ChiefsPlanet

ChiefsPlanet (https://chiefsplanet.com/BB/index.php)
-   Nzoner's Game Room (https://chiefsplanet.com/BB/forumdisplay.php?f=1)
-   -   Other Sports The Official 2022 FIFA World Cup Thread (https://chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=345988)

WilliamTheIrish 11-21-2022 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRedChief (Post 16620735)
We lose the players go back to their high paying jobs. Iran players lose, they go the Iranian equivalent of a gulag.

They'll be in the gulag either way these days.

Hark Clunt 11-21-2022 09:16 PM

wales seemed to approach the first half naively and gave us too much respect.

|Zach| 11-21-2022 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRedChief (Post 16620735)
We lose the players go back to their high paying jobs. Iran players lose, they go the Iranian equivalent of a gulag.

You think Iran is sending their soccer team out there expecting them to win games against other World Cup teams?? LMAO

Man, I would stick to American football.

|Zach| 11-22-2022 05:17 AM

Lots of match left but Saudi Arabia is up on Argentina 2-1

Jewish Rabbi 11-22-2022 06:15 AM

Lmao Messi lost to DurkaDurkastan

Eleazar 11-22-2022 07:00 AM

Wow, that’s got to be one of the biggest upsets in history

Eleazar 11-22-2022 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRedChief (Post 16620735)
We lose the players go back to their high paying jobs. Iran players lose, they go the Iranian equivalent of a gulag.

We can always just send you over to break them out, hey

Eleazar 11-22-2022 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TripleThreat (Post 16620750)
I despise Zimmerman, well before that penalty.

I follow the PL avidly, but have not watched an MLS match in years and years. Maybe you fellas can enlighten me.

I know that “MLS defending” has a historically been the punchline, but Zimmerman has apparently been named defender of the year in MLS several times recently… yet he makes such an egregious error in the biggest moment. Is the standard of defending still that low in MLS? Just a particularly bad mental error in a bad spot…?

If he’s going against prime Gareth Bale ok, understandable, but Bale is basically on a retirement tour at this point

Rain Man 11-22-2022 07:31 AM

In unrelated trivia, Group A is the only group where I haven't visited any of the countries.

Garcia Bronco 11-22-2022 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Womble (Post 16620279)
If we had a combined UK squad there would be a place as a starter for Scotland's Andy Robertson at left back and a place on the bench for Wales's Gareth Bale and no Northern Ireland players. It really wouldn't make much difference and it would deny those Welsh, Scottish and Northern Ireland players the opportunity to play international football and represent their country within the union.

Andy Robinson is the tits. So great for Liverpool these past 5 years.

TripleThreat 11-22-2022 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razaele (Post 16621029)
I follow the PL avidly, but have not watched an MLS match in years and years. Maybe you fellas can enlighten me.

I know that “MLS defending” has a historically been the punchline, but Zimmerman has apparently been named defender of the year in MLS several times recently… yet he makes such an egregious error in the biggest moment. Is the standard of defending still that low in MLS? Just a particularly bad mental error in a bad spot…?

If he’s going against prime Gareth Bale ok, understandable, but Bale is basically on a retirement tour at this point

I just don’t think he’s that good, I hate his style of defending personally. I also think him being in the MLS is just the cherry on the top for me. When you’re always the best player on the field with inferior completion I’m an avid believe that when you get to these top tournaments against these top players, you’re just not ready. Sometimes mentally, sometimes physically, sometimes both.

Womble 11-22-2022 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TripleThreat (Post 16620410)
... USA has always had England's number especially recently whether England fans would admit it or not, the statistics of our past games don't lie.

https://i.postimg.cc/L6PyYSmM/Screen...122-140727.png

They don't lie. You however....

Jewish Rabbi 11-22-2022 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Womble (Post 16621085)

So England has never beaten the USA in a game that matters, is what you’re illustrating with that chart. Got it.

RollChiefsRoll 11-22-2022 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jewish Rabbi (Post 16621087)
So England has never beaten the USA in a game that matters, is what you’re illustrating with that chart. Got it.

Their case is full of INTERNATIONAL FRIENDLY trophies!

Womble 11-22-2022 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jewish Rabbi (Post 16621087)
So England has never beaten the USA in a game that matters, is what you’re illustrating with that chart. Got it.

It's a bullshit statement backed up by the facts. One win in 1950 (lmao) isn't having our number and the 'especially recently ' part is 4 losses and a draw in 5 games.

penguinz 11-22-2022 08:26 AM

Trying to argue that the USA is on same level as England is like arguing that UMKC is almost as good as KU.

TripleThreat 11-22-2022 09:10 AM

Few upsets happening today. That draw was surprising. Denmark definitely came into their own at the end there. Tunisia played well for a long time but they were holding on at the end.

Why Not? 11-22-2022 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TripleThreat (Post 16621188)
Few upsets happening today. That draw was surprising. Denmark definitely came into their own at the end there. Tunisia played well for a long time but they were holding on at the end.

Well that bodes well for me. I have Mexico on a draw no bet so you gotta figure a favorite or two (staying away from France, too big a favorite) gets a win today.

Eleazar 11-22-2022 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Womble (Post 16621101)
It's a bullshit statement backed up by the facts. One win in 1950 (lmao) isn't having our number and the 'especially recently ' part is 4 losses and a draw in 5 games.

Yeah, it’s nonsense obviously.

Drawing with England in a meaningful game like we did in 2010 would be a fantastic result.

As it stands we will probably advance or go out on goal difference, so I might take a 1-0 defeat to England right now if you offered it to me.

Why Not? 11-22-2022 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razaele (Post 16621216)
Yeah, it’s nonsense obviously.

Drawing with England in a meaningful game like we did in 2010 would be a fantastic result.

As it stands we will probably advance or go out on goal difference, so I might take a 1-0 defeat to England right now if you offered it to me.

Hard to see England not getting at least one more win in the group stage. If we can be the team to get a draw against them, we are excellently set up to advance. Need these pups to have the match of their lives on Friday. 1-0 L wouldn't be the worst thing in the world but it takes a lot our of our "hands".

WilliamTheIrish 11-22-2022 09:39 AM

That KSA/ARG match was incredible. 2-1 KSA.

ARG should have had 5 goals, but were offside 4 times.

Hark Clunt 11-22-2022 09:50 AM

man this mexico-poland match is huuuge now that argentina has lost.

penguinz 11-22-2022 11:17 AM

Mexico always has a clutch keeper.

KCUnited 11-22-2022 11:22 AM

Nice save Poland

George Liquor 11-22-2022 11:43 AM

How tf did Argentina lose to those shitters?

TripleThreat 11-22-2022 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Womble (Post 16621085)

They don't lie. You however....

International friendly's usually don't have the top players from their teams playing.

Even during qualifiers this year we didn't have our best players playing lol. And trying to use stats from the 1950's is a bit absurd, which is why my statement said "recent". I'm talking games since the 90's have been relatively close, and they never should have been with some of those teams we had... and as someone else pointed out, in the few games they mattered, we won, and tied, the rest are all friendlies....

Recently (as in 12 years ago in 2010) when it truly mattered USA tied England 1-1 in a game USA had no business in drawing like the game this Friday. It's hard to judge teams in friendlies because the reason for friendly matches is to try new players and formations.

penguinz 11-22-2022 11:59 AM

FYI ... Thursday Portugal vs Ghana AR1, the assistant referee on the team bench side of field, is a local referee. Kyle Atkins

DJ's left nut 11-22-2022 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razaele (Post 16621018)
Wow, that’s got to be one of the biggest upsets in history

And there was much rejoicing:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5d/d8...60ced6216c.gif

Eleazar 11-22-2022 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TripleThreat (Post 16621435)
International friendly's usually don't have the top players from their teams playing.

Even during qualifiers this year we didn't have our best players playing lol. And trying to use stats from the 1950's is a bit absurd, which is why my statement said "recent". I'm talking games since the 90's have been relatively close, and they never should have been with some of those teams we had... and as someone else pointed out, in the few games they mattered, we won, and tied, the rest are all friendlies....

Recently (as in 12 years ago in 2010) when it truly mattered USA tied England 1-1 in a game USA had no business in drawing like the game this Friday. It's hard to judge teams in friendlies because the reason for friendly matches is to try new players and formations.

So… saying we “have England’s number” based on friendlies is meaningless.

You could reference the draw in 2010, though most of our players were in grade school then

TripleThreat 11-22-2022 01:10 PM

LMAO must be Upset day

TripleThreat 11-22-2022 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razaele (Post 16621545)
So… saying we “have England’s number” based on friendlies is meaningless.

You could reference the draw in 2010, though most of our players were in grade school then

So you agree with me then, that the friendlies are meaningless.. Since our pool of games to choose from is almost once every 10 years, in the last 20ish years, the two meaningful games where the USA and England brought their best players, the US bested England, and with the second ending a draw.

POND_OF_RED 11-22-2022 01:12 PM

AUSSIE AUSSIE AUSSIE!!! OI OI OI!!

Womble 11-22-2022 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TripleThreat (Post 16621435)
International friendly's usually don't have the top players from their teams playing.

Even during qualifiers this year we didn't have our best players playing lol. And trying to use stats from the 1950's is a bit absurd, which is why my statement said "recent". I'm talking games since the 90's have been relatively close, and they never should have been with some of those teams we had... and as someone else pointed out, in the few games they mattered, we won, and tied, the rest are all friendlies....

Recently (as in 12 years ago in 2010) when it truly mattered USA tied England 1-1 in a game USA had no business in drawing like the game this Friday. It's hard to judge teams in friendlies because the reason for friendly matches is to try new players and formations.

https://m.gjcdn.net/fireside-post-im...knqxuq-v4.webp

TripleThreat 11-22-2022 01:20 PM

Womble - In the last 25 years we won all the friendlies.

USA - We won the games that mattered and/or tied.

Womble - Yeah but we won the friendlies. Also let me show you some games from before we were all born.

Lol what a idiot.

kstater 11-22-2022 01:21 PM

Who had Argentina and France losing their openers on their bingo card?

Sent from my SM-S906U1 using Tapatalk

George Liquor 11-22-2022 01:22 PM

Damn almost 2-0

TripleThreat 11-22-2022 01:28 PM

Coulda/Woulda been a different game had they gotten up 2-0..

France probably runs away with this one now.

George Liquor 11-22-2022 01:29 PM

A hon hon hon

George Liquor 11-22-2022 01:32 PM

It's over

TripleThreat 11-22-2022 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baby Lee (Post 16621736)
Inevitable.

Just dominating

Agreed, it was clear Australia was trying to play the defend/counter game, but tbh they are getting rocked in the box.

Mbappe constantly just rushes the 6 yard line from the side and just passes it back to the top of the box, then you also just have all these crosses since France is dominating possession on the outside.

MarkDavis'Haircut 11-22-2022 02:36 PM

The French Foreign Legion

RunKC 11-22-2022 02:43 PM

Mbappe is so good. He’s so fast too. Would love to see a race between him and Tyreek

TripleThreat 11-22-2022 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RunKC (Post 16621770)
Mbappe is so good. He’s so fast too. Would love to see a race between him and Tyreek

Agreed. I still don't understand how we don't have that type of a player coming out of the US in the last 30 years.. You'd think we would have by now

TripleThreat 11-22-2022 02:59 PM

That's a good point by the commentator, France doesn't even have Benzema and they look this dominate...

Then again though, I have to continue to remind myself this is Australia, a bottom 5 team of the tournament.

BWillie 11-22-2022 03:26 PM

Im rooting for england on Friday because this is really cutting into the football season the more i think about it

Easy 6 11-22-2022 05:25 PM

Now they're warning about terror attacks... and thats why you don't try to hold secular events in muslim nations ;)

|Zach| 11-22-2022 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TripleThreat (Post 16621070)
I just don’t think he’s that good, I hate his style of defending personally. I also think him being in the MLS is just the cherry on the top for me. When you’re always the best player on the field with inferior completion I’m an avid believe that when you get to these top tournaments against these top players, you’re just not ready. Sometimes mentally, sometimes physically, sometimes both.

The idea that he is always the best player on an MLS field simply is not close to being accurate.

|Zach| 11-22-2022 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razaele (Post 16621029)
I follow the PL avidly, but have not watched an MLS match in years and years. Maybe you fellas can enlighten me.

I know that “MLS defending” has a historically been the punchline, but Zimmerman has apparently been named defender of the year in MLS several times recently… yet he makes such an egregious error in the biggest moment. Is the standard of defending still that low in MLS? Just a particularly bad mental error in a bad spot…?

If he’s going against prime Gareth Bale ok, understandable, but Bale is basically on a retirement tour at this point

I think it was one moment in an intense game.

TripleThreat 11-23-2022 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by |Zach| (Post 16622349)
The idea that he is always the best player on an MLS field simply is not close to being accurate.

One of the best? I mean it’s apples to oranges no?

BWillie 11-23-2022 12:23 AM

Please advise why the following players are on the UNITED STATES soccer team, when they are in fact, not American.

Cameron Carter-Vickers
Sergino Dest
Antonee Robinson
Yunus Musah

TripleThreat 11-23-2022 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BWillie (Post 16622560)
Please advise why the following players are on the UNITED STATES soccer team, when they are in fact, not American.

Cameron Carter-Vickers
Sergino Dest
Antonee Robinson
Yunus Musah

Yunus Musah = born in New York
Robinson = parent citizenship qualifies him
Dest has dual citizenship with both USA and Netherlands.
Cameron who?

England is worse tbh. It’s a weird way on how it all works. Someone else can probably go into more specifics

JPH83 11-23-2022 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TripleThreat (Post 16622564)
Yunus Musah = born in New York
Robinson = parent citizenship qualifies him
Dest has dual citizenship with both USA and Netherlands.
Cameron who?

England is worse tbh. It’s a weird way on how it all works. Someone else can probably go into more specifics

How is England worse?

Womble 11-23-2022 02:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPH83 (Post 16622581)
How is England worse?

We aren't. The moron you are replying to is some sort of bot programmed to lie about England.

https://i.postimg.cc/Dw1gzhHs/Screen...123-082855.png

jd1020 11-23-2022 03:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TripleThreat (Post 16622564)
Yunus Musah = born in New York
Robinson = parent citizenship qualifies him
Dest has dual citizenship with both USA and Netherlands.
Cameron who?

England is worse tbh. It’s a weird way on how it all works. Someone else can probably go into more specifics

What exactly is weird about it? A player has to have a tie to the country he wants to represent and then he gets locked into that country after playing competitive matches for them. It's quite simple really and not confusing.

Monticore 11-23-2022 05:15 AM

He thing we can all agree on is soccer players are such pussies and floppers it kind of ruins the game

Monticore 11-23-2022 05:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jd1020 (Post 16622596)
What exactly is weird about it? A player has to have a tie to the country he wants to represent and then he gets locked into that country after playing competitive matches for them. It's quite simple really and not confusing.

I think Johnathan David was born in the US plays for Canada Most of our team is probably ot born in in Canada , but a lot still developed here .

Dull Tools 11-23-2022 08:49 AM

Germans aren't singing now are they. Take me home to Germany where I belong.

Dull Tools 11-23-2022 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monticore (Post 16622606)
He thing we can all agree on is soccer players are such pussies and floppers it kind of ruins the game

Never used to be like this but the referees just accept it now which makes it worse. Should be a yellow card for a dive but barely ever happens now.

It is made worse by people saying that it is a penalty when people barely get touched in the penalty are.

Monticore 11-23-2022 09:10 AM

Just need a Canada upset later today , pretty fun seeing underdogs win .

tredadda 11-23-2022 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TripleThreat (Post 16621782)
Agreed. I still don't understand how we don't have that type of a player coming out of the US in the last 30 years.. You'd think we would have by now

The problem is that although soccer is gaining in popularity here it is still nowhere close to football, basketball, or baseball. As such the best athletes in the US tend to play one of those three sports, not soccer. Throughout a majority of the rest of the world the opposite is true more often than not.

SithCeNtZ 11-23-2022 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tredadda (Post 16622778)
The problem is that although soccer is gaining in popularity here it is still nowhere close to football, basketball, or baseball. As such the best athletes in the US tend to play one of those three sports, not soccer. Throughout a majority of the rest of the world the opposite is true more often than not.

Adding to this, people also forget or don't know that soccer is not like the other sports in terms of how quickly you can develop. You hear all of the time in football and basketball about how some kid decided at 16 or even in college that he should pick up a basketball or try out for the football team because he couldn't cut it in his preferred sport but it turns out he's actually really good at this other sport and now he's a pro bowler a few years later. That doesn't happen in soccer. A complete freak athlete that can't shoot in basketball or can't catch in football can't just decide in college that I guess I'll try soccer and suddenly play in the premier league 2 years later. This neutralizes the population advantage of the US because these kids have to decide early they are invested in soccer or it's just not going to happen for them, and as was mentioned they usually don't choose soccer over the other sports.

Vladimir_Kyrilytch 11-23-2022 09:46 AM

I clapped when Wales scored on that PK. That country is tiny but it proves that anything can happen on the pitch for a team focused on soccer instead of homosexuality and gender dysphoria.

jd1020 11-23-2022 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vladimir_Kyrilytch (Post 16622818)
I clapped when Wales scored on that PK. That country is tiny but it proves that anything can happen on the pitch for a team focused on soccer instead of homosexuality and gender dysphoria.

Image: Not Safe for Work
NSFW Image

louie aguiar 11-23-2022 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monticore (Post 16622606)
He thing we can all agree on is soccer players are such pussies and floppers it kind of ruins the game

Yeah, I give soccer a try about once every four years when the WC rolls around and I’m reminded why I can’t get into soccer and I don’t think I’ve ever watched a soccer game all the way through. How many times during the US/Wales game was there a player on the ground holding their leg in excruciating pain only to get up a couple minutes later and run around like nothing happened?

George Liquor 11-23-2022 10:09 AM

All the upsets are happening early in the AM and the snoozers are in the 2nd half of the slate.

Monticore 11-23-2022 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by louie aguiar (Post 16622826)
Yeah, I give soccer a try about once every four years when the WC rolls around and I’m reminded why I can’t get into soccer and I don’t think I’ve ever watched a soccer game all the way through. How many times during the US/Wales game was there a player on the ground holding their leg in excruciating pain only to get up a couple minutes later and run around like nothing happened?

Growing up playing hockey , I just don’t understand how a grown man can live with himself doing shit like that . It is one of the reasons s I find it hard watching basketball too , it seems to be catching on there as well.

George Liquor 11-23-2022 10:12 AM

Spain is so god damn boring. It's like watching that Simpsons .gif in real life.

*passes the ball back and forth 40000 times*
*wins 1-0*

Gary Cooper 11-23-2022 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BDj23 (Post 16622860)
Spain is so god damn boring. It's like watching that Simpsons .gif in real life.

*passes the ball back and forth 40000 times*
*wins 1-0*

You're thinking of their glory days. They have completely different personnel now.

Monticore 11-23-2022 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baby Lee (Post 16622897)
I can see criticizing Spain as boring as part of the whole soccer is boring schtick. But it's odd to single out Tiki-Taka out as specifically or particularly boring, as most people find it the most exciting style since Ginga

It’s part of breaking down a def , like a all those boring 2-3 yard runs in the NFL , I mean so team do play shitty boring park the bus soccer but every league/sport has a style of play that isn’t great for viewing.

George Liquor 11-23-2022 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary Cooper (Post 16622877)
You're thinking of their glory days. They have completely different personnel now.

They played like that in the last euro and wc

TripleThreat 11-23-2022 12:02 PM

So does Costa Rica's back line show how important a good defense is, compared to a great goal keeper?

I mean no matter how good Navas is, there was nothing he could do against some of those plays/shots.

Jewish Rabbi 11-23-2022 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Womble (Post 16622584)
We aren't. The moron you are replying to is some sort of bot programmed to lie about England.

https://i.postimg.cc/Dw1gzhHs/Screen...123-082855.png

Can you post that same chart in English you ****in reerun? You know, since we live in America and that’s our language?

TripleThreat 11-23-2022 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jd1020 (Post 16622596)
What exactly is weird about it? A player has to have a tie to the country he wants to represent and then he gets locked into that country after playing competitive matches for them. It's quite simple really and not confusing.

Well it is a bit confusing since if I was born in Russia, but my parent's were born in the United States, I don't have the same rights as if I was born in USA just because my parents were born there?

So while it's simple to chalk it up to, your parents or grandparents or yourself need to be from said country, it's confusing why its allowed.

carlos3652 11-23-2022 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jewish Rabbi (Post 16623120)
Can you post that same chart in English you ****in reerun? You know, since we live in America and that’s our language?

That just shows the players who were born in another country - but representing a different country.

A lot of the African nations have French players because they were once French colonies…

TripleThreat 11-23-2022 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SithCeNtZ (Post 16622809)
Adding to this, people also forget or don't know that soccer is not like the other sports in terms of how quickly you can develop. You hear all of the time in football and basketball about how some kid decided at 16 or even in college that he should pick up a basketball or try out for the football team because he couldn't cut it in his preferred sport but it turns out he's actually really good at this other sport and now he's a pro bowler a few years later. That doesn't happen in soccer. A complete freak athlete that can't shoot in basketball or can't catch in football can't just decide in college that I guess I'll try soccer and suddenly play in the premier league 2 years later. This neutralizes the population advantage of the US because these kids have to decide early they are invested in soccer or it's just not going to happen for them, and as was mentioned they usually don't choose soccer over the other sports.

Very true. It'd be like telling an NFL quarterback they now have to throw with their left hand, and they can't even start competing until they can throw with their left, like they can with their right..

Womble 11-23-2022 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jewish Rabbi (Post 16623120)
Can you post that same chart in English you ****in reerun? You know, since we live in America and that’s our language?

I'm sorry but I can't translate it into stupid for you. Maybe get out of your mother's basement and ask her to do it for you. Or you could ask your aunt. Oh wait, your aunt's also your mother. Nevermind.

TripleThreat 11-23-2022 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Womble (Post 16623242)
I'm sorry but I can't translate it into stupid for you. Maybe get out of your mother's basement and ask her to do it for you. Or you could ask your aunt. Oh wait, your aunt's also your mother. Nevermind.

I couldn't imagine being an England fan tbh. The amount of choke jobs that team has had.

Eleazar 11-23-2022 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BDj23 (Post 16622860)
Spain is so god damn boring. It's like watching that Simpsons .gif in real life.

*passes the ball back and forth 40000 times*
*wins 1-0*

Well this didn’t age well

George Liquor 11-23-2022 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razaele (Post 16623272)
Well this didn’t age well

Costa Rica is awful and it doesn't change the fact that Spain passes the ball 500 more times than there opponent every game.

They had 800 more passes than Costa Rica

Eleazar 11-23-2022 01:05 PM

Japan beats Germany with 25% possession. No goals in open play. Impressive.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:54 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.