you arent actually offering anything.

you dont own a business anymore remember?


and actually you have said multiple times that you mark up the labor times.

No I do not. But I cant tell you how many shop owners have told me to do so. I just dont think its right, there are plenty of successful guys who do.

The first shop owner that told me about it, my response was, "I didnt know there was a gouge button." He wasnt to happy with me, hehe.

and 10 shops in a town that has less that 3000 residents is a pretty crowded marketplace

you're one of the few, just about every place I've been does.

Take tires, some places charge for shop supplies, others for disposal, some for mounting, some for stems. They're all a way to confuse the customer into thinking their pricing is better. Unethical - no....it's business. It sucks for the customer, but that is on us to be informed and run the numbers.

thanks. i agree with you

what Exoter is doing IMHO is no different than SAUTO not having shop fees.

Say SAUTO and Shop X both charge $85/hr. SAUTO charges only actual misc. materials, and SHOP X charges 10% for shop fees.

Is that unethical? No. It's a business model. It's no different than an airline charging for baggage.

What is SAUTO charges $85/hr and book times and Shop X charges $93 but quotes book times less 10%?

Is THAT unethical?

All that a customer should pay attention to the bottom line price and the shop's reputation for quality and service.

Most people aren't "qualified" to do most jobs. Sauto isn't qualified for 1/10th the stuff I am, but here he is barking up my tree looking for a biscuit.

Every shop is different, in all honesty, my hours were probably in the bottom third of the shops in the area. So I adjusted my labor hour to compensate so I wasn't flooded 24/7/365

I never failed at any business, we closed down or sold our business to pursue a higher paying, less hour intensive career. Where I get paid three times as much for half the work.


Running a profitable business is not a failure, selling your business to a larger company, is not a failure.

Those are wins, you moron.

I don't charge for shop supplies, I charge for disposal if I need it though.

I've lived in Olathe all of my life, I still keep in contact with my customers on a daily basis, and I didn't run two into the ground. I closed one down and sold the other.

That isn't running them into the ground, and for the record, the next business I plan to open, isn't automotive related, it is distribution related.

Nice to know you are full of assumptions and false accusations today, must have drank a ton of haterade down there in booneville.


That's how the business works, but sometimes people want to know where the price comes from, so I show them.

Something you do right, shocking!

Dishonesty is in the eye of the beholder.

Because I do a better job and charge for it, you call me dishonest, yet my customers would disagree with you.

It is wildly inaccurate, which is why half of our jobs were priced on a "per job" basis and not labor hour, but were created with labor hour and book hour in mind, as all are.

I want to find a mechanic who says things like "dishonesty is in the eye of the beholder" when referencing his business practices.

It becomes unethical when he bills for hours not worked.

What I've been trying to preach here, is that there is NO STANDARD to apply, though I have a feeling you mean it for a singular business, but I'll use it abroad.

There is no standard book time, of 9 different software companies who produce books, none of them are the same. I used a book time that was one of the industry's lowest book times, and applied 10% accordingly for my business purpose. It doesn't cost the customer much, but in the end, helps me pay for the "extras" i do for my customers. Its not like I'm adding 10% to the whole bill here.

I don't personally mark up labor times, my software is setup to add 10% to labor times to account for our services. And no, I don't offer anything because my business is sold in the hand of a major company doing business out of the same location I was.

Adding 5 dollars to your labor hour ends up costing the customers more than 10% to labor hours, just an FYI for the time when you might decide to up your labor hour because you need to make money or you need to lower your customer intake.

There's like 115 shops in Merriam alone, 10 shops per 3,000 people is at or below the metro average buddy.

When you do a little research on the business and understand how it works, instead of applying it to the business you are currently in, give me a call, I'll school you in the world of automotive repair so that you KNOW what you are talking about.

I don't charge anybody for anything they don't need, including hours. I charge them based on how long this job should take my mechanics, based on how quickly my mechanics work on average compared to book time, and scale appropriately.

No it doesnt. If I bill 4 hours for an intake job and my lead Tech has done a hundred of them and he can do it in three, why should he get paid less because he is really good at it.

Do you know any other job that pays you less the better you become?

Now the marking up of the book time is slightly different, I do believe ethics comes into play if you are doing it on every job but to say I have never marked up book time would not be truthful.

Book time on an exhaust manifold is assuming everything comes apart like it should, there is no additional time for broken exhaust studs, which happens all the time. So I generally give my customer a range on something like that. If the studs dont brake its book time, if they do, it can add quite a bit to the labor.

Whether a shop chooses to raise their labor rate or bump their hours or mark up their parts, is up to them. There is no wrong way to do it.

As some mentioned earlier, the price of the job is what you want to shop. Of course if you only shop for price, I guarantee you, you wont find the best shop.

THANK YOU, somebody who fully understands what I'm talking about here.

This guy truly gets it, I'm buying him a beer.:thumb:

The only way to find the best shop is to ask around, and talk with them face to face.

My job, as an owner, manager, and mechanic, was to show YOU what you were paying for. I might not have always been the cheapest, but I was the best, and for GOOD customers, I'd work almost any way I could and bend over backwards for your business.

However, I'm probably not putting a mirror on your car for 20 bucks or less.LMAO

this is entirely true.


but that comes with TRUST.

half the time my customers dont even WANT an estimate. they dont call around to other shops.

they trust me.

ANYONE who bills lump sum jobs bills for hours not work. Period.

Someone who quotes the book rate and completes the job in less time bills for "hours not worked".

Aren't you an attorney?

so your mechanics werent good enough to do the jobs in book time?

got it.


and the only perrson assuming anything here is you buddy.

you assume i am what you THINK i am. all the while i have told you exactly what i am.

And TRUST is exactly what I provide.

I think you have him confused with Saul Goodman from Breaking Bad, if this Saul Good were an attorney, formerly insurance adjuster, he's a shit attorney according this argument were' having and his lack of understanding the real word and all of these accusations about "illegal" and "unethical".

My labor rate is 98.00 an hour. We arent the cheapest but we dont charge what the dealer does either?

thats not saul's point.


he's talking about the guy inflating book time and charging for it.


if you beat book time good for you its a bonus for the shop and the mechanic.

saul knows this and has stated as such multiple times

so your beef is simply that he bills $80/hr instead of $82/hr?

but those customers that trust you trust that you are charging them according to what the industry standards are.

book time is actually industry standard IMO, thats why every shop buys those over priced things

my beef is that he marks up the time in his labor guide anywhere from 10- 20%.

No, my mechanics were top notch, they can do fast work when I ask them to, but I ask that they do PERFECT work. Something you probably don't know much about. I can charge you for 2 hours and get your car done in an hour, but I can't guarantee it is perfect because I'm putting a rush on them. I'd rather not rush them and sacrifice my product and my credibility.

As for the assumptions, I'm referring to you making the assumption that I had two failed businesses that I ran into the ground, when I didn't.

I like money, I like being paid more for less work, that's why I no longer own my own shop. I like the freedom of doing whatever I want, when I want.

You don't get that freedom at a mom and pop shop, and if you were half as busy as you claim to be on these forums, you wouldn't be here posting.

From someone in the "know" about being busy, I can tell you that I NEVER had the time to post on a message board when I was working at my shops, i was......TOO BUSY......

Business hours 8-6, real hours 7-10. That's what busy looks like chump.

it's no different than insurance work for body work. The insurance company goes by the "book", but shops can tweak accordingly.

it may be a guide, but it's not written in stone.

but would you care so much if his rate was lower than the average rate? you conveniently ignored my questions earlier...

lol more assumptions. when there is a person that has been to my shop and can verify everything i have said.

and i expect every job that leaves my shop to be just as it was from the factory. i dont want to be able to pop a hood and see that the vehicle has been worked on. book time accounts for that, and even includes time to clean up after the job...

but you think you need to inflate it

I'm not following. Not sure if question, or troll post.

You don't always beat book time, you don't always do a PERFECT job. I scale my book times by 10% and only 10% to account for doing a PERFECT unrushed job, because my job is to give you perfect work so that you don't have to bring it back 3 days later with a flat tire after I did an engine swap.

His beef is that he dislikes the fact that I know how to do business better, that I criticized his work, after he criticized mine in another thread. He's an idiot who works at a mom and pop, I'm a small business entrepreneur who is working towards his third business, while Employed in the same field he is in, making 2-3 times as much as him for half the work at a dealership, and today I have an off day, something he doesn't get because he works at a mom and pop where you never get a day off.


Book time is not an industry standard you ****ing moron, if it were, all 9 competing software companies would have the same book numbers, and they don't.
I mark up my labor guide by 10% using an industry low book time, to account for the work that was being done at my shop, which was second to none.

If you don't like that, don't bring your car to any of my current or future businesses, but rest assured, I am not GOUGING you on price, I'm making sure your car is done right the first time, and you don't have to bring it back next week for something we ****ed up.

i dont know what questions you are referring.

im posting while making tickets, in between customers, ordering parts, and doing a couple alignments.

i think that shops that arent honest give all shops a bad name.

dont inflate labor times because you want it to appear that your labor rate is lower.

what happens when you charge a guy 2.2 hours for a job that calls for 2 hours?

probably nothing. but some day they might find out it only calls for 2 hours.and then you are dishonest.

then all shops are thrown under that label.

its happens and is something us reputable shops are left to deal with on a regular basis

Precisely, because there is no industry standard at all.

He conveniently ignores questions for days when he realizes what he is about to answer, contradicts his argument. He does this all the time.

Because My guys do better work, thorough work, and I offer more conveniences, more accommodations than you do.

I simply run a better business Sauto, you can disagree with that all you want, but you don't have a business in the metro, you don't compete with hundreds of shops and dealerships for business.

My prices were great, lower than just about everyone, I did better work than everyone, and I was much more flexible in pay, and in scheduling than those around me.

I knocked that mother****er out of the park with every customer, and not once had a problem, ever.

You might say the same in your backwoods mom and pop, but you didn't do it here in the metro, so your opinion means nothing to me when you're in a different demographic with different competition.

shit i had all weekend off.

another assumption.


and when i put that motor in the car had been here 2 weeks waiting on them to get the money. tire never went flat.

but they ran over a screw from the new roof they had put on last week and now it did.

im sure you would have caught that with your super powers and fixed it prior to it happening,.


BTW her husband just stopped and paid for it. he's a smart guy

i missed his questions.

a guy who has failed 2 times doesnt hold much water in my book either.

and i guarantee you do not make 3 times what i do.

LMAO

How is that dishonest if you walked them through it and they signed a contract?

You didn't take money from them without them knowing.

How is charging 10% more labor hours on book dishonest, if it isn't an industry standard?

How is charging 10% more labor hours on a software book that is 10% below industry standard, dishonest?

You're comparing apples to orangutans here.

All because you fervently want to give me a bad name on this forum, because I opposed your knowledge because I am more qualified to do your work.

To quote you, you called me "An over-educated knowitall".

What's wrong with being educated and knowing the absolute ins and outs of your business?

To me, its more dishonest to NOT know how to run your business effectively than it would be to increase your book hour by 10% to make sure the quality of work is TOP NOTCH.

Whose new roof? If it was yours, you were liable for it.

Also, you aren't nearly as busy as you make it out to be, coming from someone who ran the same business you do, I NEVER got time off. I worked 6.5 days a week non stop, with only holidays off.

Granted, I'm in the metro, and you are in the sticks, but time is time. How can you be so booked and get time off AND post on the forums being so swamped?

Sounds to me like you might have the cars out front, but not nearly enough work to do as you'd like us to believe.

So you believe that running a profitable business is a failure? Or selling a business on a profit is a failure?

This question needs answered immediately.

this thread has reached the level of idiocracy as a thread on another forum I frequent where a poster steadfastly argued for dozens of pages that a woman was unethical for selling her used appliances on Craiglist for more than what she paid for them (even though she paid hundreds less than retail).

[QUOTE=Exoter175;9486173]I'm not following. Not sure if question, or troll post.



No not a troll post, just stating where I choose to make it, in my labor rate. I realize people shop labor rate but we sell them on quality of parts, service and technicians.

I take time off.
People have to wait. I have a family and refuse to kill myself to fix cars. I'm every bit as busy and normally BUSIER than I want to be

I believe you are a failure in business.I don't believe a word you say about it. How's that?
Posted via Mobile Device

[QUOTE=chiefforlife;9486207]Well, I think what most people don't understand is that there is no Industry standard on book time, and no industry standard on labor hour, and that you can change either of them at any time, at will, for any purpose.

There will be guys out there who inflate them solely to make a profit, in fact, most shops will do it just to make a profit. I personally set my labor rate high because I've got a lot of overhead for a small time shop, but I didn't want to get swamped.

I got swamped.

The labor guide is just that, a guide. It is not the Bible. Plenty of shops change labor rates on certain jobs, and some change it on all jobs. I choose to stick to it as closely as possible.
I can tell you that many times Mitchell will say 6 hours and All Data will say 8. Is one guy being dishonest because he uses All Data?

That didn't answer my question.

Does running two profitable businesses and selling one for a profit constitute a failure?

I know nothing about Exoter, never even saw his name before this thread, but just because someone's business has failed does not mean they are not a good person, qualified, or unethical.

I know many, many good contractors that have closed up due to various reasons, many beyond their immediate control. Some simply because they were too nice and didn't charge enough, or didn't understand that there is a much higher cost to keep the doors open that the actual costs of work.

And that's exactly what I'm getting at.

If I choose a labor guide that is 10% below industry average, and then raise my labor hours by 10% because I like the functionality of that software more, does that make me unethical? Despite the top 2/3rds of the industry average softwares charging you more than my 10%?

Summary:

Hootie is a bad person.
Extorter is a bad person.

apparently...

I think SAUTO is clouded by his prior judgement of the OP.

Not sure what Saul's issue is unless it is the ethics of billing as it relates to the legal profession. Double-billing is a rampant (and unethical) practice, so he may see this as similar, even though it's not at all.

:#

by extrapolation, are you saying Hootie= Extorter? :cuss: :evil:

Lol this guy has owned two businesses and closed the first went to school opened another then was too good and sold it because he worked too hard and was too busy but wanted to make more money and be able to do whatever he WANTS WHILE WORKING FOR SOMEONE ELSE. lol how does that happen with a boss.

But yet now is going to open another business because he just wants to.

Dude I hope your don't think we are all not stupid enough to buy the bullshit you are selling.


Baffle em with bullshit.

That's why I don't work in a dealership anymore. They liked to baffle people with bullshit, you fit right in there
Posted via Mobile Device

LMAO

They can't be because they are trying to rip each other off

I call it how I see it.

This is how it all happened.

I posted what not to do in a thread
Sauto posted in it
I corrected him
He got mad and argued that I was being too cautious and specific
I argued that precision and caution matter when working on something that could cause a loss of life.
Sauto got on my case
Saul backed Sauto up
I got on Sauto's case for making claims he couldn't prove
Saul backed Sauto up
Sauto never backed claims up
this thread

Saul isn't on my case for any legal or unethical practice reason, he's on my case because his buddy Sauto is here, that's that.

No, I"m supposed to be some other guy's multi, I can't remember the name at the moment.

Straight from the horses mouth, I was successful, furthered my education, became more successful, want to create YET another business, and somehow I'm a business failure while running two profitable businesses, going to school, and selling the other to take a higher paying job, which is WHY I WENT TO SCHOOL IN THE FIRST PLACE, and how he faults me?


Sauto, You're really smart.

(Probably the first time he's been accused of that one)

If that's the book you go by? Nope.

But to artificially inflate times just because is wrong IMO.

Obviously you feel the same or you wouldn't have asked where the gouge button was lol
Posted via Mobile Device

Yet he knows that each piece of software has a different book time, and who is to say he hasn't used both or used one for a more "accurate" *higher paying* book time?

Nobody, that comes down to honesty.

Its one thing to use the highest book software, and adjust it by 10%, its another to use one of the lowest due to functionality, and adjust by 10%, keeping it lower than 2/3rds of the book times out there still.

Call me a bad man, because I'm going to price rape you at every corner!

Saul and I aren't "buddies" .

I can back up everything I say, just don't see the need for someone like you lol. And you are the one who said 1/8" on a brake line is critical ROFL
Posted via Mobile Device

sigh.

I like to do the right job, you apparently don't. That's what it came down to.

1/8th off a brake line isn't how it came off the showroom floor like you touted about 4-5 pages back. Seems contradictory.

And of course you'd tell me that you have the credentials, but don't need to "prove them" to anyone else.

It still doesn't make them real, buddy.:thumb:

And considering you couldn't tell me which tests you take for your "master tech", something you'd know by heart, Yeah, I'd prone to call bullshit on them as somebody who is well versed in the ASE world.


Which is worse?

Adjust book hours by 10% more? Or falsely hanging an ASE sign at your shop and telling people you are, in fact, ASE certified in a field you aren't certified in?

How's that for ethics asshole?

Well douche I've actually got the certificates hanging.

And I don't even have the ase sign on the outside of my building. No need. It doesn't mean shit.

I only got the certs sure to the fact a dealership will pay out the ass got you to get them.

And you must just not fix brake lines. Because no one doing them at a shop had the machine to make them exactly factory type.


Not even you buddy
Posted via Mobile Device

All I hear is bullshit and excuses coming out of your mouth dude.

I think we're done here.

Hit me up in a month when you want another schooling in business, I'll be sure to make you a pop up book with pictures so you can follow along with the adults.:thumb:

Don't suppose you know anything about wholesale, liquidations, and distributions do you? I don't want to have another profitable business failure on my hands here.

And if you knew half as much about ase as you claim I gave enough hints at what tests I didn't need to take to be master certified that you would know that I was legit.

Just like the ford brake system you didn't know, but you work on fords every day.


One person is full of shit and it damn sure is not me. Hell another poster that had met quite a few people here even stated what I have said is true in regards to my shop. He knows because he's been there multiple times and lives over an hour away.
Posted via Mobile Device

Yeah, thats why I just put it in my labor rate. Id rather be a little more up front about the price.

However I dont fault exorter for doing it his way. I know plenty of shop owners who do it that way and they are good guys.

All those degrees in auto aren't going to help much with that...


One of us has owned several businesses and they are no longer in operation.and is now trying to start another after going to work in a dealership to make more money. Lol

One of us has a successful business that works every day.

Which knows more about business?
Posted via Mobile Device

I agree with the way you do it. Anything else just doesn't seem right. Why try to make the customer FEEL like they got a great deal? Why not just give them one?
Posted via Mobile Device

:spock:

http://www.ground-zero.biz/images/sm...y_animated.gif

Did this thread just fizzle out?

I love talking to other shop owners and Techs...Darn.

My $.02.. there is a REASON mechanics are generally seen as scumbag ripoff artists. That stereotype didn't just appear out of thin air. Defending something as common practice in that industry is not a glowing endorsement.

Oh and I have a funny "Mexican" story to add for Hootie's benefit...

I called a tiny little tire place that was down the street and asked if they could fix a wheel that had a bent rim that was causing the tire to leak. The guy on the phone barely spoke english but I gathered that he was saying yes, just to swing by. So I told him what car I was driving ('66 Impala) and to expect me in a few minutes. Now here if the funny part... I pulled up and stopped the car in front of the what appeared to be the head guy outside. He motioned to some other dudes and BY THE TIME I STEPPED OUT of my car they had the wheel off. I shit you not. I closed the door and walked up to the guy and they had the tire off and were banging away at the wheel. A total of 5 minutes later and my wheel was fixed and back on my car and I asked the guy how much I owed him and he said... twelve. I gave him a $20 and drove away happy as a clam. Fantastic experience. Have sent them a ton of business since. Still cracks me up that the ****ers jacked my car up and took the wheel off before I was even out of the car!

I didn't disagree with you, you were asking a specific question without giving me specific information. You can't fault the student for a terrible lesson.

I mean, if you want to battle wits over cars, I'll gladly oblige you, it shouldn't take long :thumb:

There's a few ways to skin a rabbit, all that matters is that you aren't trying to cheat your customers.:thumb:

They are no longer in operation? Yeah, Calverts buys shops and closes them down. You sure do know your stuff.LMAO:LOL:

One of us went to school for an automotive degree, one of us got one, one of us has more than 10 ASE certifications, and more than 4 different certifications through dealerships, including 3 training program certificates from Honda alone.

One of us ran a business so we could go through college to do this, one of us didn't.

I wonder, who is the one who got an education, started his own business from the ground up and ran profitably, closed it to get MORE education, started another business, ran it profitably, sold it to another company and took a higher paying job.

One of us actually started multiple successful businesses.

One of us actually started a business from the ground up.

Do you know who that person was?

It wasn't you.

Yet you think you know more about business than I do?

Dude, put the pipe down.....

Who says you aren't giving the customer a great deal the other way?

Don't use those guys. They don't understand business or something.

Wait wut?

You drive a 66?
Posted via Mobile Device

Hell there goes another assumption. I didn't start from the ground up. The business was just magically there.
Posted via Mobile Device

And see I have a ton of certs from GM. I used to be a lead tech at a very high profile dealership in kc. But you assumed I don't have them
Posted via Mobile Device

I can't find the inverse of that, but a link came across my facebook the other day about a mobile mechanic from seattle I think, and doing unmentionable things to this guys' truck all to fix a heatercore, and it included pictures. I wish I had the link to show here.

One of us is a liar, and it's not me.

You closed a busy shop where you had to work 6.5 days a week and charged 10 to 20 percent OVER the book time and went to a dealership to work and made more money?

Lying somewhere you are
Posted via Mobile Device

You are the king of assumptions dude, you started it by assuming I failed, and just went all willy nilly tossing out assumptions left and right, yet I am not allowed to even toss one out?

I'm betting that you didn't start your own business, that someone else had that location before you and you bought them out, or took it over, or worked your way up the chain to own it.

You don't seem smart enough to be able to work up a business plan, let alone get the ball rolling on actually opening a business.

Then again you work in the sticks, so maybe you don't need to be a smart businessman to be successful out there, but out here, you do. Come open up a shop and KC and see how long you last Sauto, you'd be surprised how fast the door gets shut on you with your business approach.

You keep saying this, but you never prove it.

But then, you tell me to prove mine, after I've asked you, with the conclusion being that you'd answer mine finally.

Life doesn't work that way, and you're a fraud in my eyes. Deal with it, swallow it, move on.

At the end of the day, I've got more education, more certifications, more credentials than you do, and I've started more successful businesses, made more money, and currently have a higher paying job than you.

Yet you tell me I'm a business failure.

How does that even compute? Are you even making these claims with a straight face?

Its okay to admit when you're trolling Sauto.

I didn't charge 10% OVER book, I increased Book 10%, there is a difference.

So far, I've been pretty transparent, so obviously I'm not the liar, shadetree.

Lol so I need to put all my private info out there for you?

Lmao. Buddy.

You are the troll here. Not me.

There have been multiple people from here that have been to my shop. Hell I can't even remember one poster's screen name but I know his real name. One has even vouched for me.

I'm not lying. You have hidden behind that keyboard and asked me to give you personal stuff. No one would do that.

If I didn't have a family I would have no issues with giving you everything. But I don't trust liars. I have more to worry about in this life than just myself.


You can **** off on that front.
Posted via Mobile Device

10 percent over book would be increasing book time 10 percent. To anyone with any common sense at least
Posted via Mobile Device

Look I have talked with Jason enough to know he is a very good guy. We need those in this business and I think most people would be surprised at how many GOOD guys there are in this business.

Exoter isnt a bad guy I think he divulged to much info for the average consumer and is getting a bad rap because of it.

If you call one shop who's labor rate is 80.00 an hour and you call another shop who's labor rate is 95.00 an hour but they both quote you 1200.00 for the job, whats the difference?

People do shop labor rates and that is what drives some shops to keep the labor rate low and pad the hours.

A shop has to make money to survive, dont hate them for it.

You act like I asked you for your credit card, I asked you WHO you worked for, AFTER you made big claims that you were the lead tech at one of the busiest GM dealerships in KC. That isn't really personal info.

All you've done is attack me, so sorry for asking you to back up your talk when I find that it doesn't coincide with reason, to someone who's actually done what you claim.

I would have laughed hard had you "named" a certain dealership that I'm thinking about right now, because I'd get to the bottom of it within minutes since I know the service manager and owners personally.

Here's to hoping the next time we argue, you name the dealership so I can shoot you down lol.

10 percent OVER book is not the same thing as increasing the book time by 10 percentage.

There's a very big difference between the two.

Its all apples and oranges to everyone, all I'm trying to do here is educate the masses, Jason's just trying to talk shit. Its all he does. Perhaps he's trying to conceal his own practices, who knows.

10 percent over book time would be increasing the time by 10 percent. I can't see where a debate would be there.
Posted via Mobile Device