the OVER-educated know-it-alls who think that their opinions should NOT be questioned. The funny thing about these statements is that they equally apply whether your talking about darwinism OR creationism. Example: when Mel Gibson's "The Passion of the Christ" came out a few years ago I heard of some friends who refused to watch it because they felt it would try to "change their beliefs". If your faith or beliefs are so weak as to be easily influenced by a hollywood movie then you have problems. I for one believe in ID but I do NOT rule out the fact that there may still have been a sort of an evolution of some things over the years too.
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Scientifically: A Theory says that it's observable but not predictable. A Law says that it's both observable and predictable. Hence, the graduation from theory to law. An example of how a law may be wrong can be found in the Law of Thermodynamics. On earth, we have witnessed that matter cannot be made on-demand, instantaneously, without another external cause. Hence, we have a law that basically says: something cannot come from nothing. However, we have no idea if this holds true in all corners of the universe. We haven't even traveled to another planet. It could be that in the distant corner of the universe there is something that creates matter out of nothing and there we could discover 80 new elements. No one knows. So while something is "law" it doesn't mean it's 100% fact in the UNIVERSE but rather 100% on Earth. Likewise, scientific Theory doesn't mean that it's a "guess" like the regular use of theory does. Does that make sense? Quote:
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Critics are going to lash out at this movie on many different basis. First, it's intellectually dishonest for most of the reasons I posted for elvomito. Second, the film spreads many lies, which have been canvassed over and over. Third, if anyone understands the background of the film, they'll understand why the film should be canned already. Fourth, this new storm with expelling someone (scientist) from the Expelled screening (irony meter exploded) should have ushered in it's final blow. Quote:
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1) Misrepresenting science 2) Linking Evolution to Hitler/genocide (as if genocide wasn't present before Darwin) 3) Spreading lies about ID and the evidence for it. 4) Spreading lies about evolution and the evidence for it. 5) Cultivating an ignorant mass of people. Think of it as intellectual AIDS. 6) Giving Ben Stein any credibility at all. 7) Cultivating a culture of the dark age thinking. 8) Science can't put out an equal movie because it would be boring. It would be factual but no one would want to watch it. And we don't have Ben Stein :rolleyes:. So it makes it hard for a rebuttal in the same medium. There's more but essentially it will set us back. We cannot move forward until people accept it. It cripples everything. Quote:
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Out of curiosity, Big Rock, what evidence (and you can put it in PM if you don't want to turn this thread into a DC) do you have for ID or that convinced you of it? |
Video with Dawkins and Myers talking about the film and the incident:
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well run for the hills maw barker...before i call the Feds LMAO
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I believe God created evolution.
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I'm assuming you were asking ME this question since your quotes were taken from my posts...? Anyways I could be setting myself up but either way here is my answer: There are many reasons I believe in ID. First of all if you have faith in God and the bible it clearly states that God CREATED the heavens and the earth. Period. Next, if you look into ANY animal or plant or human you can see the complexity of how it works. For me, these things are WAY TOO complex to have just happened by chance. It's like taking the finest crafted watch and taking it completely apart and putting all the pieces into a box and then just shaking it up endlessly and hoping/expecting that eventually it will somehow end up being that same fine timepiece once again...all by chance. That's just my 2 cents. |
Irreducible complexity does not a compelling argument make. Bowener actually touched upon this a little, and there's plenty more on it here.
What you fail to understand about chance is that we're talking about spans of time that are downright inconceivable to humans. It's not at all shocking that somewhere in this unfathomably massive universe, at some point in an unfathomably massive amount of time, life has arisen and evolved. We just happened to be the who and where, or else, you know, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Even if you want to credit God with the initial creation (and hey, that's fine with me, as long as you don't try to pass off belief as science), there is such a preponderance of evidence supporting evolution (including a shitton -- that's a very scientific term, let me assure you -- of transitional fossils) that you have to either believe God (or the devil) planted all of it there -- including in our own DNA -- to fool us, or simply stick your fingers in your ears and cover your eyes to believe that evolution didn't occur. |
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In addition to Ultra Peanut's link, I should mention the Tiktaalik fossil discovery, which seems to be a link between fish and land animals.
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Faith and reason can form together to complete a whole truth. Without one, I believe you have an incomplete truth. We Christians believe in the Truth - as in the Father, the Christ, and the Holy Spirit. But we must recognize the truth that comes from our reason, our science, and our intellect. Bishop DiLorenzo of Richmond, chair of the Committee on Science and Human Values in a December 2004 letter sent to all U.S. bishops: "...Catholic schools should continue teaching evolution as a scientific theory backed by convincing evidence. . . . Students should be able to leave their biology classes, and their courses in religious instruction, with an integrated understanding of the means God chose to make us who we are." (National Catholic Reporter via wikipedia) I'm not at all saying that the only credible scientists are Christians. I don't believe that at all. I do feel though, that no Christian should see science/truth as something entirely opposing their beliefs, which I think we hear a lot of and assume to be the norm. |
"Debunked" is a good word. Because that's a denial stemming from a preconceived, preexisting agenda. Which is not a good thing, if we're still in the realm of science. Now, there's nothing wrong with skepticism, asking for valid evidence to support a theory, but refusing to believe something, or actively "debunking" it, simply because it threatens a certain philosophical worldview that an individual holds, can never and will never be "science".
That's not to say that scientists themselves aren't often guilty of this. It's still in many ways a tenured world, a world where many at the highest levels seem less interested in discovery and scrutiny than they are in maintaining their positions. From the outside, it's appears that it's often difficult to get recognition or even discussion of new ideas because they're contrary to current understanding. While this may sound like a commentary about ID and science's reaction, it certainly is not. ID is not science. It's the exact opposite of science, starting from a conclusion and ignoring the steps that have to be taken to honestly reach it. In the end, it's a blatant deception, a sham of science based on mythology, and not something that can ever be verified through observation. It would be just as valid for me to stand in front of a classroom and state that Atun created the universe out of the waters of Nu. By all means believe in creation if you want to believe in creation. Just don't let yourself fall into the trap, the lie, that ID is. Be honest and acknowledge that your view is shaped by faith, and it can't possibly be supported by real, hard science. Which is a perfectly fine thing. There's absolutely nothing wrong with faith. The fact is, science can't disprove it, either. That's the whole point of having it in the first place. |
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I am not against evolution, I am not against creationism. I find evidence that they probably were worked in the plan of the creator. I do not think that you can be a Christian and be against Creationism, at least not the Christian belief that I hold. |
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