That's probably because of things said by outside sources, primarily those from Tampa and New York.

The bottom line is that regardless of who is more to blame, it's over.

All over.

You're acting like this wouldn't have happened to any other coach. You really think that with Green, Priest, Roaf, Shields, T-Rich, Welbourn, Wiegmann, Gonzalez, Surtain, Kennison, and Wesley all getting old (hitting 30+) that any other coach wouldn't have had to tear down? And you don't think that a big reason why the Chiefs' offense was blown up was the fact that the Chiefs lost 4 pro bowlers (Shields, Roaf, Priest, Waters) and a borderline pro bowler (Green)? And when you argue that they haven't found a replacement for Roaf or Shields, who's fault is that? I would argue that that was Peterson's fault BIG TIME for not finding good, young backups for them through the draft between 1999-2005. So saying that this team was "tore down" ignores the fact that this team was going to self-destruct regardless of the coach. And that problem was made worse because Peterson insisted that instead of immediately blowing the team up, he wanted to limp on with used, aging parts.

Secondly, when you blame Herm for playing guys like Pat Thomas, you should ask yourself why the team was ever in a position to have over 15 holes. And how any team could reasonably fill 15 holes in one offseason.

Finally, I've never apologized for his gameday decisions and largely conservative coaching. So we agree on that.

You can't have it both ways to say that Herm has no control over the personnel and then say that DV ruined the team because of the personnel that he left them. I don't believe that any GM makes 100% of the personnel decisions or that a HC has no input. Recent history has proved that any coach given the double task of running the team on the field and putting the personnel in place has been less than successful. Any GM who is going to ignore the advice of someone who has spent years watching these guys on the field and who will be the first guy fired when things go wrong deserves what he gets. They are going to make their own call on occassion and go with their gut. If I had to guess then CP is somone who goes with his gut on draft day, and his gut has been very wrong. There is a level of control in any coach-GM relationship, but it has to be a partnership or it will run aground very early (see Oakland Raiders). In a healthy coach-GM partnership the coach is going to sign off on the personnel decisions.

Point to me a single time I EVER said Dick Vermeil ruined the Chiefs. I liked Vermeil. But there is no disputing that the front office, with some of Vermeil's input, whiffed on almost every draft pick and most free agent signings post 2000.

Does a GM make 100% of the decisions? No. But he signs off on almost all of them. And there have been reports that suggested that Herm wanted to rebuild, and Peterson did not. And when the head coach wants something and the GM does not, there's nothing a head coach can do about it. Because the GM is the boss of the head coach, not the other way around. You're absolutely right that the GM-Head Coach relationship is very important. But reports indicate that Herm/CP grew further and further apart, and I'm sure Peterson's reluctance to rebuild was a large part of it. I think it's telling that Hunt has been reluctant to back CP but he's been pretty vocal in his support of Herm. There are just too many stories circulating that lead us to believe that Peterson was making a lot of decisions that Herm disapproved of. And when a GM exerts that kind of power, there's nothing much you can do.

Point : Herm took over an old old football team with basically no defense, and had to work under a GM who saw no problem with that. And it's true that he's only had one real year of rebuilding during his tenure here.

Counter Point : Even if he had a team full of great youthful talent, Herm would still be a terrible clock manager, poor game manager, he'd still go to prevent defense and offense with the smallest of leads, and he'd still demand the use of an outdated Tampa 2 even without the players to pull it off.

___________________

This is why even if the Chiefs do pull off this rebuild, and end up with fantastic young players on both sides of the ball, Herm still must go.

Bullseye

To me, in reality, both Gunther and Herm must go.

Agreed

Nobody knows if Herm is staying or not. It will be up to the new GM, whoever he is.

Herm probably knew the condition of the team. Could he have anticipated that the GM would refuse to listen to his coach and not rebuild the team as he should, especially after the GM was known to have good relationships with his former Head Coaches? Probably not. This is yet another case of deflecting Peterson's mistakes onto Herm. Arguably, you're making excuses for Carl Peterson, which I think is far worse.

If Herm walked into a situation where he was given full resources to rebuild, then it was not a bad place to coach. For whatever reason, Peterson refused to extend those resources which made turning the team around almost impossible.

It's not real hard to connect the dots. A good GM will kick Herm's ass to the curb. A few looks at his gameday management skills will be enough for any competent man to see, he's certainly not very good. Add his record to that and I think the chances of Herm staying are slim to none.

Anyone who think Herm is a good coach should put on a Santa suit and kill themselves.

Bingo. Rep!

That's a given, but let's work Haitian Voodoo in our spare time to insure a greater probability.