Originally Posted by unlurking (Post 8298450)

Which was exactly my point. Employees "suspected" and "feared" they were being monitored. The Chiefs "denied" that they were recording phone calls.

Now, do you really think there were "bugs" in the hallways and conference rooms and that the team monitored phone conversations?

Originally Posted by Direckshun (Post 8298454)

I don't know who said it earlier in this thread, but basically Clark Hunt has structured this organization to abide by the rules and restrictions of a Fortune 500 company.

I do not work for a Fortune 500 company, but I work for a company that is in the same field as many of the companies that are.

It's highly routine for employees to be disciplined or spoken with about Facebook posts and texting former employees. The entire workplace has security cameras, and management routinely reviews the cameras and irregularly disciplines employees for not doing their jobs if/when they believe that's the case. Inane disciplines like the candy wrapper happen, for good reason (and sometimes not-so-good). Everybody below a certain rung of power is completely kept in the dark. Any instances where a superior gets wind of someone below them shopping around for new jobs is met with a face-to-face meeting with that employee.

Etc.

It sounds restrictive, and it is. But there are some good reasons for the company to operate that way (for instance, the Chiefs is probably spy-proof). Some of the reasons are just paranoia and power-tripping, which is of course the nature of the game.

I believe every word of the article.

The truth is, we want our good ol' Kansas City Chiefs to be run like a mom-and-pop store. In some ways, like PR and employee satisfaction, that's certainly preferable. But the way the Chiefs run their show now is similar to a lot of large corporations who do this routinely for competitive advantage.

Combine Clark's management style with Pioli's Patriot Way and this is what you get. It's logical that there's going to be a shit ton of turnover and people put in really shitty situations because for decades, the Chiefs were run completely differently.

I'm not excusing it, just explaining it.

Originally Posted by Direckshun (Post 8298521)

You are adorable.

Originally Posted by The Bad Guy (Post 8298560)

You're right. People should live in fear for their jobs because they parked in the wrong spot overnight.

I understand how corporate America works. I also understand the work environment created by being a micro-managing piggybacker like Pioli is one that will never, ever translate into success.

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 (Post 8298554)

I work for a Fortune 500 company. Everybody knows they're being monitored. We're trained every day to be careful about what we e-mail, facebook about, etc... We all know that there is somebody always watching and that every word I e-mail about, talk about, etc... becomes discoverable. If someone accidentally or purposefully sends an e-mail with sensitive information, they are drilled to the nth degree, because they are that careful. And it should be that way. I don't care that I'm being monitored, but never do I feel like my privacy is being invaded. And they're not going to bother me about something petty. Look, we all know that when we're on company territory, I can't just write anything on my computer. I can't just steal stuff on company property knowing there are cameras around.

I can assure you that the environment painted in this picture is different from anything I've seen. And again, it's not about the aggressive accountability. I don't care about the gum wrapper example--I think that's a great thing. I think what is unusual in this instance is the extent of privacy monitoring and the culture that is built around enormous distrust of each other. Now, Apple is one culture where there is a lot more lockdown on information sharing, but to my knowledge, Apple doesn't come close to the kind of environment fostered in the story above. Because this isn't just about business. This isn't just about protecting secrets. This is about an abuse of power to micro-manage to every last detail, even stuff that doesn't really affect the business.

So do Fortune 500 companies do this? Probably. The good ones? Not to my knowledge.

Originally Posted by Direckshun (Post 8298574)

I'm saying I agree with you, but Clark Hunt was schooled by Goldman Sachs.

Think back to the Great Recession of 2008/09. That occured precisely because companies like GS found a way to make an unbelievable amount of money in ways that directly contributed to an economy that ****ed over tens of millions of innocent people.

So let's be realistic.

Originally Posted by DRU (Post 8298487)

That's a direct quote that would lead one to believe you agree with my opinion on this whole thing. See how easy that was?

Originally Posted by Direckshun (Post 8298563)

Amazing how the level of conversation elevates the second the KC press churns out a really great story, isn't it.

Let all reporters follow the way of Babb going forward.

After a story like this, I have a feeling it may be a while before somebody does.

In my company, management would be finding a way to fire somebody right now if they could establish reasonable proof they contributed to the story.

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 (Post 8298609)

How in the world did you come to that?

Deny any of these things:
1) The majority of the accusations in the piece were allowed a counter-response, whether from Hunt, Pioli, etc...
2) The Chiefs were reached out to and given plenty of time to offer their input. The man being accused, Pioli, for some dumb reason, chose not to participate
3) While the story slightly skews to the negative, there is probably a good 60/40 balance between negative/positive, which is a hell of a lot better than many media outlets, which usually go 100/0

So... other than the fact that my entire post talks about how this wasn't your typical sensationalistic piece.... I guess you only read what you want to read.

Originally Posted by Laz (Post 8298611)

great example of how bullshit gets blown out of proportion.

Almost every single person declaring Pioli an evil dictator the likes of Hitler, would change their mind completely if Pioli cut Cassel and traded up for Luck. ROFL

the QB position has nothing to do with the rumor-filled POS article and yet they are link because people are pissed as hell that Cassel is our QB. Some people declared war on Pioli the moment he got Cassel and passed on Sanchez.

kind of like how nobody gave a shit about whether Baldwin started/caused the fight that got his hand hurt. They hate Jones and think Baldwin has potentialm so Jones was in the wrong.

It's some seriously silly shit.

Originally Posted by Laz (Post 8298611)

great example of how bullshit gets blown out of proportion.

Almost every single person declaring Pioli an evil dictator the likes of Hitler, would change their mind completely if Pioli cut Cassel and traded up for Luck. ROFL

the QB position has nothing to do with the rumor-filled POS article and yet they are link because people are pissed as hell that Cassel is our QB. Some people declared war on Pioli the moment he got Cassel and passed on Sanchez.

kind of like how nobody gave a shit about whether Baldwin started/caused the fight that got his hand hurt. They hate Jones and think Baldwin has potentialm so Jones was in the wrong.

It's some seriously silly shit.

Originally Posted by Laz (Post 8298611)

great example of how bullshit gets blown out of proportion.

Almost every single person declaring Pioli an evil dictator the likes of Hitler, would change their mind completely if Pioli cut Cassel and traded up for Luck. ROFL

the QB position has nothing to do with the rumor-filled POS article and yet they are link because people are pissed as hell that Cassel is our QB. Some people declared war on Pioli the moment he got Cassel and passed on Sanchez.

kind of like how nobody gave a shit about whether Baldwin started/caused the fight that got his hand hurt. They hate Jones and think Baldwin has potentialm so Jones was in the wrong.

It's some seriously silly shit.

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 (Post 8298292)

Wow, so we should throw out any case where there is strong eyewitness testimony? You know... because we're relying on people's word. Again, you don't look at these as facts. You look at them as patterns. And there is a lot of both in this article and everything we already know.

I don't think anyone really believes Haley's cell phone was tampered with. The problem was that the organization drove him to that level of paranoia. I imagine that paranoia stemmed from him wondering how private information became discovered. What's the pattern? We know that the Chiefs were so invasive of his private life that they were calling in radio shows leaking out that Haley was going to a Lil Wayne concert and having pizza with his family. We saw multiple sources claiming that office phone, e-mail, and internet records were not just monitored, but heavily monitored. We heard a story about Denny Thum having months of phone records scrutinized. We know that Pioli has invaded people's privacy in the past. The pattern suggests that this paranoia is very real, that their communications within Arrowhead are not only heavily monitored, but acted upon. And by the way, he's the one who built the culture around Spygate--you don't think that is a pretty damning piece of evidence that this organization might go beyond the lengths of what is ethical to invade associates' privacy? Again, there is a lot of legal area for companies to invade your privacy by monitoring communications. But this is the first I've heard of a company building a system around stretching every boundary they can.

What patterns do we see of a systematic problem? We heard a story that lots of people are denied access to certain floors (I doubt that's made up). We've heard a heavy pattern of stories in this article and multiple others that seem to show that Pioli most definitely has a big ego (the courier van, the temperature of his office, calling him by his first name--that's not details, that's just pettiness). The claim that the Chiefs all draw their shades down is very real... you can have an opinion, if you choose, as to whether that's good or bad. Same with the gum wrapper--that was very real. The fact that co-workers from different departments have to go to great lengths to hide the fact that they're going to lunch together... that appears to be true too.

And, again... I can guarantee that the age discrimination is only going to make this whole thing worse.

Originally Posted by JohnnyHammersticks (Post 8298674)

I would go through a year of kickboxing training just to have one opportunity at wheel-kicking Scott Pioli's huge, bald head.

You're supposed to be running a pro football team Pioli, not the ****ing CIA. Maybe if he'd spend more time evaluating talent and less time evaluating gum wrappers--the Chiefs would have drafted Yates in the 5th round and had a 3rd-string QB who they could actually put on the field instead of one who--in their own words--wasn't ready.

What an insecure little stupid man Pioli is. The egomaniac persona is just that--a persona. In reality this little insecure man probably looks at himself in the mirror and despises what he sees (while wishing he had hair). Well join the club Scott--because most of us despise you too.

Originally Posted by FringeNC (Post 8298657)

For the most part, I agree with this. However, do you really think this type of commitment to secrecy is going to be the factor that leads to playoff success? I don't give a **** if Pioli is prick, but I do care if doesn't have his priorities straight. For me, reading this article lowered my opinion of Pioli's competence.

Originally Posted by FringeNC (Post 8298657)

For the most part, I agree with this. However, do you really think this type of commitment to secrecy is going to be the factor that leads to playoff success? I don't give a **** if Pioli is prick, but I do care if doesn't have his priorities straight. For me, reading this article lowered my opinion of Pioli's competence.

Originally Posted by Laz (Post 8298735)

no doubt, i worry that Pioli is going to have to fail in KC before he learns to be more flexible about stuff. But this article is complete crap.

I'm far more worried about Pioli's reluctance to 'go big' and his belief that free agency is fool's gold. Also worry about his seeming dedication to Cassel ... although this might be completely in my head. Pioli might be ready to move on and i just don't know it.

Originally Posted by Laz (Post 8298735)

no doubt, i worry that Pioli is going to have to fail in KC before he learns to be more flexible about stuff. But this article is complete crap.

I'm far more worried about Pioli's reluctance to 'go big' and his belief that free agency is fool's gold. Also worry about his seeming dedication to Cassel ... although this might be completely in my head. Pioli might be ready to move on and i just don't know it.

Originally Posted by notorious (Post 8298807)

Let's hope we are all wrong about him.

Originally Posted by DRU (Post 8298717)

God you guys are making way too big a deal out of this wrapper thing. PIOLI ISN'T THE ONLY ONE IN BUSINESS WHO USES THIS AS AN EXAMPLE WITHIN A WORKPLACE. I've seen it on numerous occasions. It's just a simple tool to spark conversation and prove a point about overlooking details in the work place.

He's not scouring the complex for candy wrappers, and if you really think that, you're a shining example of ignorance.

Originally Posted by Okie_Apparition (Post 8298874)

...I'm at a loss for words to discribe the reerunedness

Originally Posted by donkhater (Post 8298821)

See, the whole FA thing is something I don't get. The Patriots first SB run with Brady was with a LOT of low level free agents. He also was around when they went after people like Dillon, Moss, Welker, Harrison and Seau.

Originally Posted by Laz (Post 8298697)

so your basic argument is that with this much smoke there has to be a fire somewhere.

and

Pioli is at least guilty of creating a hostile work environment because he pissed off people enough for them to say something, even if that something is just speculative bullshit?


:facepalm:

Originally Posted by gblowfish (Post 8299183)

Dear Formerly Greatest Fans in the NFL:

Miss me yet?

Affectionately,
Carl "Delano" Peterson

P.S.:
Go Fish!

Originally Posted by 110010x (Post 8299179)

Pioli sounds like an asshole of a manager to work with.

Originally Posted by DRU (Post 8298622)

You're just further proving my point. I chose not to include all these additional facts that you quoted in my quick example. I took the one thing you said that looked like you agreed with me and posted that as your direct quote.

That's exactly what the media does, is all I'm saying. I'm not saying that as a direct attack on Babb or anything like that. He's obviously done a good job of stirring up a lot of conversation about a particular topic.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I learned a few years ago to never completely trust anything that comes from the media. They can make things look however they want, and they do exactly that.

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 (Post 8298292)

I don't think anyone really believes Haley's cell phone was tampered with. The problem was that the organization drove him to that level of paranoia. I imagine that paranoia stemmed from him wondering how private information became discovered. What's the pattern? We know that the Chiefs were so invasive of his private life that they were calling in radio shows leaking out that Haley was going to a Lil Wayne concert and having pizza with his family.

Originally Posted by donkhater (Post 8299163)

An excerpt from 'War Room' that might put some perspective on this article:

...At one point, Pioli had to do a complicated verbal tiptoe. He realized how much the Chiefs meant to the Hunts, and he had obviously been awed by Lamar Hunt, but he needed to address a few things with the organization without coming off as disrespectful. He wanted to investigate why there had been a twenty-two-year gap between division titles, 1971 to 1993, and he wanted to understand why there was a perception of a Chiefs juggernaut, as recently as the late 1990s, when in reality there had been just three playoff wins in the previous twenty years. He wondered if the problem wasn't just on the field.

"There's this living, breathing dysfunction with football organizations," he said, "and it pits lifetime employees vs. temporary employees. It's insane. You need the help of all these people to do the job well. It's not just players. It's equipment people, the grounds crew, community relations, marketing..."

Originally Posted by ChiefsCountry (Post 8299850)

Hey stupid **** Pioli you want to know the reason for those gaps, its not because of secertarity or marketing people having their windows open or the janitors or the security personal or the office people being scared of their jobs. Its dumbass GMs like you who have brought in shitty QBs like Matt Cassel. Thats the ****ing reason you worthless POS.

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 (Post 8299673)

No, you are absolutely using this as a direct attack on Babb. You are trying to discredit his piece simply because it has a conclusion you don't agree with. You even suggested that he wrote this piece because he hates Pioli, as if this was some kind of a vendetta.

He starts with the hypothesis that Pioli is leading a dysfunctional organization. He surrounds that hypothesis with facts and stories that he believes supports his case, and those are based on facts/stories collected from over 2 dozen sources. And then in most of those accusations, he provides a counter-response from Mark Donovan or Ray Farmer or someone else in the organization. Of course he's going to pick out quotes/statements that are most interesting. But it's not like he's twisting their words. All those quotes are fair and, my guess is, when they read this, they're not going to complain that Babb somehow misrepresented them. The quotes seem accurate and fair.

So again, I don't understand your beef. Considering the nature of the subject, this seems to be a very fair and accurate article.

Originally Posted by ChiefsCountry (Post 8299850)

Hey stupid **** Pioli you want to know the reason for those gaps, its not because of secertarity or marketing people having their windows open or the janitors or the security personal or the office people being scared of their jobs. Its dumbass GMs like you who have brought in shitty QBs like Matt Cassel. Thats the ****ing reason you worthless POS.

Originally Posted by DRU (Post 8299918)

I did make a comment that he hates Pioli, and that was a stupid comment. I don't know his personal feelings about anybody, so that was a lame comment to make.

The point I'm really trying to make, though, and I still stand by, is that Babb is making something out of nothing because all he had was nothing and he needed something, so he created it with whatever data and information he could dig up, just like all media does when it's got nothing.

The simple fact of the matter is if it wasn't for Matt Cassel nobody would give a shit about any of this. That situation, though, is just fueling the fire for articles like this when they really don't have anything to do with each other.

Originally Posted by Mojo Jojo (Post 8300046)

Not true at all...I have two clients who won't be spending major money because of the way Pioli has treated in house people and sponsors.

Originally Posted by Brock (Post 8299704)

LMAO Yeah, either that or Haley is a slightly unbalanced person who thinks the world is out to get him.

Originally Posted by Laz (Post 8298971)

the key is 'low level' free agents

Pioli has no problem going to cheaper guys in FA. He takes a long term, slow build attitude about building a team.

people just don't have the patience for it.

Originally Posted by htismaqe (Post 8300065)

Because he handed the keys and a $60M check to a shit QB solely because he was one of his Patriot "boys".

He professes to want to build this team slowly, through the draft, and then makes THE biggest "win now" knee-jerk move you can make, a the most important position on the field.

People are right to not have any patience. He's talking out of both sides of his mouth.

Originally Posted by Omega (Post 8300054)

Jeez. How can Clark stand by this guy?

Seems like he's on a power trip gone wrong.

Originally Posted by Mojo Jojo (Post 8300046)

Not true at all...I have two clients who won't be spending major money because of the way Pioli has treated in house people and sponsors. Now who do you think is going to pick up the tab for that lost revenue?

Originally Posted by DRU (Post 8300101)

The NFL brings huge benefits to business, though, so I doubt it'll do much damage, and they'll fill their spots pretty quickly. Especially if they come out and start this next season off well, no matter who our QB is.

Originally Posted by htismaqe (Post 8300065)

Because he handed the keys and a $60M check to a shit QB solely because he was one of his Patriot "boys".

He professes to want to build this team slowly, through the draft, and then makes THE biggest "win now" knee-jerk move you can make, a the most important position on the field.

People are right to not have any patience. He's talking out of both sides of his mouth.

Originally Posted by Laz (Post 8300279)

once again ... this entire thread is bullshit

why not just make another thread saying 'Cassel sucks ... Damnit Pioli!!! :cuss: '

because that is the only truth about it.

this is about Cassel ... nothing else

since when did you become such a crying little bitch?

Originally Posted by Laz (Post 8300279)

once again ... this entire thread is bullshit

why not just make another thread saying 'Cassel sucks ... Damnit Pioli!!! :cuss: '

because that is the only truth about it.

this is about Cassel ... nothing else

since when did you become such a crying little bitch?

Originally Posted by O.city (Post 8300242)

I really think what Orton did the last three games have opened the eyes of alot of people here in KC, fan wise.

Originally Posted by Omega (Post 8300321)

The Jackson pick is still an issue, because he's overpaid, and not an impact player.

Originally Posted by Messier (Post 8300351)

Yeah but he's a quality starter. It was and could've been a more Casselish issue.

Originally Posted by O.city (Post 8300411)

Here is my biggest problem with most GMs these days.


They get hired by a struggling franchise that just fired their GM. They come from a successful franchise where they likely weren't the GM, but think that they played a big part in the success. They immediately try to imitate the processes that went on in the previous job.

I realize you do what you are comfortable with, but at some point you have to do your own thing. Right?

Originally Posted by htismaqe (Post 8300417)

Thomas Dmitroff doesn't appear to have too many problems doing things his own way...

Originally Posted by htismaqe (Post 8300379)

Here's the thing - Cassel is just a symptom.

The guy makes them lock the doors to the media room - reporters have to have an escort to go to the bathroom. He makes staff members with offices that face the field pull their blinds.

All of this non-football stuff is VERY important, especially when you add it to moves like Cassel and Jackson, the dysfunctional relationship with HIS first HC hire, and all of the other actual football moves.

There's mounting evidence to suggest the guy doesn't know what it takes to build a winning franchise.

Originally Posted by DRU (Post 8300416)

This whole thing is basically a political argument, and just like politics, it will never be won by either side.

I can't wait until we start receiving information about who our OC will be, what changes we might make in free agency, draft speculation as the draft gets closer, etc. so we can start talking about the fun stuff again.

Originally Posted by htismaqe (Post 8300417)

Thomas Dmitroff doesn't appear to have too many problems doing things his own way...

Originally Posted by Messier (Post 8300422)

He might not. I'd say he's got three more years to prove otherwise, not for most here, but for Hunt.

The hard thing is what if the team goes 10-6 or 11-5 or something next year, wins the division, then a couple of 8-8 type seasons under Crennel? I say Hunt still would drop Pioli.

Originally Posted by htismaqe (Post 8300424)

What if we hire some Patriot position coach, sign 2 or 3 no-name FAs like last year, and approach the draft like 2009?

Nothing about this is fun right now.

Originally Posted by O.city (Post 8300430)

At this point, htis, what would change your opinion of Pioli?

If we bring in Clements as OC, make some big free agency splashes and have a good draft?

Originally Posted by htismaqe (Post 8300424)

What if we hire some Patriot position coach, sign 2 or 3 no-name FAs like last year, and approach the draft like 2009?

Nothing about this is fun right now.

Originally Posted by DRU (Post 8300454)

What if we hire some exciting name for OC that every here loves, pick up a solid right tackle in free agency, re-sign carr and bowe, and bring in a QB that will actually beat Cassel in a straight up competition no matter where he comes from?

None of know what's going to happen, so we're focusing on this kinda crap. It's sad, really.

Originally Posted by DRU (Post 8300454)

What if we hire some exciting name for OC that every here loves, pick up a solid right tackle in free agency, re-sign carr and bowe, and bring in a QB that will actually beat Cassel in a straight up competition no matter where he comes from?

None of know what's going to happen, so we're focusing on this kinda crap. It's sad, really.

Originally Posted by DRU (Post 8300454)

What if we hire some exciting name for OC that every here loves, pick up a solid right tackle in free agency, re-sign carr and bowe, and bring in a QB that will actually beat Cassel in a straight up competition no matter where he comes from?

None of know what's going to happen, so we're focusing on this kinda crap. It's sad, really.

Originally Posted by Messier (Post 8300313)

It use to be Cassel and Jackson, but Jackson doesn't seem like such a bust, so now it's just Cassel.

Originally Posted by The Bad Guy (Post 8300481)

Yeah, that's all great to think about.

I think about winning the lottery, and retiring at 32, but much like your hopes, mine aren't coming true either.

We're focusing on these things because this organization is garbage, run by inept assholes.

Originally Posted by Laz (Post 8300506)

i know ... until the Chiefs win in the playoffs and gives them no choice or Cassel is gone it will be one lame ass reason after another.

Originally Posted by htismaqe (Post 8300504)

We don't know what's going to happen, no.

But we do have past history to draw upon.

He hired Haley, who worked for Parcells. He hired Weis. He hired Crennel and then promoted him. Right now I see ZERO reason to hope that he hires some exciting name for OC. Past history suggests he's going to hire some Patriot/Parcells cast-off.