exactly, stats never tell the whole story, good or bad.

Originally Posted by BigChiefFan View Post
...and there lies the problem. You're willing to ignore the actual stats and blindly dismiss his play, because of his name.

did you not read my prior post that was quoted by BCF?

Yep. The fan base is so desperate for a franchise QB, they think any old POS can magically drive Cassel to the bench, when the numbers don't support that, no matter how much they wish it so. They are willing to cut off their noses to spite their faces.

You're right. But seeing his stats and watching him play, it's clear that Kyle Orton is one of the worst red zone QBs in the league. If you want a QB like that, fine, I'd rather not.

Orton is the pile of shit that sits just adjacent to the pile of Cassel shit. The Cassel shit has been there so long in plain view, and he's begun to fester a bit and turn into the white nasty shit. While the pile of Orton shit is a bit more fresh and less white, it is shit just the same. So drop it.

i've never been a huge Orton fan, i liked him because he made defenses respect the passing game when he played tho.

when Cassel plays they only have to cover 10-15 yards of the field.

my last post applies to this one as well.

I HATE the ABC crowd.

Do they not realize that if you replace Cassel with another turd, the organization will have time to polish that turd and try to sell it wasting yet another 3yrs. of our talented players careers? Same goes for just any ole' average QB in the first round. Sanchez has been very forgettable, but he's still the starter.

I would much rather stick with the status quo until the RIGHT QB comes along! Might be here already, might get him in the 1st next year.

What good is that if you don't score any points?

like the Cassel led Chiefs light up the scoreboard. ROFL

They at least score when they get to the Redzone. With Orton, I EXPECTED a FG.

Beats the hell out of being a member of the NBC (Nobody But Cassel) crowd.

And you are right, the QB "might already be here". That is what us ABC'ers are ready to see.

Obviously, thats a problem. However, Orton did throw for 300 yrds twice in 3 games.

How many times did Cassel do that?

I'm not crazy about Orton, either. But there is no question he is better than Cassel.

then we should be ranked higher in redzone offense when Matt plays...


hmmm, last time i checked we were near the bottom of the league.

The Chiefs put up 19, 13 and 7 points the games Orton started.

How is anybody impressed? In those games, we also won despite our QB same as Cassel. The defense was the reason for the wins. Not Orton.

Who's in the NBC crowd? I don't see anybody pimping Cassel. I don't see anybody who would rather have Cassel than a good QB.

What I do see is people who aren't clamoring for average/shitty quarterbacks such as Orton and Quinn. And they are correct in that regard.

What do we get with Orton or Quinn? 3 more years of average play? At least with Cassel we know his time is limited and patience has worn thin.

i think by Orton stretching the field with the passing game and moving the chains helped the Defense vastly, something Matt does not do, he has too many three and outs.

the defense gets no rest.

Orton moves chains. Defense rests.

Bowe drops TD. So does McClain. First on leads to INT. Second to FG. 11 missed points there. FG kicker also misses 9 more points worth of FG's. 6 vs Raiders. 3 vs Donks.

NBC'ers. Folks who argue againt the ABC'ers.

well, i think that's a wrap. ROFL

So should we list TD drops and missed field goals for Cassel too? He might have had 30+ TDs in 2010 if it wasn't for TD drops...

Um...the two aren't mutually exclusive. Just because you don't want Anybody but Cassel doesn't mean you want Nobody but Cassel.

I don't want an average QB (Orton) or a draft bust (Quinn) replacing Cassel because it adds nothing to the team. A QB who can't score in the redzone is a liability not an asset. Having 5 red zone trips and coming out with 4 FGs is a damn disgrace. If Cassel had done that, you'd have 2000 posts about it.

Cassel = Bum. Orton = Bum. Quinn = Bum.

He had a few INT's dropped that season too. So whatever you want to do there.

I'm not singing Orton's praises. Just saying for having absolutely no time to develop chemistry with his team/receivers, he sized up and fitted Cassel with clown shoes.

Just a play on words dude. Relax.

And FWIW, I think you would be hard pressed to find any ABC'er who would want Palko again, so techniquely ABC'er is incorrect as well. But we ABC'ers understand the connotation. Same is meant by NBC'er.

Our choices right now besides Cassel are Quinn and Stanzi. I'm thinking one or both can beat him out. Orton showed why there is reason for hope.

Again. I give Orton the benifit of the doubt. Not much time for chemistry to develop. Much less in the red zone chemistry.

Yeah, by having 1 touchdown in 3 games. Yep clown shoes.

Having yards means shit if you're not scoring. Leading your team to 19 points, 13 points, and 7 points is not impressive at all.

He didn't even average a lot of yards. He averaged 194.8 yards per game with the Chiefs. Cassel averaged 190.3.

So what's the upside with him? Same yards per game as Cassel and worse in the redzone. What's so impressive?

you're still here?



































J/K

Because of one flea flicker pass that counted for a game played. Nice try though.

EDIT: Orton 779 passing yards in 3 starts for an average of right at 260 yards a start.

how many TD's did Matt Cassel throw for last season vs the Bills, Lions and Doplhins?

Ask the defense.

Orton could have been starting for the Dolphins, wouldn't re-work his contract
Orton could have been in contention in KC, didn't seem interested
He took a pretty nice paycheck to back up Romo
I have ZERO faith in Quinn ZERO

i agree you have to score points to win.
but just to refresh your memory here are Matt's stats from the Bills, Lions and Dolphins games last season:

Matt Cassel vs Bills 2011:
22/36 119 3.3 1 TD 1 INT

Matt Cassel vs The Detroit Lions 2011:
15/22 133 6.0 0 TD 3 INT

Matt Cassel vs Miami Dolphins 2011:
20/39 253 6.5 0 TD 0 INT


now, what were you saying about ortan not being an upgrade at QB?

Your math sucks.

He averaged 259 yards.

Matt averaged 207 in 2010

My bad. Said 194 on PFR http://www.pro-football-reference.co...O/OrtoKy00.htm

Cool. You cherry picked the worst games. Really great evaluator you are.

So did I. I was hell against drafting Quinn and very vocal about it.

FYP.



(OK there's some wishful thinking in my fix.)

i just used three games from the beginning of the season.

you used the last three games.

Matt wasn't impressive at all as you see.

the way i look at it, it wouldn't take a very good QB to beat those numbers he posted in that three game stretch.

I wish we had a QB named Ortassel. :(

then maybe he would be a 6 million dollar QB. :thumb:

The defense had been consistently good since week 3. It's not like adding Orton helped them really.

Cassel has a higher TD% and a lower INT%. Yeah Orton throws for more yards, but other than that, what's so impressive? Orton is also worse on 3rd downs.

I'm trying to trade in this Ford Pinto to get a Mercedes. Not trade it to get a Geo Metro. Orton is another game manager and that's not what we need.

Not what we need but it is all we are going to get for the foreseeable future.

i just hope there's a gem hidden underneath Cassel on this roster.
maybe it's Stanzi or maybe it's Quinn.
thing is we dont know for sure yet.

People have already addressed these posts, but the fact is, by moving the chains, Orton allowed the defense to win games by allowing them to rest.

Cassel's 27-7 season was still a mediocre season, and he had the benefit of a healthy Charles, and an effective Thomas Jones in the first half of the season in red zone situations.

Without those options, Cassel was as ineffective in the red zone as Kyle Orton.

Orton hasn't had the benefit of an effective running game to take the pressure in the red zone to produce.

With Charles and Hillis producing on the ground for the Chiefs this season, Cassel could easily have another meidocre season similar to 2010, wwhich would earn him at least 2 more years with Pioli in charge.

Oh, and using the single flea flicker play in one game to come up with Ortion's passing yards per game average is the most dishonest argument I have ever seen on this site.

Not unless his name actually was Ricky Ortassel.

Your so called NBC crowd doesn't exist. Honestly.

I'd rather deal with Cassel this year, than to replace him with a carbon copy more or less, and waste another 3+ years.

Do you want Quinn or Stanzi to start ahead of Cassel?

A running game featuring Charles and Hillis may help the RZ game more than the backfield of Jones and Battle.

For some silly reason I think that would have an impact.

Orton still sucks in the RZ though, but I don't doubt at all he was better than Cassel. Not good enough, but better.

Cassel is an awful 3rd down QB... and that's just crippling to an offense.

The ABC and NBC crowds both have a pool of 3 players. Cassel, Quinn, and Stanzi. The crowd pulling for Stanzi or Quinn have been labeled as ABC'ers. The crowed pulling against Quinn or Stanzi would be NBC'ers. There are several here.

I'm pulling for Cassel.

Doesn't mean I think he will improve.

what if a group is pulling for Stanzi, but is against the Cassel/Quinn option.

That is HUGE in giving the defense an opportunity to help us win games. If I remember correctly the defense started to fall apart in the 4th quarter for most of the Cassell games last year.

:thumb:

I'm Thising your This of a FYP

I think if you are for Stanzi, you are an ABC'er. That's the camp I am in.

Do we still have any CBSers?

Cassel Butt Sexers?

Pawnsmoker

No, but we have a Twiggy for Thiggy and a Ball Dropper for Copper though.

If they are better, of course. But I have no reason to think they are.

The defense wasn't any different when Orton was there and when he wasn't. It's not like they suddenly started playing well when Orton started playing. They were playing well well before Orton came in.




I'll take that chance over Orton coming in and getting 3 years to prove himself.

It's obvious that patience is wearing thin with Cassel. It's obvious that Pioli knows that now. So yeah, if we're going to have a mediocre QB, I'd rather have Cassel because he'll be cut sooner. With Orton, he'd be given 3 years.


I didn't do the math. I didn't even remember that play when I copied the stats from PFR. Hell, before this post, I was thinking that PFR had simply made a mistake with their calculations.

In the first 11 games, the defense often played well in the first half, but gave up a ton of points in the second half of games on a fairly consistent basis.

How many times in the first half of the season did the Chiefs get into the mid to late second quarter, or even the third quarter in one game, if I remember correctly, before they even achieved thier first first down.

The defense wore down in those games, and it showed.
Especially against the Bills, the Lions, and the Patriots.

I highly doubt that holds true for Orton, but that's an argument for another day.

However, if Cassel hs another season in 2012 like he did in 2010, there is no argument.

Pioli can point to those numbers and tell everyone that Cassel showed that he's a good QB, just as he has pointed to 2010 to support his claim that Cassel is a good QB.


Okay, but don't let it happen again.(insert smiley)

Quinn has this look of "Why the **** should I listen to your sorry ass?"

One thing is certain, Quinn looks a hell of lot more like a QB than Cassel ever did. Not that that amounts to squat.

Didn't think my post was legit, huh?

Bill Kenney's old number.:facepalm:

Beings you challenged that Cassel couldn't do the same in a 3 game stretch, then went ahead and cherry picked your stats, I thought I'd do it right for ya...

Matt Cassel vs San Diego Chargers 2011:
17/24 176 7.33 2 TD 1 INT

Matt Cassel vs Minnesota Vikings 2011:
18/29 260 8.97 1 TD 0 INT

Matt Cassel vs Indianapolis Colts 2011:
21/29 257 8.86 4 TD 0 INT


That is a better 3 game stretch is it not?

56/82 693 8.45 7 TD 1 INT

A 68% completion percentage with 8.45 avg/att, over three games? Heh.

Admit it, you knew you were being dishonest when you posted. Admit it, underhanded and sneaky doesn't look good on ya...

Even better... we've got a Camaro in the garage!

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...Y9byKiZrjLX6Aw

Hacksaw Jim Duggan approves:

http://i.somethingawful.com/news/2005/07/15-hacksaw.jpg

Stanzi, Quinn is garbage.

Actually, Cassel was better than Orton on third down last year...

Talk about dishonesty.

In the first three games of the year, two of which you mentioned and I've bolded above, the defense gave up 20, 20, and 17 points before halftime. In the first two games, against the Bills and the Lions, the team wasn't so much exhausted, but you could literally see that they had given up. In the third game, against the Chargers, they decided enough was enough and got their heads out of their asses and only allowed 3 pts. in the second half.

You don't recall the defense giving up 109 pts. in the first three games?

Not saying none of that had to do with the offense, b/c some of it, especially the DET game, did. However, I think our entire offense stunk, in every facet to start the season. Haley and Muir hadn't quite gotten the telephone game down yet...

What's even more pathetic about those stats are his yardage totals in those games. We were getting our asses reamed in all 3 of those games so ole casshole should have been able to at least pass 200 yards in all of those games just from sheer ease of playing against prevent D's ala garbage time in those games.

I think anyone with 2 working eyes can see Orton was light years ahead of Cassel in the fact that he was actually a QB. Even funnier is that Orton is just an average QB but yet in 3 starts with a new team coming off an injury managed two 300 yard games (Something casserole has only done 3 times since coming to KC) and helped beat a playoff team with a winning record ( Does anyone really think we would have won the Green Bay game with Cassel? ).

You want some stats to chew on then try these on for size.

Only 3 times since Cassel came to KC has he had back to back games where he passed for 200 or more yards. Only 1 time did he make it a 3 game stretch throwing for 200 yards or more. Only 4 times in his KC career has he strung together consecutive games of completing 60% of his passes and out of those 4 times only 2 of those times consisted of more than 2 games back to back with that percentage. One being 3 games and the other for 5. He has had a whopping 3 games where he exceeded 300 yards passing as a Chief (In comparison Orton making his first 3 starts with a new team here coming off an injury had 2 300 yard games lol). He has had 18 games in KC where he completed less than 55% of his pass attempts and out of those 18 games 4 of those he had a completion percentage in the 40's and 2 games in the 30's. He has had 22 games as a Chief where he failed to even pass for 200 yards, 10 of those games he failed to even gain 150 yards passing and 6 of those games he couldn't even muster a full 100 yards. He has had 15 games where he averaged less than 6 yards per attempt as a Chief. Also as a Chief he has 22 games with a QB rating under 80 and since his arrival in KC he has had 19 games where his TD to INT ratio has been either even or more INT's than TD's.

Can we please stop trying to pretend Cassel has had consistent stretches of anything other than being below average?

Cassel has a had a full 16 games as a Chief where he failed to even pass for a 150 yards. There is no defense for this and it is pathetic to even attempt.

Yeah, just as soon as you stop trying to pretend Orton is anything other than below average...

It's as if you think I'm defending Cassel as our starter. I'm not, I'm arguing with idiots on the internet about whether Orton is an upgrade of not. He's not. Cassel and Orton are essentially the same QB when throwing the ball under 30 yds. After that, Orton leaves Cassel in the dust. Of course, Cassel has a pretty big edge on redzone performance, so I call it a wash. Equal guys have different advantages.

I'll take Cassel for .5-1 more year, and try my luck with Stanzi or a 1st round QB next year thanks. **** Quinn, he couldn't lead a herd of lemmings over a cliff.

Below average QB's don't do some of the things he has done. Orton was an average QB with the pluses and negatives that come with that title.

Keeping Orton would have been a much better stopgap solution than keeping Cassel and would foster a much better environment to bring along young players at all of our offensive positions.

I don't think anyone here viewed Orton as the answer, just someone we could plug in at QB until we get a guy we can groom in there. Cassel is not even good enough to serve this role.

I disagree. Orton would get too many chances. We'd end up just like the Chiefs of the 90's. Replacing one stopgap QB with another in an endless cycle until the window closes. **** that.

We do have a QB on the roster to groom. Stanzi is, and has been the best QB on the roster. Only thing he lacks is experience. Give them time to groom him, he should be ready to go soon.

If not Stanzi, then and 1st round QB. In that case, I don't think there will be any grooming, unless we get ourselves into a situation where we seriously reach like the Dolphins did for Tannehill.

I am all about the new QB whether that be Stanzi or another draft pick as well but as I have said I don't see Cassel as even a viable stopgap QB. He is a hindrance and will hold everyone on the team back in some way or another. Orton could at least get the offense moving and give more players opportunities but instead we get another season of the king of the 3 and out.

good job 3188.

i've been a KC Chief fan since 89, we've had some bad QB's throughout that period but i swear i dont think i ever recall as many three and outs as what Cassel has been able to post in three seasons.