Originally Posted by patteeu (Post 10161096)

I think there's more to the story than these texts and high priced dinners. I have no idea what it is, but I think Martin being gay is a possibility.

If, when you ask if it matters, you mean do I think that would justify mistreatment, the answer is no.

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins (Post 10161193)

What a load of horseshit that post is.

Perhaps Incognito is keeping Martin from morphing into The Beast by constantly bullying him and that's why he's doing it. Or, perhaps an asshole with a history of being an asshole at Nebraska, Oregon, St. Louis, and now on voicemail in Miami, is just an asshole.

Furthermore, I suggest you look up what a connotation is, because either you're willfully being obtuse and full of shit (which is the likely case) or you have no idea what the connotations are of the words you use and how you structure them.

Originally Posted by Saul Good (Post 10161196)

I'm completely convinced that Incognito is a total piece of shit. However, there could be circumstances that would make it less reprehensible.

Martin is notoriously soft mentally. Maybe he lets trash talk into his head during games, so Incognito said that he would harass Martin until he learned to ignore it...kind of like what drill sergeants do.

I think it's worth hearing his side.

Originally Posted by patteeu (Post 10161215)

I looked up the word "unspeakable" instead in an attempt to figure out why you think it's so important for information about Martin's sexuality to be kept hidden? What is it you think is so bad about homosexuality?

Originally Posted by Rain Man (Post 10161211)

I kind of think the "more" part is Incognito being voted the NFL's dirtiest player, being kicked off two college teams for bad behavior, and being labeled as undraftable for character reasons by at least one NFL team and likely many more.

Originally Posted by Rain Man (Post 10161221)

If Incognito has a story, he'd better share it really, really fast, because the story is growing far past his ability to impact it. I think if he had a story he would have shared it by now.

Originally Posted by GoChargers (Post 10161223)

You can drop the act now, it's pretty clear why you are fixating so much on Martin's sexuality.

Originally Posted by patteeu (Post 10161215)

I looked up the word "unspeakable" instead in an attempt to figure out why you think it's so important for information about Martin's sexuality to be kept hidden? What is it you think is so bad about homosexuality?

Originally Posted by patteeu (Post 10161226)

Do you think that's why Mike Wallace has so much respect for him?

Originally Posted by patteeu (Post 10161226)

Do you think that's why Mike Wallace has so much respect for him?

Originally Posted by patteeu (Post 10161226)

Do you think that's why Mike Wallace has so much respect for him?

Originally Posted by Saul Good (Post 10161233)

I agree...but I'm not talking about the likelihood of him having this alibi. I'm just trying to establish that context could, in fact, matter.

Originally Posted by Rain Man (Post 10161244)

I don't know enough about Mike Wallace to know whether I value his opinion or not. Or whether Incognito told him, "Tweet something nice about me or I'll kill your parents." Wallace's statement seemed pretty stilted.

Originally Posted by Marcellus (Post 10161253)

My guess is Mike Wallace had no clue what was really going on.

Originally Posted by BigCatDaddy (Post 10161252)

LMAO Hooties two white knights now white knighting Richie Incognito LMAO What's up with the need to defend douche bags?

Originally Posted by tk13 (Post 10161259)

I can't believe people are using Mike Wallace as a barometer of anything. This is the same guy who pouted after the Dolphins won in week 1 because he only had 1 catch.

Originally Posted by Marcellus (Post 10161253)

My guess is Mike Wallace had no clue what was really going on.

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins (Post 10161270)

It's patteeu.

Originally Posted by Saul Good (Post 10161267)

I'm not defending Incognito. I'm sure he's guilty and hope he never draws another NFL paycheck. I'm defending the paradigm that looking at all sides of a story is never worse than only getting one version.

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins (Post 10161237)

Obvious red herring is obvious.

I'm not the one who mentioned his absence of a girlfriend/wife as though it is relevant to this story. Does it matter if Incognito is a homophobe in addition to being a racist? Does that make him less heinous? What relevance does Martin's sexuality have to the story?

Originally Posted by GoChargers (Post 10161142)

You yourself admitted that whether he's gay or not doesn't change the fact that Incognito's bullying was wrong. In other words, his sexuality is completely immaterial to the story, because the story is about Incognito's actions, which would be equally wrong whether Martin is gay or straight.


Huh? That's a pretty big reach. I was referring to your continued posts about how "he might be gay" as if that would change anything.

Originally Posted by BigCatDaddy (Post 10161285)

So you feel it's best to wait to be sure Martin isn't involved in dog fighting, an Osama Bin Laden supporter or a pillowbiter before jumping to conclusions?

Originally Posted by Rain Man (Post 10161244)

I don't know enough about Mike Wallace to know whether I value his opinion or not. Or whether Incognito told him, "Tweet something nice about me or I'll kill your parents." Wallace's statement seemed pretty stilted.

Originally Posted by GoChargers (Post 10161250)

It's not a surprise that the guy who pouts even when his team wins if he doesn't get the number of targets he wants would come out and defend a team cancer like Incognito.

Originally Posted by patteeu (Post 10161292)

No, you're not the one who mentioned those things, I did. You're the one who thinks this is unspeakable, remember.

What relevance does a life insurance policy of person who dies supsciously have when someone thinks the beneficiary might have committed murder? Understanding the motive leads to a more complete understanding of what's going on in Miami. Nowhere have I ever even hinted at the possibility that it would justify any harassment. Any "connotations" you may have thought you picked up were generated in your own mind or planted there by the similarly unjustified reaction of GoChargers.

Originally Posted by Saul Good (Post 10161267)

I'm not defending Incognito. I'm sure he's guilty and hope he never draws another NFL paycheck. I'm defending the paradigm that looking at all sides of a story is never worse than only getting one version.

Originally Posted by BigCatDaddy (Post 10161285)

So you feel it's best to wait to be sure Martin isn't involved in dog fighting, an Osama Bin Laden supporter or a pillowbiter before jumping to conclusions?

Originally Posted by Rain Man (Post 10161333)

I'd be delighted to hear Incognito's version of the story. I think we all would.

However, Incognito painted himself into a corner. He vociferously denied any role and loudly protested his innocence, and then the team and the league start reading the voice mails and texts, and documenting the shakedowns. So we know that he's willing to lie.

So we know that he was involved. We know that he sent threatening and nasty messages to Martin. We know that Martin paid money for him to go on vacation, and we know something about a $30,000 dinner tab.

So let's speak for Incognito. What reasons could he offer for these, and are they acceptable reasons? The theories I've heard so far are:

1. Everyone participated in these things because they're a team, and they were normal behavior that even Martin participated in at times. When it was Martin's turn to be the victim, he had a fragile mental makeup and snapped.

2. Incognito treats everyone that way and is just boisterous, witness the TMZ video of him in the pool hall. Martin just has a fragile mental makeup.

3. This is normal rookie hazing, and everyone has to go through it.

With #1, the key is whether everyone received the same level of harassment and whether Martin participated. My guess is that we won't see the same types of behavior toward others that Martin received. If we do, and others laughed and moved on, I guess we could say that Martin was more fragile. It still doesn't excuse the behavior and it should stop, but it makes it seem less terrible.

#2 is possible, I guess. Can Incognito produce other texts where he threatened cousins, neighbors, teammates, etc., and informed them that he would like to defecate in their mouths? If so, he probably should take some time off and get off the steroids.

#3 doesn't work. Martin wasn't a rookie.

Incognito's big problem is that his history points very strongly toward a "presumed guilty" judgment by any reasonable person. He made his bed and now he's lying in it.

Originally Posted by Saul Good (Post 10161343)

I don't disagree with any of this, but I believe that even the guilty deserve their day in court.

Originally Posted by patteeu (Post 10161320)

:spock: That seems like a strange connection to draw.

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins (Post 10161347)

Do you have to presume that the other guy is a fan of Bin Laden or practices dog fighting for that day in court to occur?

Originally Posted by -King- (Post 10161352)

So is Patteeu bringing up Martin's sexuality because him being gay makes it okay for Incognito to abuse him? I'm confused.

Cause if not, why even bring it up?

Originally Posted by patteeu (Post 10161327)

:facepalm:

Originally Posted by Saul Good (Post 10161356)

What gave you that idea? Was it is post where he explicitly stated the opposite of that?

Originally Posted by Saul Good (Post 10161354)

Does it matter?

Originally Posted by tk13 (Post 10161358)

Feigning disgust isn't going to make it any less accurate or even address the point at hand. Mike Wallace has not exactly been the shining beacon of maturity. Good try, good effort.

Originally Posted by -King- (Post 10161361)

Once again, why bring it up then?

It doesn't make any sense to bring it up if you're going to later on say that it doesn't matter. If it matters, bring it up, if it doesn't, then don't. You can't have it both ways.

Originally Posted by -King- (Post 10161361)

Once again, why bring it up then?

It doesn't make any sense to bring it up if you're going to later on say that it doesn't matter. If it matters, bring it up, if it doesn't, then don't. You can't have it both ways.

Originally Posted by Saul Good (Post 10161372)

My daughter said the bus driver was touching her little brother inappropriately...but she also forgets to make her bed sometimes...so I shouldn't bother looking into it.

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins (Post 10161368)

I think it does. We are free to make judgments based upon the evidence. You are also aware of the fact that this thread has grown exponentially today--once the content of Incognito's messages were released. He's had five days to respond and he's formulated no response. He has an awful reputation.

This isn't a lynch mob forming fifteen minutes after the thread was posted. To call it a lynch mob could not be more inaccurate.

Originally Posted by tk13 (Post 10161380)

That is quite a melodramatic leap in logic.

Originally Posted by Saul Good (Post 10161386)

Yet it's the same flawed reasoning.

Originally Posted by Saul Good (Post 10161386)

Yet it's the same flawed reasoning.

Originally Posted by Saul Good (Post 10161383)

It's a mob demanding a lynching. Call it what you will.

Originally Posted by Chiefshrink (Post 10161293)

Incognito did 2 things:

1) Used the N word

2) Picked on a gay man(hypothetically speaking until we know for sure)...

Originally Posted by tk13 (Post 10161394)

Not making the bed is equivalent to pouting, child molestation, bullying and potential extortion? That's extremely melodramatic.

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins (Post 10161324)

There is a difference between unspeakable and irrelevant. It's understood by literate people, and your attempt to juxtapose the two is transparent sophistry.

Why is your first conclusion to raise his sexual orientation as a question? You've never once answered this question. Why does it matter? We know that Incognito was harassing him because of his race, threatening his family, and threatening Martin. Is there an additional level of dickbag that Incognito needs to unlock?

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins (Post 10161324)

You stated, "I've never seen/heard anything about a wife or girlfriend." The judgment is implicit in the structure of the sentence. If someone were to rape your wife and I asked, "I never heard anyone mention anything about her clothing," what is the difference between the literal meaning of the words and their connotation?

If you can't understand that, you don't have any place in an adult conversation.

Originally Posted by GoChargers (Post 10161350)

Yes, it's kind of extreme, but my point is that Wallace hasn't exactly demonstrated that he knows how to avoid being a distraction in the locker room himself, so his credibility is very low on this topic.

Originally Posted by Saul Good (Post 10161372)

My daughter said the bus driver was touching her little brother inappropriately...but she also forgets to make her bed sometimes...so I shouldn't bother looking into it.

Originally Posted by Dylan (Post 10161413)

I wonder if Mike Pouncey will be the next Dolphin to be suspended.

Interesting stuff from CBS Sports: “Dolphins guard Richie Incognito, according to sources, was ‘the ring-leader,’ of the ongoing bullying, acting particularly “menacing” toward Martin, while center Mike Pounce was also involved.”

Meanwhile, Pounce was served with a subpoena in Aaron Hernandez case to hand over emails and bank records in involvement of suspected gun trafficking.


According to the Miami Herald:


Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/11/0...#storylink=cpy

Originally Posted by patteeu (Post 10161407)

I'm the most gay friendly straight male you can find.

Originally Posted by tk13 (Post 10161358)

Feigning disgust isn't going to make it any less accurate or even address the point at hand. Mike Wallace has not exactly been the shining beacon of maturity. Good try, good effort.

Originally Posted by Rain Man (Post 10161418)

I've kind of lost track about who's on which side, and I can't tell from the posts. I find that funny.

Originally Posted by patteeu (Post 10161407)

It's not my first conclusion. As I said in my first post in this thread, my first theory was that Martin's outburst might have been roid rage. That was before much news of the harassment had come out. Someone else raised the question about whether or not Martin might be gay and it struck me as a possible reason why hazing from teammates might last into a guy's second season. It still seems like a viable theory so, since no one had mentioned it and no other explanations have been established, I thought I'd ask if anyone had seen any evidence that would tend to contradict that theory.

We don't know that Incognito was harassing him because of his race (we only know that race was used as an element of the harassment). We don't know why Incognito was harassing him. That's why this and anything else that might explain the "why" remains relevant.

I find your attempts to shout down any attempt to discuss Martin's potential sexuality interesting. Would you have reacted the same way if I had asked about whether or not there was any news about Martin using steroids? I doubt it. You'll have to look inward for the reasons though, because it's not about me.



That's beyond stupid. First of all, I didn't say what you put in quotes, you lazy moron. I asked if anyone else had seen anything along those lines. Second, the only negative connotation you picked up was created in your own mind. I didn't have a negative thought in my mind when I typed it, I didn't imply anything negative, and nothing about the natural meaning of those words suggests anything negative. If you picked up on the fact that I was wondering if Martin is gay, then hurray for you. If you picked up some idea that I think there's anything negative about being gay, then you need to recalibrate your own head because it's got nothing to do with me. I've got 50,000 posts on this messageboard and you wouldn't be able to find anti-gay lifestyle posts among them. I'm the most gay friendly straight male you can find. And I'm not afraid to talk about it as an acceptable human behavior like you appear to be.

Originally Posted by Dylan (Post 10161413)

I wonder if Mike Pouncey will be the next Dolphin to be suspended.

Originally Posted by patteeu (Post 10161426)

The facepalm was meant to express incredulity, not disgust. I deleted it though because I thought your post was kind of an insignificant point. Since I've already addressed the Mike Wallace issue, I'll go back to the guys who find the discussion of homosexuality scary now.

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins (Post 10161368)

I think it does. We are free to make judgments based upon the evidence. You are also aware of the fact that this thread has grown exponentially today--once the content of Incognito's messages were released. He's had five days to respond and he's formulated no response. He has an awful reputation.

This isn't a lynch mob forming fifteen minutes after the thread was posted. To call it a lynch mob could not be more inaccurate.

Originally Posted by tk13 (Post 10161431)

I'm not even on any side. I don't think we know all the facts yet... so he shouldn't be cut. I think some of the responses in this thread though are borderline disturbing though.

Originally Posted by Chiefshrink (Post 10161293)

Incognito did 2 things:

1) Used the N word

2) Picked on a gay man(hypothetically speaking until we know for sure)

Both of which are wrong. However, IF Incognito were black do you think this would be a national story/issue ?? NOPE !! It would be just 1 black guy giving another black guy the "bro business" end of story !! But because Incognito has a dirty rep on the field already with many fines and off the field issues and he is white this is nothing short of red filet mignon for not only the nat'l sports media but even bigger for the majority Marxist Media.

Originally Posted by -King- (Post 10161361)

Once again, why bring it up then?

It doesn't make any sense to bring it up if you're going to later on say that it doesn't matter. If it matters, bring it up, if it doesn't, then don't. You can't have it both ways.

Originally Posted by Rain Man (Post 10161421)

When the entire offensive line gets suspended, it's the quarterback who suffers.

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud (Post 10161435)

I think Pouncey has bigger issues at hand.

Like Federal, pound-me-in-the-ass, prison.

Originally Posted by patteeu (Post 10161444)

Why does it matter if someone talks about it? Is there some reason why this particular characteristic should be kept secret?

If I asked what kind of car Martin drives to the stadium each day, would I have been met with multiple posters asking why it matters? Why bring it up? I doubt it.

The answer to your question (which you would already know if you bothered to read it the handful of other times I've posted it) is yes it matters. It matters because it's a potential motive that would help explain what was going on in that lockerroom. It would have nothing to do with justification, as far as I'm concerned, but it might help explain why it happened.

Originally Posted by Phobia (Post 10161420)

Now I have an understanding why you have such difficulty comprehending some of my explanations. I will try to make no logical sense in the future.

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins (Post 10161454)

"Do you guys think that Martin could have been harassed by Incognito because he's gay?"

is not the same as

"In all the articles and web searches you guys have read/done on this issue, have any of you come across any mention of a wife or girlfriend for Jonathan Martin?"

Originally Posted by tk13 (Post 10161436)

We at least know Mike Wallace has not shown himself to be the most mature player and teammate in the past.

Originally Posted by patteeu (Post 10161444)

If I asked what kind of car Martin drives to the stadium each day, would I have been met with multiple posters asking why it matters?

Originally Posted by patteeu (Post 10161444)

Why does it matter if someone talks about it? Is there some reason why this particular characteristic should be kept secret?

If I asked what kind of car Martin drives to the stadium each day, would I have been met with multiple posters asking why it matters? Why bring it up? I doubt it.

The answer to your question (which you would already know if you bothered to read it the handful of other times I've posted it) is yes it matters. It matters because it's a potential motive that would help explain what was going on in that lockerroom. It would have nothing to do with justification, as far as I'm concerned, but it might help explain why it happened.

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins (Post 10161454)

"Do you guys think that Martin could have been harassed by Incognito because he's gay?"

is not the same as

"In all the articles and web searches you guys have read/done on this issue, have any of you come across any mention of a wife or girlfriend for Jonathan Martin?"

Originally Posted by SNR (Post 10161455)

I just can't help but laugh.

The dude's name is Richie Incognito.

Richie. ****ing. Incognito.

A novelist who was looking for a character name for his fat piece of shit douchebag jock locker room bully couldn't have come up with anything better than that.

It's like the guy who won the World Series of Poker many years ago whose name was Chris Moneymaker. Or Usain Bolt being a world-class sprinter. You have Richie Incognito the douchebag.

Like, here's how good his name is. You could play his voicemail to 100 people who had not heard of this story in the news. And then you could ask them all the following multiple-choice question:

"Based on what you just heard, can you identify the name of this message's sender?
A. Joe Phillips
B. Dennis Philagree
C. Darrell Landers
D. Mike Taylor
E. Richie Incognito"

There wouldn't be a single individual in that group of 100 who wouldn't answer "That last one. Richie Incognito."

Originally Posted by ClevelandBronco (Post 10161471)

Definite anti-Italian undertones in that post right there.

Originally Posted by Dylan (Post 10161451)

LMAO

Murders, gun trafficking, threatening life crime, bullying, harassment and retaliation, racial slurs and hate crimes, hazing, complaints of extortion, pressure to persuade Martin’s parents to cooperate - What is going on with NFL players?