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-   -   Life Fracking to lead to a new golden age? (https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=266988)

Saul Good 11-24-2012 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud (Post 9146608)
I'm not saying that you're being political. I'm saying that the masses are constantly fooled into believing that the POTUS somehow has an affect on gasoline and oil prices.

If public lands were to be opened up to oil companies and production were increased, there is absolutely no guarantee that prices at the pump would be considerably reduced, nor are there any guarantees that the oil extracted from public land would be available exclusively to Americans.

That's the dirty secret.

Cold fusion is the answer. Until then, nuclear fission plants should be everywhere.

Harnessing unicorn farts is the answer.

cdcox 11-24-2012 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rain Man (Post 9146750)
I apparently don't understand water filtering.

So I turn on my water tap. In my case, that water started out on top of a mountain, and then it flowed down and went into a reservoir. Then it flowed down a big rock tunnel to Denver, went through a bunch of pipes, and via some sort of magic it comes out of my sink.

At some point in that process, that water got treated, right? Someone had to filter the water bugs out of it and the giardia and stuff. Are there things that a filter can't get out? Or is the problem figuring out what to do with the stuff that gets filtered out?

I've seen simple filtering systems in survival kits that are basically a plastic tent. You let the water evaporate inside it, and it recondenses in the heat on the tent. Then it drips down and you drink it. The stuff that recondenses is presumably two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen. It contains no water bugs or giardia or fracking solutions, and the filtering costs nothing.

Denver has 30 MGD (millions of gallons per day) of recycled water treatment capacity (soon to be increased to 45 MGD). It treats water from one of your sewage treatment plants and dumps it into your drinking water reservoirs. Denver wouldn't resort to recycling water unless the water demand of the city did not exceed what can be provided by those mountain streams. Sounds like Denver is in a water stressed area.

Denver has three other convention drinking water treatment plants that treats river water. Each of those plants are between 250 to 300 MGD. So somewhere around 3% of Denver's water is currently recycled. You can read about the conventional treatment process here:

http://www.denverwater.org/WaterQual...atmentProcess/

This process is designed to move turbidity (particles that make the water cloudy, probably very little from those mountain streams) and microorganisms. It won't remove salts and dissolved organics that might be part of fracking fluids. The fracking fluids can be removed from water, but it might make the water 4 or more time expensive to treat.

Your tent style water purification system requires distillation. For the little amount of water that is required for a camper or two, solar energy can provide the needed energy. To distill 900 MGD or so would require a tremendous amount of energy and be prohibitively expensive.

Your statement about the earth being a closed system with respect to water is correct. But it is a matter of the amount of fresh water available at a given location. Of the total amount of water in the world only ~0.007% of it is in lakes and streams and ground water supplies that are easily accessible for human use. Growing population, the lack of water where people live, and increasing pollution levels, and changing precipitation patterns due to climate change all put additional stress on water supplies. It's a monumental problem on a global scale.

FAX 11-24-2012 08:48 PM

Which is why we need to be far more conscious and careful of our water resource ... not more daring and potentially abusive.

Have you ever drunk from a clean, clear spring, Mr. cdcox? Or a rock-bottom, mountain creek in the early spring? It tastes pretty darn good and it's good for you, too. I'm thinking that whoever had the pure, clean, natural water idea had a pretty good one.

FAX

Rain Man 11-24-2012 09:29 PM

I'm really glad that they remove the turbidity from my recycled sewer water.

cdcox 11-24-2012 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rain Man (Post 9147391)
I'm really glad that they remove the turbidity from my recycled sewer water.

The recycled water plant has a lot more steps in the treatment process. It takes effluent from the sewer plant, treats it, an dumps it into the drinking water reservoir. I think the regular treatment plants are located between the reservoir and your faucet. So water that is flushed down the toilet is treated by three different treatment plants before you drink it again: the sewage treatment plant, the recycle plant and the drinking water plant.

opraider 11-24-2012 10:07 PM

Fracking has been going on in the oil fields since the the '70's, nothing new.

Braincase 11-24-2012 10:30 PM

I was being a bit sarcastic when I made my previous post. I have no doubt that energy companies will meet the absolute minimums when it comes to the environment. They are out to maximize profits. I'm not an idiot. If the groundwater gets contaminated, oh well... they don't live there.

Rain Man 11-24-2012 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cdcox (Post 9147409)
The recycled water plant has a lot more steps in the treatment process. It takes effluent from the sewer plant, treats it, an dumps it into the drinking water reservoir. I think the regular treatment plants are located between the reservoir and your faucet. So water that is flushed down the toilet is treated by three different treatment plants before you drink it again: the sewage treatment plant, the recycle plant and the drinking water plant.

Interesting stuff.

Maybe this is normal, but I learned something odd a while back. I was at a conference in the mountains, and one of the things we did was a boat tour of a lake. (It was an outdoor recreation conference.) The local guide said that swimming isn't allowed in the lake because it's part of Denver's water supply. I guess I wouldn't have thought that a few swimmers would really make a difference next to all of the dirt and rocks and raccoons washing crayfish and stuff.

DaneMcCloud 11-25-2012 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patteeu (Post 9146785)
There are never any guarantees, but it's highly likely that opening public land up for drilling would expand supply and Econ 101 says that would put downward pressure on prices.

Whether the oil was consumed domestically isn't very relevant.

There is no way you can guarantee that prices would fall and it's most particularly relevant that it would be used state side.

DaneMcCloud 11-25-2012 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AustinChief (Post 9146951)
Fixed. "Cold" fusion is currently a complete fantasy... "HOT" fusion on the other hand is very real and nearing a level where we can produce substantial energy yields.

Magnetized Liner Inertial Fusion is currently the most exciting. We'll know by this time next year if the theories regarding it are viable. In theory, a MagLIF reactor could produce a 1000x return on energy expended. Combine this with the massive tech leaps we are starting to make in energy storage and you really WILL have a new golden age. It's criminal how little we spend on this research. I can't imagine any single thing that is more important to our national security.

Whoa.

You're talking Fusion. Fusion is this close? If Fusion were to be realized, not only would the world's energy problems be solved in less than a decade after implementation, all transportation would almost immediately be converted to electric and for the most part, the world would be free of human pollution.

Also, that energy source would be used to power starships and the push toward the speed of light could begin.

It's seriously that close? I've never heard that before.

patteeu 11-25-2012 03:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud (Post 9147872)
There is no way you can guarantee that prices would fall and it's most particularly relevant that it would be used state side.

You keep hiding behind the absolutist language of a guarantee.

Where that specific oil ends up being consumed doesn't matter as long as it expands the supply in the global market.

prhom 11-25-2012 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud (Post 9147872)
There is no way you can guarantee that prices would fall and it's most particularly relevant that it would be used state side.

It seems to me that whether it is used domestically, or internationally is irrelevant. It's all about the net import or export when measuring trade deficits, and that's a pretty important factor as well. If we can make more money by exporting our oil than we can by using it domestically, then why not export it? That situation implies that the oil we are exporting is worth more than the oil we are importing. If that is true, why wouldn't we sell oil for more than we spend to buy it?

Donger 11-25-2012 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud (Post 9146608)
I'm not saying that you're being political. I'm saying that the masses are constantly fooled into believing that the POTUS somehow has an affect on gasoline and oil prices.

If public lands were to be opened up to oil companies and production were increased, there is absolutely no guarantee that prices at the pump would be considerably reduced, nor are there any guarantees that the oil extracted from public land would be available exclusively to Americans.

That's the dirty secret.

Okay.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud (Post 9146608)
Cold fusion is the answer. Until then, nuclear fission plants should be everywhere.

Nuclear power works for me, but even then, it would be a massive and costly conversion from fossil fuel vehicle power to EV.

Donger 11-25-2012 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rain Man (Post 9146750)
I apparently don't understand water filtering.

So I turn on my water tap. In my case, that water started out on top of a mountain, and then it flowed down and went into a reservoir. Then it flowed down a big rock tunnel to Denver, went through a bunch of pipes, and via some sort of magic it comes out of my sink.

At some point in that process, that water got treated, right? Someone had to filter the water bugs out of it and the giardia and stuff. Are there things that a filter can't get out? Or is the problem figuring out what to do with the stuff that gets filtered out?

I've seen simple filtering systems in survival kits that are basically a plastic tent. You let the water evaporate inside it, and it recondenses in the heat on the tent. Then it drips down and you drink it. The stuff that recondenses is presumably two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen. It contains no water bugs or giardia or fracking solutions, and the filtering costs nothing.

The treatment of the water you drink is pretty complex. In most cases, you are actually drinking your (and everyone else's) "dirty" water.

Donger 11-25-2012 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AustinChief (Post 9146951)
Fixed. "Cold" fusion is currently a complete fantasy... "HOT" fusion on the other hand is very real and nearing a level where we can produce substantial energy yields.

Magnetized Liner Inertial Fusion is currently the most exciting. We'll know by this time next year if the theories regarding it are viable. In theory, a MagLIF reactor could produce a 1000x return on energy expended. Combine this with the massive tech leaps we are starting to make in energy storage and you really WILL have a new golden age. It's criminal how little we spend on this research. I can't imagine any single thing that is more important to our national security.

Oh stop it.


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