But why did she need to be a prodigy in the first place? They could have just made her a regular old ensign. Original Uhura was just a competent officer.

To be fair, they're also doing it with other characters. Chapel was just a nurse who made doe eyes at Spock - not some flighty super nerd applying for high-powered intellectual fellowships. I guess Number One (who didn't even have a name in the original pilot) could have been some genetically engineered alien, but it never came up. And the doctor is a super assassin with PTSD barely keeping his rage in check. Like I said before, they're basically supersizing the characters just like Abrams did. Except for poor George Kirk, who has become the bumbling underachiever comic relief guy, like the moron in the Snoop Dog beer commercials. And while Pike was originally a combination of Kirk and Picard, lately he's more like a combination of Picard and the guy from Orville.

Perhaps they feel like they have to do this to maintain the interest of modern audiences, but it's a far cry from TOS - that had three (perhaps four, if you count Scotty) main characters, and everybody else was fairly interchangeable.

So they could have an ensemble show with a range of interesting characters instead of one focused on Pike, Spock, and Una. For the most part, they've done an effective job at that. They are paying homage to TOS regularly but they very clearly aren't trying to remake TOS here.

Why do you want everyone else to be interchangeable? I just finished a rewatch a few months ago of DS9 and the reason that show was so watchable was because they had an entire cast of well developed characters. You could throw in a Worf, O'Brien or Quark episode at any time and it would still be great.

The days of 26 episode seasons are gone. Now we get 10 and have to wait a year for the next ten. I'd rather the show focused on the whole STRANGE NEW WORLDS bit instead of dedicating entire episodes of a very limited run constantly adding super abilities to supporting characters.

No, it's a 'show' problem because - as I said - they've made a Mary Sue out of her. To the point that what could have been a good episode with her as the featured character was flawed and kind of dumb. What they could do with her is show her as a competent officer and a quality human being, which is what ST:TOS did with her. They have a chance to do more along those lines and they're blowing it. I looked at your list of who got the focus in various episodes. Spock should be at the top. He's the most naturally compelling character of the series. Followed closely if not eventually eclipsed by Pike because he should be the central character of this series. After that it's hit or miss depending on the actors involved and how the parts are being written.

I'd rather the show focus on a variety of strong characters myself instead of having 3 good ones and a bunch of extras.

Uhura has had two episodes about her in the show's 20 episode run, one was quite good (the 2nd episode of the show's run) and other was bad (E6 this season). If you're letting one episode affect your view of the overall show despite its multitude of other strengths, I'd suggest it's very much a 'you' problem.

I'd also argue there is no "central character" of this series at this point and the writers have made it pretty obvious in S2 they don't intend to have one. I'm also not sure why that is a problem at all (the alternative is something awful like Discovery where the show is all Burnham all the time and you develop literally nobody else as a character at all).

I'd be good with that. I would appreciate it, even. Just stop taking goofy shortcuts and get back to good storytelling.

They had a good/great episode just two weeks ago in E8.

I guess they should have called it Star Trek - Super New Characters!

No, a bad episode isn't a 'me' problem. It's a 'show' problem. My opinion of the show is going to be based on...the show.

As I've said previously, I come to realize the show isn't written for me. I erroneously thought we were going to get a Pike-Spock-Number One centric series because that was the trio we saw on Discovery. Clearly that's not what they're going for, and I guess I should have not been surprised.

It is what it is, just not what I wanted and thought it would be. I probably will watch tomorrow's episode just because I've come this far, but I'm not the least bit excited about it. With the ongoing strikes, God only knows when they'll have another season and I couldn't care less.

EDIT TO ADD: A good friend of mine, a long term ST fan messaged me this the other day:

"I never thought I'd say this, but they can quit making new Star Trek series if this is the best they can do."

I can't say I disagree.

I'm not really sure what you're arguing at this point and I'm not sure you do either. Is it that you only want 3 good developed characters and nothing else? If so, just go back and watch TOS reruns.

I know. That was a great episode. That last scene at the very end of the episode was damn near perfect. Get back to that.

Guess which other Trek shows also had bad episodes? Every single one of them. Yes, even TNG and DS9 (and plenty of them in both cases). It didn't mean the shows were bad.

Get back to the thing they released a week and a half ago, I guess.

I'm well aware. I still bear the scars of Spock's Brain. No more of that.

Get back to the quality of the show as it was in that episode and stop feeding us bullshit.

If SNW really wanted to pay homage to TOS, they should start throwing in some real bad ones like that.

No. Don't even say that out loud.

Your standards might just be a tiny bit too high for a Trek series. It was a week and a half ago.

The way they're experimenting in some of these episodes, you know something everyone is gonna absolutely hate is coming in S3. I look forward to it.

I thought it was pretty ballsy of them to do that fantasy episode in season one, and so was the decision to do the musical episode this year. They've been the best Trek going on (other than Picard season 3) for quite a while so they can afford to take chances. But stop with the weak storytelling shortcuts.

Honestly, if S2 had been S1, I'd be pretty damn happy with it. Even with the musical episode.

ETA: despite my carping about S1 being better, I love S2 as well. Have enjoyed the hell out of S2.

I'm quite sure I know what I want, and I've been fairly clear about it. I want more of the things that made me actually like Star Trek. More exploration. More space battles. A good recurring villain would be nice. What I need less of is Mary Sue communications officers, Vulcan love triangles and ****ing singing.

So TOS reruns it is then.

How exactly is Uhura a Mary Sue? Half the characters in Star Trek are described as some type of prodigy or genius, I fail to see what they've done with Uhura to elevate her beyond that.

The only thing anyone said specifically is Pike blowing up the refinery, but that's not an instance of writing Uhura to be super-competent, it's writing Pike to be an idiot. And no, that is not the same thing. It's not in service of building up Uhura, it's in service of plot convenience. It's lazy writing trying to ratchet up the stakes.

Really there were a bunch of TNG episodes similar to this. Data and the Exocomps and Wesley's nanites, off the top of my head. But the TNG version of this episode would have some asshole in charge of the refinery who insists they must continue in spite of (let's say) Deanna visions. In the end Picard would side with Deanna, and the asshole would either see the error of his ways or die trying to turn the refinery on. Then there would be a Captain's Log where Picard says the refinery is being disassembled and Starfleet is sending a team to establish communication with the lifeforms.

Unfortunately modern Trek needs explosions in every episode, so we get "WE CAN'T TURN IT OFF! I DON'T KNOW WHY, STOP ASKING QUESTIONS! WE MUST DESTROY IT RIGHT NOW!".

Just watched the cross-over episode. Is it safe to say that all the dudes in lower decks are bumbling effeminate pussies? My god would that get old.

It really shouldn't be that hard should it? And dummy me thought we were going to get that (or a reasonable facsimile thereof.) But I should have known better so that's on me.

I had a guy express an opinion to me the other day that in hindsight is kind of like "Well DUH" but I hadn't really focussed on it. He said these franchises like Star Trek and Star Wars (and maybe Indiana Jones?) are being run by people that weren't long time fans of these franchises. Hell they probably weren't even around when they started, 1966 for ST, 1977 (I think) for Star Wars. So they don't get "More exploration. More space battles." etc. Instead what they know is "Mary Sue." It's just how it is now.

Today is Thursday and i guess the final episode of Season 2 is now released and I keep trying to find a reason to even watch it. I realize I've been watching out of habit, mainly because it has the name Star Trek, and it has the Enterprise and Spock.

I've been reflecting upon this discussion and the musical episode and I realize the reason I don't want to watch it is because I can no longer take it serious as a Star Trek show. For the first time in my 50+ years of ST fandom I actually felt embarrassment for something I saw on screen called Star Trek. Hell if I remember correctly MAD Magazine did a parody of Star Trek one time making it a musical. And that's what SNW is for me, a parody of Star Trek. :(

OK, hell yes. That's more like it.

I don’t want space battles; I want good TV. And this show has produced plenty of that through two seasons now.

They dropped the ball big time by not having a junior doctor under M'Benga who is skilled, witty and maybe even handsome. Last name McCoy.

Have him hang around until an episode like this finale for S2 only to reveal Dr. McCoy's first name is Henry McCoy and *blam* kill him off.

You get the audience to think he's Bones for a season and rug pull 'em to remind everyone space is dangerous.

Very much so. Too bad we have to wait a year for the conclusion. Of course, if they hadn't done a throwaway episode last week..... :banghead:

Finished up fantastically.

Leaving us hanging like that. Damn.

Well . . . I had pretty much decided to give up on it, but if you like the episode, based on your prior comments, I'm guessing I would like it too. But since it's a cliffhanger, maybe I'll wait until the next season comes out. That will give me more time to get the shit from last week out of my mind.

Yeah it was. The whole episode was pretty well pitch perfect.

And that wasn't quite Riker's "Mr. Worf.......fire" moment, but it was a really good cliffhanger.

That's exactly the thing. I've watched shows with (I feel) minimal episodes per season and enjoyed them because each episode was great and the whole season was tight. It's like a concentrated drug piped into your veins and it's a memorable ride. If we're getting ten per season with long waits between seasons then tighten this shit up.

So I’m guessing we won’t hear much complaining about that one. Wasn’t quite as good as last year’s finale but they saved the best episode of the season for the last one just like S1.

Given the strikes, it could also be quite some time until they resolve that cliffhanger. For a show as good as this one, though, I’m willing to wait.

Now that we have concluded S2, I think there’s an argument these are the best first two seasons of any Trek series ever and certainly at least since TOS itself (outside of a few standout episodes, TNG and DS9 didn’t start really going until S3 in each case).

Much like many of the characters, the Gorn have been supersized. I'm sure I said it before, but how in the hell did the lumbering brute from TOS turn into a combination of Alien/Predator? I understand the need to update the 60s stuff for modern audiences, but that absolutely shits all over established canon. Kirk wouldn't have lasted a minute against one of those things with no weapons or armor. Hell, Mike Tyson in his prime wouldn't have lasted a minute against one.

I hope they'll fix this somehow (perhaps as Gorns get older they become bulky and slow and lose their ten foot long whiplash murder tails), but I doubt it.

I realize that I don't represent SNW's intended audience (or any modern show's intended audience, for that matter) but goddamn, they really took this one too far. I wish they'd simply made them a brand new species. I'd have had zero problems with that.

https://imagecdn.handitv.com/FZ1JG-1...bed-enemy3.jpg

This was an alien on TOS. Yes, I think they need to update the 60s stuff for modern audiences.

Sometimes I forget how you love to argue just for the sake of arguing.

"Updating the 60s stuff" and "supersizing" aren't the same thing. Redesigning the bridge is updating. Turning a slow, hulking brute into a velociraptor that infects its victims with its larvae is supersizing.

It's not arguing for the sake of arguing to point out that it is rather silly to complain about a 2020s show not sticking with the ridiculous Gorn design from a 1960s television show with next to no budget. Of course things like that are going to be updated, how could they not?

Again, you're so busy being obtuse that you completely miss the point. Of course you can update things. That is to be expected. I mentioned the bridge before - that is perhaps the coolest thing in Star Trek ever. Hell, I didn't care that they altered the look of the Klingons in the first movie, or the Romulans in NG. But changing the entire nature of something goes far beyond updating. The updated Klingons just had long hair, bad teeth and ridges on their foreheads - they weren't suddenly ten feet tall with tentacles sprouting out of their backs. They could have made menacing CGI Gorns that are better and more realistic than some guy stomping around in a green costume 55 years ago that didn't completely piss on established canon.

Explain how Kirk, alone and unarmed, could survive against an "updated" Gorn long enough to locate and identify the components of gunpowder, and then construct a bamboo mortar. Good luck with that. I guess they could just supersize him into Captain America or Superman; that would be as silly as what they've already done, but hey, modern audiences, right? :rolleyes:

Hold up, you're calling someone else obtuse when you're bitching about SNW altering canon by changing a ridiculous Gorn design from a 1960s no-budget television show to something actually threatening and menacing 60 years later?

This is literally the last thing anybody should be dwelling on, particularly given how effective both the Gorn-related episodes have been.

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For some reason I'm reminded of this Simpsons scene.

I should also point out that the the season finale the very next week actually had all three of those and it still wasn't enough to stop the bitching about how it wasn't enough like the 1960s TV show.

Again, if you want pure TOS, just watch TOS. The rest of us can enjoy SNW for what it is (a very good science fiction show that is the best Trek depiction in 25 years).

If they can't effectively offer an updated version of something from existing content, then leave it alone. Do it well or don't do it.

And for some reason, I'm reminded of this.

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If you’re referring to the Gorn depictions in SNW, they did it phenomenally well. They made what was effectively long considered a joke into something terrorizing.

No, they didn't. They created something new in the franchise and gave it the name of something that already existed. The new thing is fun because it hasn't been in Star Trek yet - because it was stolen from the Aliens franchise.

Yes, they did. Both Gorn episodes have met with high acclaim and the reason for that is that the vast majority of people who watch SNW aren't looking for any reason they can find to attack the show solely because it doesn't have the look and feel of a 1960s TV no-budget show.

This came up last year too here and I have yet to understand why giving the Gorn a similar design to the monsters from the Aliens franchise is a bad thing.

What you're doing here is employing a straw man (arguing against a narrative rather than what has been brought up) and gatekeeping (trying to squash opposing views as being unworthy of discussion). Try engaging in honest discussion and perhaps you won't be confused.

No, I'm arguing against exactly what has been brought up (that SNW has allegedly done a poor job with their depiction of the Gorn because it isn't enough like the silly design from a 1960s show that had long been considered a joke amongst the fans). Ironically, it is you that are an employing a straw man now.

Guilty as charged. Anybody who is actually bitching about something as ridiculous as this after a great episode like that is never going to give SNW a fair shot anyway because it doesn't fit their own personal image of Star Trek.

Also, I'm still waiting to hear why making the Gorn's design similar to the monsters from the Alien franchise is a bad thing. It's a proven formula and it has worked very effectively on this show so far as well.

Nope. ST:TOS is history, it is what it is. The challenge in making another entry into the franchise is in either developing what already exists or bringing in something new that fits the show. If they're going to develop what already exists then don't take short cuts - do it well or don't do it, as I have already said. No one has said that they must be exactly as they originally were, but if the show is going to make the decision to reuse them then it's their obligation to make it work. Doing something completely different and slapping a Gorn nametag on it is lazy.


Nope. It has nothing to do with my own personal image of Star Trek. The Gorn as they were in ST:TOS simply exist. The Gorn as they are in ST:SNW are nothing like them.


Because that isn't the Gorn. It's something completely different. If they wanted to bring in a bad guy like that, nothing was stopping them from doing it. It's another weak storytelling shortcut.

Yes, TOS is history and is very much a product of its time. That is exactly the point and has been the point when judging a show made 60 years later for an entirely different audience.

Again, if you're talking about the Gorn, they did develop what already existed and they did it exceptionally well. They took an old, ridiculous design of a villain that had been considered little more than a joke for decades and made it a serious brutal threat to the Federation. You don't need to look any further than the near-universal acclaim for both Gorn episodes (including here with with a recent comment to your own praise suggesting that it was "pretty well pitch perfect").


An alien that is a dog dressed up in a funny little costume with a horn also exists in TOS too. That doesn't mean any Star Trek these days should be held to the same budget/design constraints or shouldn't update them to fit a TV show made in 2023.


Why isn't it the Gorn? Because it doesn't fit a ridiculous design from a no-budget 1960s TV show (that Roddenberry no doubt would have altered himself had they had the money/technology to do so)? They have re-imagined its design to fit a modern show with a modern audience and created two of the best Trek episodes in decades. What the hell is there to bitch about?

Maybe the Gorn Kirk fought back in the day was a grandpa Gorn in its last days? :shrug:

Sure, let's go with that. We certainly wouldn't want to alter canon here from a 1960s TV show that had next to no money to create alien designs.

It's not the Gorn because it has no resemblance at all to the source material. They've done something completely different and slapped a Gorn nametag on it. Lazy, weak storytelling.

I want a ST:TOS reboot but Spock isn't an alien. He's just a French guy who is studying Philosophy. Everybody has a hard time connecting with him emotionally because of the language barrier but he's really smart.

The source material (at least with respect to the Gorn) was ridiculous and due only to budgetary/monetary/technological constraints that existed in 1967 that do not exist in 2023. They've now modernized the design to make the Gorn a terrorizing villain that have been an integral part of two of the best episodes so far on the show. That isn't lazy, weak storytelling in the slightest. It's a creative way to update what was no longer relevant and use it in service of something better.

What was that about straw men again?

Nope. The source material went beyond the appearance of the character, don't be so shallow. And if the show wanted to use it then they should have done so rather than simply slapping a Gorn nametag on their own ideas.

The one you employed earlier?

Yes, the source material (at least with respect to the Gorn) had long been considered little more than a joke despite it very clearly not being intended to be as such. The producers of this show took that old silly character design and made it into something that worked incredibly well in a modern version of Trek. What is there to possibly bitch about?

They didn't make the original into anything. They brought in something new and slapped a Gorn nametag on it.

That comment was more a reference to yours, but sure.

You mean the joke I shared with Bowser? Are you all excited about French Spock now?

Sure they did and they did it very well. You just, for whatever reason, wanted the design to be a closer to an absolutely ridiculous 1960s costume design that could never and would never be stuck to in 2023.

I wouldn't put anything past the producers of this show.

No, I wanted them to actually use characters from ST:TOS if they were going to introduce them to ST:SNW. If they picked a hard one; tough shit. That's the choice they made. Make it work.

Except it did work and it worked exceptionally well.

He's the Looniguana of Media Center. Hasn't made a single valid point, ignores every valid point made by others, and only responds with THE 60S SUCKED and and UR A HATER and DONT WATCH IT.

If only this wasn't entirely false. TOS was a great show. Shitting on an otherwise great Trek series because it isn't closely following everything that was done then (including its silly character designs that were only a product of the budgetary/technological constraints of that era) is absolutely ridiculous criticism though.

I mean, they literally gave you guys exactly what you were asking for right after the musical episode and it still wasn't good enough because the Gorn didn't look enough like this guy in a clunky lizard suit from 1967:

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qi...112de606da6-lq

What are they seriously supposed to do with this?

Great episode. Just wish they hadn’t wasted two episodes getting there. Gorn went from kind of silly (always reminded me a little of a zombie sleestak) in TOS to pretty scary. Like it.

LMAO

Except that they didn't do it, they did something else.

I disagree. They did about as well as they could have considering that design.

Imagine swapping a ST:SNW Gorn into the ST:TOS episode and having Kirk fight it. It wouldn't work.

And that's a good thing because that fight is absurd by today's standards and was a product of 1960s television.