Like I said in the spring: if Albert thinks the fans will all back him, he's wrong.

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showp...&postcount=738

Elbow.

The belief was that it was going to give out on him sooner or later. However, at this point they've pretty much decided that there's enough scar tissue around it that it's not inherently more likely to fail than it would've been had he never strained it to begin with.

There are, however, rumors of the possibility of it developing into an arthritic condition. Rest assured, we won't know anything about that now and the Pujols camp wouldn't ever let it out (but perhaps the Cardinals medical staff knows something we don't).

Then there are his constant nagging leg injuries.

Albert isn't a guy that's built to hold up extremely well. I keep coming back to Berkman; there's a very good chance Albert ages much like Lance did. That's a pretty scary thought for someone we're pondering giving away the farm for.

.

Ken_Rosenthal Ken Rosenthal

Source: #Cardinals' offer would have given Pujols about 10th-highest salary in game. Likely translates to $19M-$21M per. #MLB

Making him the 10th highest paid player in the league

I really doubt that was the other. The only people that know it are anyone who is the Cardinals organization, Albert's family and Lazano.

From Strauss's STLToday column:

While Cardinals chairman Bill DeWitt Jr. and general manager John Mozeliak declined to discuss specifics of the team’s initial offer, sources familiar with the process described the package’s total value at more than $200 million spread across a nine- or 10-year base. Once rejected, the deal took several other forms that involved shifting years and salary and apparently even an equity stake in the team.

Hmm. I still think they get a deal done.

I dont see it. When the Cards are adding team equity into the contracts they clearly do not have, or do not want to spend, the money to get the deal done. The Cards are going to have to fight for him in FA and if the best they are offering is 10th best paid player then Pujols might as well pack his bags and put his house on the market right now.

ROFL

:spock:

Albert is a work out machine-especially the legs, torso and back. Comparing him to Berkman is laughable.

i agree(kinda of).

both sides are taking a chance on what happens this season. his value could go up, or possibly go down(injury, age, wear & tear).

albert knows what he wants to be paid. the cardinals don't want to pay any more than what they have to.

imo, for the amount of $$ that will be put into this contract, it makes sense to wait the year out and negotiate a new one. i don't think the cardinals are showing ap any disrespect. if he wants to remain a cardinal and play on a competitive team, he should understand this.

again, i think he'll remain a cardinal. if not, i'll still be a cardinal fan. i've been following them since the early 60's. can't get it out of my blood now.
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For sure. I've loved the birds through fat and lean. I still have a fondness for Pedro Guerrero FFS. AP or no the birds on the bat is what counts to me.

yep...bottom line is i want a competitive team.
sure it was fun to watch mcgwire hit home runs in 1998, but the fact was the team finished something like 19 games out.
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I hope Dewitt and Co. didn't lowball Albert with a 19 mil/per contract offer. I hate that baseball players are so overpaid at the top level, but you have to be reasonable and at least put him near the top.

AP said this morning he wants to be a Cardinal for the rest of his career, we'll see if that includes a discount.

Offering the undisputed best player in the game an annual salary that isn't in the top 5 of the game is so ****ing ludicrously stupid it's beyond the scope of human imagination. Who in the Cardinals organization could possibly think this is a good idea? Who?

Lance Berkman was always a fat bastard. That's a horrible comp. Besides, Pujols has a very quiet and efficient swing, and he's a line drive hitter in a neutral park. Berkman relied on a short opp field porch and a soft power alley in a band box.

Berkman was also two inches shorter while carrying the same weight.

Pujols' body type is more similar to David Ortiz, but he's a much more complete hitter who doesn't have to cheat to pull everything, and he doesn't have the chronic knee trouble that Ortiz does.

The only lower body problem Pujols has had is plantar fasciitis.

Same here. I was a Cardinal fan long before Pujols was born and will be long after he's done playing. but, I've "fan" bonded with Pujols more than anyone since I've was rooting for Gibson and Brock. I'd be heartbroken to see him wearing the uniform of another team, especially the baby bear one.

yeah, he's said that a lot. we will see if he is a man of his word. $80 million is a lot of discount to give up to reach Stan the man love that lasts decades. But, its there for him to claim. think of it....Stan the man hasn't played for 46 years but he's still as revered as ever, my son got real excited when Stan the man was at the ball park. Pujols can be the 2000's Stan the man if he signs up for the lifetime contract and in what is widely considered the best baseball town in America.

If true, that is pathetic. A fireable offense. I just hope it doesn't poison the well or turn Pujols on the FO.

damn clayton that is some funny chit.ROFL

And the only knee problem Drew ever had was the same. Plantar fasciatis is some nasty stuff now, don't simply discount it. And while that may be the only lower body injury he's had, every year he ends up nursing a hamstring or calf or something. He simply has a very heavy lower body and over 160 games, it betrays him a bit. You can whistle past the graveyard if you'd like, but Pujols absolutely has a history of lingering lower body soreness.

And I'm not sure where this "Berkman is a fatass" narrative has come from:

2010 Berkman

http://www.examiner.com/images/blog/...e_Berkman3.jpg

2008 Berkman

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/si/2008/wri...rkmanBeck2.jpg

Young Berkman

http://jeffpearlman.com/wp-content/u...t1_berkman.jpg

Berkman's not a fat guy, not at all. I just don't see how anyone can be aghast by the comparison. Pujols and Berkman have similar body types in that they have a very heavy lower half. Berkman is a little heavier up top, but he's certainly not Prince Fielder. In fact, I think Ortiz has a much worse makeup than Berkman.

And to discount Berkman as just an Enron creation is blatant homerism from Cardinals fans that watched him kill us out there. To say he was some loft hitter that poked flyballs over the fence is unadulterated garbage. He was absolutely a line-drive hitter and one of the best pure hitters in the game during that time.

His line drive % from 2002 - 2008: 21.0, 20.8, 21.2, 22.9, 19.2, 17.9, 18.5
Alberts Ln Dr % from 2002 - 2008: 21.9, 22.5, 17.0, 20.0, 18.0, 18.6, 22.4

And remember, those years for AP were all his prime hitting years whereas the last 3 for Berkman are in his decline seasons. Albert's a slightly better LD hitter for the most part, but he's certainly not a runaway winner. Don't just throw out nonsense like "Pujols was a LD hitter and Berkman just hit it at short fences" without doing at least a little legwork.

Further, during Berkman's prime, he had reverse home/away splits on several occasions. In fact, from 2001 to 2008 (prime seasons), he had 4 seasons where his splits favored the home park and 4 where they favored his road numbers. He could handle any pitch you threw him during that time as well. Don't diminish Berkman's talent just because he killed us - he was a phenomenal hitter during his peak.

And it's completely fair to look at his decline and wonder if Pujols will follow a similar path.

BTW, Jimmy Ballgame retired.

It's a hell of a lot better idea than offering a guy that is going to be 32 when the contract starts $300 million.

It's rumored to be the 3rd highest valued package ever offered and contain an equity stake in ownership of the team after he retires. Yeah, what an asswipe offer that is.

Oh, and that was also based on a 10 year deal. The rumor was that the first package offered was something like 10 yrs, $225 million (hence him not being that high in the AAV). From there, the Cards tried to dial it down to 8 yrs, $200, etc...

The man is not 27 years old. He's a 32 year old first baseman with heavy legs. If you want to make a PR argument, fine, that's one I'll listen to. But there's absolutely no baseball argument to be made that Albert Pujols should get the highest AAV in the game for the next damn decade. It's just a stupendously stupid baseball decision at that point.

We made the playoffs 1 time in the last 4 years with Albert at 1b. Something tells me we can manage that without him.

DJ,

I like you, but I'm having a really hard time keeping track of where you stand on the Pujols saga given that you wanted to get rid of him, then thought that given Mozeliak's incompetence we should keep him and pay him what it takes, and now are fine with letting him go again.

It's a Hootiean display of flip flopping.

Everyone knows that you will be overpaying Pujols in the last 5 years of the contract. That's not the issue here. The issue is that the man has earned that money relative to his performance on the field and the compensation of his peers, of whom he really has none.

We've banked a remarkable surplus in value over the last several seasons, and while I can understand holding onto that in some situations, for iconic players, they deserve to get that back.

8/$200 is a ridiculous offer. Look, the market has been set. If Rodriguez is worth 10/275, even with a Yankees tax, then Pujols is worth 10/300.

You seemed to have no problem with giving him 30 MM per year when you responded to my earlier post about payroll dispersion in lieu of the expiring Carpenter and Berkman contracts. What gives?

FWIW,

The reason why I brought up Ortiz is that he actually has a worse makeup and he still remains a viable hitter with numerous injuries (wrist and knee) and other limitations.

My position has been three-fold (and I understand the confusion).

1) That Moe should've done this prior to the Holliday extension and all of this gets done for less than $25 million/season, IMO.

2) That barring that, I think the owners should've sucked it up and paid the extra money. They should've given him about $27.5 over 8 and raised payroll by $10 million. That increase should not have been met with an increase in ticket prices and should've been considered a "Pujols-Tax" paid by the owners as a payback to the fans for packing the seats and approving the stadium.

From there, they should've built the team as though Pujols has a $17 million 'payroll' figure as opposed to a $27 million one. That puts that 'tax' on them and ensures that the Cardinals remain competitive.

That's the PR argument I'm referring to. I absolutely understand that position and it's the one I'd have preferred. In the 'Berkman/Carpenter' response, I qualified my whole argument by saying that "If the owners make the right decision and raise payroll...." then it's easy to incorporate him into their budget.

3) That if the owners refuse to make the PR conscious decision and instead approach it from a purely baseball perspective, not signing Albert to that deal is the right decision. That contract is a poor baseball decision; he's simply not going to live up to it. If they believe they can take that money and build a better ballclub with it, I absolutely respect that and am fine with it. If, however, they take that money and pocket it in lieu of building the ballclub, I'm gonna be mighty pissed off.

With regards to 3), what about DeWitt's past makes you think that he won't pocket it?

ROFL yep

Very little, unfortunately.

And with Edmonds retiring today, I have one less thing to look forward to this season.

I just can't get excited about baseball this spring.

WTF?! Jimmy retired? That SUCKS A FAT COCK

Doesn't suprise me. As soon as Edmonds signed that deal I kept saying he only signed it to retire a Cardinal.

I think he could have beaten out Jay because Tony tends to have man crushes on old players that are past their prime.

Tony also shit all over Edmonds after they didn't resign him.

I don't think that was his sole purpose. I think he did it thinking his foot would come around and he'd have a crack at 400 HRs.

But the foot never healed and his Achilles is evidently barking. So he shut down the comeback.

That just blows, IMO. I really really wanted a chance to see him in the BOTB one more time. I think he was under-appreciated in his time here and I wish the Cardinal Nation would've had another chance to show him how much they appreciate what he did for some truly special ballclubs.

This offseason has sucked so hard.

If Jimmy made the roster, I wouldn't have been pissed. He hit okay last year. Now, if Berkman butchers the OF badly, I'm going to be pissed.

c'mon now...lohse says he's back.:( so we've got that going for us.
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My point all along. Yes, on the back end we will be playing Pujols as if he has a legitamate shot at a triple crown, when its obvious that history says age will catch up to him by then. but there is more to the issue than on the field production. There could easily be a "Pujols " tax on seats no one is gonna bitch about and if he's hitting .280 and 15-20 dingers people will still come out to the ball park to see the great Albert Pujols in person, even if its not in his prime. Just to see if he can rekindle the moments we all saw when he was in his prime.

So you guys happy with this TR lineup?

Theriot
Rasmus
Pujols
Holliday
Berkman
Molina
Freese
Pitcher
Shumaker

Who would bat 2nd? Rasmus is just to have cut down on his strikeouts if he bats 2nd.

Bat Berkman 2nd and Rasmus 5th. Berkman does a good job of drawing walks.

IMO, you should have as big of a gap between Molina and the pitcher as possible. Batting the pitcher 8th is just stupidity.

Not my lineup, Tonys. I'd bat berkman 2nd too for the higher on base %. Supposedly Tony is thinking rasmus in the 2nd hole.

By that time he will be breaking all types of all-time marks. Possibly most of the significant ones. People will come in droves to see him hit his 800th

Tony is also the dumbest mother****er in baseball.

According to Joe Strauss - - Waino is gonna be out for the season - TJ surgery on an elbow...Don't have a link...came from a twitter and another Cardinal message board.

^#%&&*(&*(()^#@!!!!

JUPITER, Fla. -- St. Louis Cardinals ace Adam Wainwright injured his elbow Monday and is returning to St. Louis to have it examined by team doctors.

General manager John Mozeliak said Wednesday that "things do not look encouraging" for the 2010 Cy Young Award runner-up, based on the initial evaluation by the training staff, and believed it is a "significant injury."

He said the right-hander injured his elbow in Monday's bullpen session.

"There's a problem with the ligament," Mozeliak said, according to the New York Daily News. "But it doesn't look good."

An update is expected Wednesday afternoon.

Wainwright went 20-11 with a 2.42 ERA in 2010, finishing second in the Cy Young Award balloting to Philadelphia's Roy Halladay.

He won his 19th and 20th games while nursing a right forearm strain hurt in a freak accident at home. He was shut down for the rest of the season, based on the recommendation of the team doctor.

An MRI exam in late September showed a strained muscle in his forearm and inflammation near the elbow. At the time, the Cardinals believed Wainwright would be fine with rest, and the pitcher said the elbow ligament was not an issue.

Wainwright said he had slept on the arm earlier in September, woke up, found the arm numb and flung it aside instead of waiting for feeling to return.

In 2009, Wainwright led the NL in wins (19), innings (233) and starts (34), winning a Gold Glove while finishing third in the Cy Young voting.

Information from The Associated Press was used in this report.

And the hits just keep on coming. :facepalm:

:cuss: :banghead: :deevee:

this is the difference between contending and finishing well behind the Reds and Brewers...10 games in the W column, at least.

Holy ****ing shit.

I hate being right, this season has felt like it was going to be a trainwreck with the Pujols contract bullshit and now it is. Maybe now they'll actually let the kids play since the excuse of we're contending is gone.

Well, so much for baseball season.

This has been such a horrible ****ing sports calendar year it's almost unimaginable.

Pujols may be leaving
Waino blows out his elbow
Gabbert leaves Mizzou
Aldon leaves Mizzou
Mitchell ends up at North Texas
The basketball team underperforms
The Chiefs get ****ing piss pounded in the last regular season game and the playoff game.

Welcome to the life of a Royals fan.

Yay! Now we can all be glad that Mo stood pat with crappy 4,5 spots in the rotation. I predict Lohse loses every game he pitches this year where the team scores less than 3

Damn. Sorry fellas. This is shit luck.

Way to go out on a limb there chief.

Suck a cock there chief

Yeah guys, most teams number 4 starters win a shit ton of games with no run support, didn't you know that?

One, maybe two would be great, he was a known liability going in with no solution for number 5. Now they have to count on him to be 3. If a major leaguer can't win a handful with less than 3 runs support why is he still pitching?

Crazy year for the Cards.

Why are you pretending to have a clue?

All aboard the Shelby Miller wagon.

Yeah, expecting a major league starter to pitch like one means I dont have a clue, I'm sure you can drop your vast knowledge on me as to why that is.

Not till June 2012. We would then control him through 2019.

True. Anyways, I'm not worried yet about the season. Cards can still win the div and it sounds as if the Cards would trade for a SP if they were close to lead in the Central, according to Strauss.

There ain't no silver lining in this that's for sure. But maybe someone will step up. That's how we won the world series in 2006. Who could have seen Reyes and weaver would step up? We don't win without them and no one expected them to pitch lights out before the playoffs. Is there someone out there to repeat that?

Yep. His name is Lance Lynn.

That's pretty optimistic for a guy who gave up 21 dingers in Memphis last year.

Weaver was picked out of the trash. Reyes had talent but had never put it all together and it was a one time event.

We don't need to find a #1 or we don't stand a chance. What has to happen is batters need to step up. We need to find some underperforming/undiscovered pitching. Duncan has done it many times in the past . He needs to pull out some pitching magic again.

Oh, ****. I just heard about Wainwright. It's always a shame, for everyone, when a Cy Young-caliber pitcher gets a season-ending injury. I'm so sorry for you guys.

thanks dude. It's a punch in the gut, a solid body blow but not a kill shot. We just need some major Duncan mojo rope a dope and we need it now.

Kill shot is if Carp goes on the DL.

yep, or Pujols goes down. Thats it, fold up the tent and move on.

Millwood is the exact kind of guy Duncan has worked wonders on in the past. He'll be cheap. It's spring training, so no "real" games blown if he sucks. Seems to be a good fit for everyone.

This is well said, Reaper. As a baseball fan, I enjoy watching excellence, no matter the uniform.

I am sorry you guys have to feel like I do, and the fellow Royals fans on the board. It sucks when baseball is over before it begins. Hopefully a couple of guys will step up and make it a season for the Red Birds. I don't actively cheer for them like I do the Mariners, and Royals, but I've always liked them.

He is defintely a top 5 pitcher on anyones list. everyone always likes to see the best battle the best in their profession. It seemed that Pujols and Grienke never got to face each other. I guess I'll get a chance this year to see that match up.

hey dude you interest in some Griffey Jr. memorbilia?

If you still have it when I'm gainfully employed again and have things caught up, I absolutely would be. He was my hero growing up, and the only guy (living, RIP DT) that still gives me goosebumps when I watch highlights of him.

hey man hit me up on facebool and lets talk sometime. I'd like someone who will appreciate the memorbilia to have it. Can't take everything with me when I move.

Thi was admittedly a jackass type reaction to outside factors not involving anything here, my bad

Yeah, I was being kind of a dick too so my bad as well. No harm no foul