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-   -   Cardinals ***Official 2015 STL Cardinals Thread III.*** (https://chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=295296)

Marco Polo 12-22-2015 09:07 AM

It's now saying Cards are closing in on Leake. Hope it's no more than four years. Do we then make a trade for a bat? I would prefer to sign Upton or Cespedes.

DJ's left nut 12-22-2015 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marco Polo (Post 11970193)
It's now saying Cards are closing in on Leake. Hope it's no more than four years. Do we then make a trade for a bat? I would prefer to sign Upton or Cespedes.

It's gonna take 5 for the Cardinals to get him because he wanted to be on the west coast.

So they're going to overpay for a 4th starter all because they don't want to give up a draft pick. Then they'll end up using the draft pick on a player they'll end up trading to the Indians for some washed up 'bounce back' candidate.

Honestly, if they don't end up trading Weaver for Napoli in July I'll be stunned.

O.city 12-22-2015 09:26 AM

I've always liked Leake.

jd1020 12-22-2015 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.city (Post 11970230)
I've always liked Leake.

If the Cardinals get him you better hope you aren't getting the nearly 5 FIP pitcher from the Giants for 5 years.

jd1020 12-22-2015 09:41 AM

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Source: Leake deal with Cardinals expected to be in 5-year, $75M range and could include an option.</p>&mdash; Chris Cotillo (@ChrisCotillo) <a href="https://twitter.com/ChrisCotillo/status/679321823088111616">December 22, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Source: <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/STLCards?src=hash">#STLCards</a> in agreement with Leake, pending a physical.</p>&mdash; Ken Rosenthal (@Ken_Rosenthal) <a href="https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/679326292593016832">December 22, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Big contract for a mid rotation at best starter.

DJ's left nut 12-22-2015 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jd1020 (Post 11970254)
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Source: Leake deal with Cardinals expected to be in 5-year, $75M range and could include an option.</p>&mdash; Chris Cotillo (@ChrisCotillo) <a href="https://twitter.com/ChrisCotillo/status/679321823088111616">December 22, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Source: <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/STLCards?src=hash">#STLCards</a> in agreement with Leake, pending a physical.</p>&mdash; Ken Rosenthal (@Ken_Rosenthal) <a href="https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/679326292593016832">December 22, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Big contract for a mid rotation at best starter.

Could be worse; could've guaranteed an average hitter $26 million/season for 3 seasons with a nice little $105 million insurance policy tacked onto the back of it.

jd1020 12-22-2015 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 11970271)
Could be worse; could've guaranteed an average hitter $26 million/season for 3 seasons with a nice little $105 million insurance policy tacked onto the back of it.

At least Heyward is the best at something, and he wont be tasked with driving in runs in the middle of the lineup like the Cardinals had him doing. Leake has 1 year where he had a FIP under 4 (3.88).

DJ's left nut 12-22-2015 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.city (Post 11970230)
I've always liked Leake.

Why?

He's a righthanded junkballer. He's exactly the kind of guy that the Cubs will massacre. With Rizzo, Schwarber and yes, even Heyward, they have lefthanded bats that will feast on a slop tossing righty who doesn't have an out pitch.

Seriously, that's the lens you need to put this in: Can Jason Heyward hit this guy. If the answer is yes, then you shouldn't be signing him because it takes a special sort of player for Jason Heyward to be able to actually hit him with authority.

What is it in Leake's entire profile that makes you like him? The guy's not even good enough to be an innings eater; he gets knocked out of games too often to be a true 200 inning starter. He can't strike anyone out and the defense he'll have backing him in STL will have precisely zero plus fielders. Count 'em - none.

This is a bad signing that Mo's only making because he's decided that he's going to hoard draft picks. Which is unfortunate as I'm not convinced he's actually worth a shit at drafting; pretty sure it was Luhnow that did all the legwork there.

DJ's left nut 12-22-2015 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jd1020 (Post 11970274)
At least Heyward is the best at something, and he wont be tasked with driving in runs in the middle of the lineup like the Cardinals had him doing. Leake has 1 year where he had a FIP under 4 (3.88).

Well shit, for $26 million/season I'd hope he'd have at least one premier skill.

I suppose you guys still intend to get a CFer? Because if you're playing Heyward in center, you're going to get Dexter Fowler with less power and a stronger arm for your troubles. Have fun with that.

jd1020 12-22-2015 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 11970278)
Well shit, for $26 million/season I'd hope he'd have at least one premier skill.

I suppose you guys still intend to get a CFer? Because if you're playing Heyward in center, you're going to get Dexter Fowler with less power and a stronger arm for your troubles. Have fun with that.

Fowler definitely doesn't have more power than Heyward. And Heyward is a much better defender. He's an upgrade all around from Fowler, even base running which was suppose to be one of Fowlers strong suits. The Cubs will miss out on slightly more walks taken. I'm sure they won't miss Fowler.

O.city 12-22-2015 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 11970277)
Why?

He's a righthanded junkballer. He's exactly the kind of guy that the Cubs will massacre. With Rizzo, Schwarber and yes, even Heyward, they have lefthanded bats that will feast on a slop tossing righty who doesn't have an out pitch.

Seriously, that's the lens you need to put this in: Can Jason Heyward hit this guy. If the answer is yes, then you shouldn't be signing him because it takes a special sort of player for Jason Heyward to be able to actually hit him with authority.

What is it in Leake's entire profile that makes you like him? The guy's not even good enough to be an innings eater; he gets knocked out of games too often to be a true 200 inning starter. He can't strike anyone out and the defense he'll have backing him in STL will have precisely zero plus fielders. Count 'em - none.

This is a bad signing that Mo's only making because he's decided that he's going to hoard draft picks. Which is unfortunate as I'm not convinced he's actually worth a shit at drafting; pretty sure it was Luhnow that did all the legwork there.

I always thought he was good in the central. Dunno, just the eye test, never gave enough shit to loon at numbers.

DJ's left nut 12-22-2015 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jd1020 (Post 11970280)
Fowler definitely doesn't have more power than Heyward. And Heyward is a much better defender. He's an upgrade all around from Fowler, even base running which was suppose to be one of Fowlers strong suits.

Fowler doesn't have more power potential than Heyward, but Heyward hasn't shown an ability to routinely drive the baseball for 2 seasons.

If you guys can unlock him, you're absolutely right. But all you really need to do is watch him take a warmup swing. If he's standing in the on-deck circle and still doing fence drills then you'll know that the guy still can't hit for shit.

It'll take one spring AB to know if you're going to get more XBH or a better ISO from Heyward than you got from Fowler. At this point, I give it a 50/50 shot at best.

That said, if you do, then you'll get WAY more because if someone completely tore apart Heyward's swing and rebuilt it from the ground up, they'd have a potential 30 HR player on their hands. The guys natural power is absurd, he just does more than any player I've ever seen to sabotage himself. It really is ridiculous.

jd1020 12-22-2015 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 11970292)
Fowler doesn't have more power potential than Heyward, but Heyward hasn't shown an ability to routinely drive the baseball for 2 seasons.

If you guys can unlock him, you're absolutely right. But all you really need to do is watch him take a warmup swing. If he's standing in the on-deck circle and still doing fence drills then you'll know that the guy still can't hit for shit.

It'll take one spring AB to know if you're going to get more XBH or a better ISO from Heyward than you got from Fowler. At this point, I give it a 50/50 shot at best.

That said, if you do, then you'll get WAY more because if someone completely tore apart Heyward's swing and rebuilt it from the ground up, they'd have a potential 30 HR player on their hands. The guys natural power is absurd, he just does more than any player I've ever seen to sabotage himself. It really is ridiculous.

They don't have to "unlock" Heyward for him to have more power than Fowler.

Just look at their SLG%. Heywards was 28 points higher last season. His OPS+ was 9 points higher.

He's a better hitter than Fowler, plain and simple. Fowler just walks more.

jd1020 12-22-2015 10:11 AM

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Source: Leake deal is five years, $80M with mutual option that could increase total value to $93M/$94M range.</p>&mdash; Ken Rosenthal (@Ken_Rosenthal) <a href="https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/679332481280188416">December 22, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">And, as previously reported, Leake’s deal with <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/STLCards?src=hash">#STLCards</a> includes full no-trade clause.</p>&mdash; Ken Rosenthal (@Ken_Rosenthal) <a href="https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/679332631172030465">December 22, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

DJ's left nut 12-22-2015 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jd1020 (Post 11970302)
They don't have to "unlock" Heyward for him to have more power than Fowler.

Just look at their SLG%. Heywards was 28 points higher last season. His OPS+ was 9 points higher.

Heyward's was 28 points higher driven exclusively by BA - that has nothing to do with actual power.

His ISO was 15 points lower.


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