But inner harbor and the complex the ESPN Zone was in are Cordish developments. I said earlier that Cordish developments have a history of high turnover. While Cordish may not have been the final reason it just goes to show that they get big flashy national name places to attract crowds, and at some point the new wears off and pow...empty space. That is going to be a lot of square footage to fill.

When I lived in Baltimore the only time I ever went to those places was when we had company from out of town. I think that's true for most of the natives. With fewer tourists you can probably look forward to more turnover.

I think you have shit in your pants, but that's only because it's near where you keep your brains most of the time

That is part of my point when it is new it is cool for locals to go. Then after awhile it becomes old, and you only go for special events or when friends or families come to town. P&L is never going to be more popular than it is right now. For all the regulars...five years from now you won't be. It is a basic business truth when it comes to destination locations in a city.
The same holds true for sports teams and new stadiums. Year one and two large crowds and a lot of excitement, but if the product isn't good and the newness wears off attendance goes way down. Look at the Nationals and their new stadium. Hard to get in year one...now you can count the people in the stands on most nights.

Have you ever been to the Plaza? Those places turn over constantly. That's the way retail goes.

That was always going to be the case. The P&L is basically bringing in as much money as they could possibly hope to bring in. The city knew that it was going to have to subsidize it because of the overwhelming nature of the project.

Normal bars don't have to pay to build parking garages and redo streets in addition to paying their rent. I just listened to an interview with the Funk, and he said as much. He know going in that this was going to happen.

You can give a kid $1,000,000 to build a lemonade stand and tell him to pay you back the money over 30 years, but he's never going to sell enough lemonade to pay the bill. Even if the kid has 50 people in line 24 hours a day, the math just doesn't work. That doesn't mean that the lemonade stand isn't doing well. It just means that the expectations were ridiculous.

billay,

The bars in Westport have always turned over. I've been through the thick and thin in Westport and in those times I can thing of a maybe 5 places that have stood the test of time.

Bar business has always been that way. The overwhelming majority of failed businesses in Westport would have failed with or without P&L.

What Saul said.

Funny thing Saul...when I posted that the numbers and payback were wrong from the beginning, and most people knew they were unrealistic. You got on my case for questioning the P&L...while all I was questioning was the bill of goods sold to the public. Now you post, and it backs up what I said. Pick a position dude.

link?

Speaking of stadiums, the harbor area would likely be doing much better if the Orioles were a contending team.

One of the big risks you take when you develop around a team or venue. That is one reason why it is better for the P&L not have a sports team at Sprint Center. In Houston around Minute Maid most of the development failed and most of the bars in the area are only open on game day.

That post had nothing to do with the numbers being unrealistic. That post said that it's been great for the city, and I stand by that. The city went into this knowing that they were going to have to subsidize some of it. That doesn't make the district a failure.

The city is much better off now than it was 5 years ago. Without the P&L, this city doesn't sniff an All-Star game. Without the P&L, this city isn't even in the discussion for hosting a World Cup event.

The P&L District and the Legends Shopping Center are 2 of the best things this city has to offer.

The Chiefs and Royals both suck, and they are located out in the middle of nowhere. (How sad is it that they are on the short list of "positives" for the city.

Worlds of Fun and Oceans of Fun are fine, but they are in the middle of nowhere.

The casinos are fine, but they are in the middle of nowhere.

The Plaza is cool.

What else is there? If you take away P&L and the development going on around the Legends (Cabellas, Great Wolfe Lodge, Dave & Busters, the Speedway, Community America Ballpark, the Wizards' Stadium, Nebraska Furniture Mart, Chateau Avalon, Schlitterbahn, Shopping, Dining, etc.), you are left with an arena with no tenant in the middle of a ghost town, and a bunch of marginal activities (Plaza notwithstanding) in the middle of nowhere.

It is unfathomable to me that, out of everything that Kansas City has done wrong over the years, that you are trying to call out the Legends and the P&L district as failures.

First of all an average bar is open 5 years then closes. That is just how it is in that industry.