[QUOTE=Bowser;11614994]Speaking of an F-16...

The F-35, touted as the jet of the future, has just run into perhaps its single most damning issue yet — the jet cannot effectively dogfight against the older jets it is meant to replace.....

That’s the core of the argument: “dogfight” defined. In a post-merge “dogfight,” the Ps and E-M charts tell you everything you need to know. There is no reason to launch to gain knowledge under those parameters. Fight Smart. In a heavy active radar environment, the F-35 can fight its way in and should be avoiding these merges. The F-16 is designed for these merges and seeks them for its survival. The value and balance of stealth vs. agility/maneuverability is really playing out in Naval Aviation. The Navy has replaced most Hornets with new ones and the F-35C has carrier landing issues. The USMC is therefore separating to some extent with their C2 processes, tactics, etc. to be more in line with the USAF practices from the Raptors.
Similar arguments played out when we moved from 3rd Gen to 4th Gen. For example, I participated in the F/A-18 Opevals and my Navy attack pals failed the Hornet in operational testing simply because it did not carry as much or fly as far as the A-7 that it was replacing. Seemed pretty clear using those standards. The “multirole” fighter/attack aircraft and ability to fight your way into the target self-contained was nonsense to them. They couldn’t see the value of that to the ship, C2, parts chain, etc. 35 years later, the Navy is arguing to keep the Hornet- “old dog” argument or do we bet on stealth and more commonality?

BTW, the Russians have proven how good thier seats are fairly annually at the Paris airshow..... The J36 and J37 seats flat work.

An old “dogfight” that might help illustrate the issue. A Libyan engagement. The first video is the merge and where the 4th Gen folks want to fight. For those unfamiliar with the language:
Angels = altitude
Alpha Bravo= Anti-Air Warfare Combat Controller (ship’s radar fight manager and higher headquarters)
F-1= radar missile (sparrow in this case but AMRAAM today)
F-2= IR missile (“Heater” Aim-9L in this case)
Dash 2 was a “switch pig” and screwed up his switches by going to what we trained with (so we wouldn’t shoot each other with “heaters”) and why you hear the angst over a “tone.” The “tone” is cuing that the missile’s seeker head (super cooled InSb) has locked onto something. Video has both inter-cockpit and UHF comms. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBdBV3lXrp8
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2nd video is the same engagement animated and expanded into the pre-merge (30-50 mile) range. An error is that AB is referred to as an AWACS. It is beyond these ranges that 5th Gen guys want to be and engage. Today even most Eagle/ Hornet/Falcon (I refuse to recognize “Vipers” for F-16s since that is an official USMC squadron call sign) guys prefer a fight coordinated via data by a Raptor then by an AWACS to set up the engagements. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyORtaFCa3I
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Shit - that's tense man.

I must have missed the clear to engage before the lead took his shot. Really cool videos.

WTF were the Libyans doing there? Apart from being outclassed mechanically, they essentially just kept daring the F-14s to shoot them down. It's like yelling 'hit me! hit me!' with your arms at your side and then....y'know...getting shot with a missile.

Thanks for the info. So the short answer is that the F-35 is pretty much built as a straight up interceptor. It still seems like they could have made one of those and not have it come at the expense of the F-22 program.

You didn't miss his clearance to engage. weapons Yellow/ Hold does not deny self-defense. At 16 miles that fight was over. they went visual at 6. F-35 is a multirole principly CAS aircraft that can fight it's way in a radar environment-why USMC started it as a Harrier replacement. Raptor owns the skies.

God I would loooooove LOVE to fly a fighter jet. Or just take a ride in a hornet or something.

Wait - did the RIO fire that first shot? Just listening again, the 'Fox 1' voice didn't sound like the pilot (or who I thought was the pilot) and someone was startled when the missile came out. Was that the RIO firing and catching the pilot off guard?

If so, I had no idea the RIO could fire a missile.

I love the flying shelters and umbrellas...

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Saw the F-35 and F-22 yesterday at EAA airshow in WI.

F-35 was on static display. Surrounded by guys with M-4s. Nice to see a part of a Trillion $.

Put on your bucket list to see a F-22 aerial demo. UNBELIEVABLE!

How would a F-15 do against a F-22??

Blue Angels are in Fargo today, I wish i was there!

Ah Oshkosh. Good times camping out under the wing of my dads plane.

The RIO can't fire a missile...lots of times though as a RIO I would lean over the shoulder of the pilot and go oh you got something on your flight gear and then quickly press the fire button.

... and was able to escort B-29s over Japan.

Hands down, the Mustang.

Duuuuuuuude.....

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No big deal, just driving a fighter jet through a ****ing mountain range.

The 2012 Raytheon video:

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EDIT: Shit...these were both posted already. Goddammit.

Carry on.

Your heart was in the right place. Good bump. :D